Olympia - is British Show Jumping as bad as they make out?

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I'm sure a lot of you were watching yesterday - before the SJing began they showed a lot of people blaming lots of other people for the UK not doing very well at the mo.
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Do you think it is all that bad? Robin Hood has looked pretty class compared to some good horses this week. MW has also looked good. god bless him for really going for it!!

UK don't seem to win much at the mo, but from the performance at olympia I don't think some are that far off - what do you think?
 
I thought it was a bit wierd... if I was someone who didn't know much about showjumping it wouldn't really inspire me to watch more because it just seemed to be blaming lots of people for what the BBC were making out to be as no british wins. They were showing lots of fences being knocked down and it all looked quite pessimistic. I agree with you, from the results of Olympia it seems a lot of UK riders are doing quite well.
 
we have a shortage of up and coming talent. Ben is world class, Scott Brash will be (he has produced every horse himself) William Whittaker is also top class . From what I have seen there is nobody else on the horizon.

The french were in a simular position a few years ago but managed to change things around, and it could b a good thing that we have been relegated from the nations cup and maybe we can do the same, We have to promote the young talent and hope to persuade some of the big spending owners to send some horses to them
 
I was quite surprised they showed that tbh, those showjumpers featured came across as very demoralised and i'm sure there are things that can be improved within the team / management. As with any job in any walk of life people can sometimes have issues about what happens.

I have read Robert Smith say similar things in Horse Deals so he wasn't a surprise.

Do you know what I do think though is that they also came across as very insular, immature and spoilt, why, because for all the faults in British Showjumping they all enjoy a very high standard of living beyond the means of most of their fans. Yes they are running businesses and retaining horses is key but as with any business its about making things agreeable for existing owners and attracting new ones and I'm not sure public spats are the way to go, especially as some of those slammed weren't given an opportunity to respond.

I also wonder if its a Northern thing because Tim Stockdale
( fantastic ambassador for British Showjumping and loved his input on the show ) Will Connell and Andy Austin were far more considered and positive in their responses. Andy was calling for strong leadership for strong characters but in my book strong doesn't mean those who shout the loudest, the strong ones are people who can negotiate their way through tough choices and issues in a mature fashion without resorting to personal attack and public back biting. Just MO though.

FWIW the sport has got some really strong combinations coming through and its not the death knell it appears re rider and horse power but I do think it needs a very strong PR campaign to increase the popularity. I also think a pool of money would be a good idea to try and retain horses for the nation rather than individuals. Currently if an owner is offered big money they'll take it cos some of these sums are life changing and the horse could break tomorrow and they'd end up with nothing.
 
Yes. I also think this is the first time I have heard people publicly stating the points made and it is great it was made on TV. The TV people know that there is a problem and why they asked the questions.

I have always thought that there should be one manager and an assistant manager and the manager has the final say and should, like any other sport be judged on performance.

Now is a great opportunity for a change (no disrespect to Derek) to build a team to take gold in 2012 by someone with drive and determination. Perhaps even someone from abroad who will have an unbiased opinion on selections as over the next couple of years, everyone will want to go to the major shows to impress.

I liked Michaels quote of having 'a fire in his belly again'. That's the attitude i like to hear and perhaps his drive will encourage others, young and old.
 
I think too much was made of the manager being the cause of the woes of Showjumping in those clips, the manager is certainly a catalyst for creating the right environment for success but shouldn't be the holy grail.

At that level riders should have a certain amount of self motivation no matter who the manager imo.

More should have been made of the more generic issues surrounding showjumping, the ones alluded to by Tim and Will, who felt things weren't as bad as made out. Things like the retention of good horses, poor prize money, young rider opportunities, attracting sponsorship and wealthy owners ec.

I'm still not sure that its good to portray SJers on TV openly critical of an individual, people within the sport know the score anyway, and those outside are not going to be left with a feeling of a sport in unity, who has problems but is working hard together to rectify them.
 
I think it was only one person who was critical of the manager, the rest were saying that a selection panel does not work.

What was said was an open secret anyway just that most of the time it is said in whispers and people were 'frightend' to say anything for fear of repercussions. Now it is out in the open, time to move on, take heads out of the sand and act. It was most probably only said by those riders because of the probability that they won't go to the big shows in Europe and then suddenly realised that they will struggle in the UK with prize money.

I suspect that what was said was ringing around Windsor to Claire Balding and being a journalist, saw a story for TV at Olympia. What she said at the end about one thing leading to another in a downward spiral was true and has been for years and why the sport is in the mess it is. Every sport is struggling at the moment for sponsorship because marketing budgets have been slashed and showjumping is pretty low on the radar as it is seen as a 'niche market'.

It is now up to the PR to get to work and get people to the more local shows where you can see our top riders competiting for 'free' when they would normally be abroad. Also the course designers have got to make the clsasses BIGGER to get the horses jumping up to a higher level. If it is a GP don't make them 1.30 - 1.40m, make them 1.50m. This will cost nothing to do and give better entertainment for the crowds as well as producing better quality horses.

We are paying the price for 'dumbing down' the sport instead of producing better riders and horses.
 
It is now up to the PR to get to work and get people to the more local shows where you can see our top riders competiting for 'free' when they would normally be abroad. Also the course designers have got to make the clsasses BIGGER to get the horses jumping up to a higher level. If it is a GP don't make them 1.30 - 1.40m, make them 1.50m. This will cost nothing to do and give better entertainment for the crowds as well as producing better quality horses.
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I think these points are gonna be quite hard to achieve in some respects, firstly PR are gonna have to work bloody hard to attract people to local shows, where they would probably have to take time out of work ( in the week) to sit and freeze their ass off in a mud strewn field for three hours just to see a ' name' whilst nuturing a bag of lukewarm chips and a rank coffee. Thanks but I'll pass on that one.

Re the height of jumps, as a spectator it wouldn't matter a jot imo if a fence is 10cm higher than the next one cos the thrills n spills and atmosphere are the same. The only real height preference we want to see are the puissance or six bar .

If you heigher the GP fences ( and I agree a 1.30 / 1.40 doesn't seem substantial enough to call it a GP. ) you could alienate the bread and butter brigade of rider whose horses peak at that height, you almost want a new tier of competition for those horses identified as having international potential. Why do the 'elite' horses have to compete on the same turf as the 16yrs grade A diesel horses.

The thing is there is so much that could be improved upon its difficult to know where to begin.
 
Ooh this could end up being a contraversial post...

Personally, I think that the issue we have is lack of horsepower not rider ability. We have the mainstays in John, Nick and Michael who are world class and have been at the top of their game for decades; plus we have many outstanding riders snapping at their heels and well deserve a team place - Ben Maher, Robert, Ellen and William Whitaker to name just a few. However we have very few world class horses who can win medals and compete with the best in the world.

Robin Hood is one of these, as was Corlato. However we need 4 horses on a team of this calibre to win medals - and given that horses are not machines, a squad of 8+ to fall back on. We do not have this. Hence was we struggled with the Nation Cups this year and were ultimately regulated. An absolute disaster for British Showjumping.

Not only can we no longer compete with the best in the world, our riders will not automatically be able to enter the richest GPs on offer plus the impact on sponsorship could be irreversible. However it may turn out to be a blessing in disguise, a chance to regroup. and take stock.

We can however breed and produce world class horses however we then lose them - Tinkas Boy, Rollette, Fantasia are the first to spring to mind - due to, in some cases, multi million pound offers. I do not believe we do enough in this country to attract and retain owners - they seriously need to be 'super pleased' to ensure their enthusiasm in the sport is retained. I don't have the answers but the BSJA (sorry will always be this to me) need to ask the owners or indeed look to the continent to see how owners are treated.

There has been many new series in the UK to give the next level a opportunity to compete at a better level - the International Stairway and Renault series for example - but in a recession gaining sponsorship for such series is near impossible.

Our riders were in top form at Olympia winning many of the classes. These were however not the top classes - World Cup and GP - where we looked out-horsed compared to some of our counterparts. Again at Windsor our horses (overall) were not in the same league - if we can't do well at home, where can we?
 
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we have a shortage of up and coming talent. Ben is world class, Scott Brash will be (he has produced every horse himself) William Whittaker is also top class . From what I have seen there is nobody else on the horizon.

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Oh please tell me that you are joking?
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We have the BEST young riders - we're bursting with talented young riders - all queuing up for the opportunity - but the problem is that once the YR series finishes then it's very tough to continue at that level without fabulous backup - It's extremely tough for them - we've got the likes of Gemma Paternoster out jumping big circuits and doing really well competing all over the world - Ryan Prater, (a whole host of Whitakers), Andrew Mizon, all they require is opportunity! We're bursting with young talented riders!
Kate x
 


We have plenty of good riders in this country, I am talking of World class riders, who have the abillity to compete on at the very highest level. The reason the whittakers and Nick Skelton are still at the Top is that nobody until Ben Maher has been better than them.

Hopefully a few people noticed that Scott Brash is also able to ride at that level.

The horse power thing has always been a issue, however as well as many been sold we also buy many horses.
Lorcano was a very expnsive horse from Germany, I beleive Peter Charles Rupurt R was the most expensive horse bought or sold in the UK. Tim Gredley has spent a small fortune.

I think being demoted from the super league is just what the sport needs, a good kick up the backside.
 
I'm not really qualified enough to make a learned comment but what keeps coming into my mind is compare our show jumpers with our dressage squad.

Until only a few years ago Britain were nowhere on the international scene. Now we are European medal winners and can hold our own with the best of them. So what has dressage done in this country to transform itself? to get and retain the horse power? And to have riders who can compete (and beat) the might of the continental riders?

And is there something that British showjumping can learn from it?
 
I thought Scott did very without getting on the podium but the problem for riders like him, be they young, old or somewhere in the middle is when will the next time be that he gets the opportunity to jump at a five or 4 star indoors show. If you only get the odd last minute call up for such an experience you can't compete with the Michaels of the world unless you are lucky (and that is before you take into account that Michael is an absolute genius). Geoff Billington admitted on TV it took him a while to get back in the swing of things and he has been to Olympics.
That is why our domestic Grand Prix should be built bigger, not to alienate those who only want to jump 1.40m / 1.45m but to identify which combinations can really jump 1.55m / 1.60m tracks.
Blame our troubles on whoever you like but what did the Italians do part way through the season? They got Marcus Fuchs as their Chef). What have the Belgians done recently? They have appointed Philippe Guerdat as theirs. What have we done? ........................
 
This is my point exactly though - how on earth can our riders become "world class" if they are not offered the opportunity to compete at that level? Like someone has said in another reply - if we had the opportunity to jump bigger more technical tracks more frequently then they will learn from these opportunities and there will then be more riders to fall back on rather than the "same old same old"
Kate x
 
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This is my point exactly though - how on earth can our riders become "world class" if they are not offered the opportunity to compete at that level? Like someone has said in another reply - if we had the opportunity to jump bigger more technical tracks more frequently then they will learn from these opportunities and there will then be more riders to fall back on rather than the "same old same old"
Kate x

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I agree.
The dressage comprison is a good one-ride a GP test and it is a GP test whereever you go to do it.
A SJ GP can be 1.40 to 1.60,a big difference.
We definatly have the talent,but the rider are more or less dropped after young riders unless they are able to secure enough backing to keep going.The idea that BSJA picks riders up once they prove themself is a little odd as is the lack of "levels" after fox.
Give a name to 1.30's and 1.40's,make 1.50 PSG and leave 1.60 for the rank of GP-it would give clear progression for all riders working their way up and a constant step up in class for horses as long as the tracks at each level are made more tecnical as well as higher.

As for management,I dont think the trouble lies in current people being useless,but in there being too many of them.
One person with a dedicated team to delegate to works,50 people trying to do the same thing does not,simples
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The BSJA are caught between two problems.

Do they cater for a large % of the memebrship and have smaller classes at the sacrifice of the larger classes and then people complain that they cannot produce horses. The large % of the membership money, entries ertc raised does go to support the top end riders.

Do they sacrifice some of the smaller classes and then lose the support of a large % of the membership but then we can produce good horses and raise the profile of the sport, which would eventually benefit the lower level.


There were rumblings a few years ago of a 'professional riders club ' being set up to compete against the BSJA with shows not linked to the BSJA structure.

It always used to be that you jumped unaffiliated until you felt good enough to compete at 1.10m and then joined the BSJA. With the BSJA now taking trade away from the unaffiliated shows, many of the good ones have disapeared which is a real shame, is it time for a real split in the levels again?

I personally think that a professional sports promotor needs to be brought in (such asa Boxing promotor has been involved with Darts and now snooker) to raise the profile. we need people from outside the sport to get involved because as Olympia proved, the sport can still be popular as a spectator sport at the top end which is good for sponsorship.
 
I don't pretend to have any answers but thought that I would throw down some of my thoughts.
As an eventer (at least I try to be) who works full time I was appalled to find that one of my local show centres almost cancelled the 1.15m which was the last class of the day as there were so few entries. They had 3 entered but fortunately they managed to rustle up a couple more to make it worthwhile. There seems to be a lack of people (at least in this area) jumping in the 1.20m - 1.50m range who are pushing to improve.
I have nothing against some of the lower classes but if these were brought in to increase revenue then where is this extra revenue going. More should be spent on supporting bigger classes (if that is required) and improving training opportunities.
Eventing there are always lots of training opportunities with top riders and trainers, particularly over the closed season. By comparison I have seen very little training available for SJ, although this could be that I haven't been looking that hard. I'm sure that most of the younger Whittakers are very talented but some of this has to be due to having 1st class training from a very young age. They have also had easy access to alternative training - I'm sure that some have been abroad to other well known riders to further their knowledge.
 
In response to the OP's question....i think 'no - british showjumping isn't as bad as they make out!'

It may seem a lifetime ago, but let's not forget, up until July this year we were the European Team Bronze Medal holders. Last season we came 2nd in the Nations Cup Superleague. We have riders and horses capable of winning 5* GP....and doing so (think JW and Peppermill, Nick Skelton and Arko...albeit now retired, Peter Charles and Rupert R / Pall Mall etc). We have a good crop of top young riders coming through...many of whom have already tasted medal success in YR and Junior teams...Will Whitaker, Dan Neilson, Matt Sampson, Andy Mizon, Charlotte Platt, Ryan Prater, Scott Brash, the Pavitt's and many, many more. Not only have these people moved up from YR's, they have been successful on the full senior circuit also....Charlotte Platt jumped the only DC in the Hickstead Superleague 15 months ago...Andy Mizon was second in the Hickstead Derby...Will Whitaker...well, do we need to say more. We also have some good breeding programmes in the country....the Billy Stud is producing world class horses...Billy Birr may have been sold...but there's still Billy Congo and others coming through behind.

We had a bad season this year....for sure....but it's far from being a disaster. We could certainly do with some more top horsepower....but it is coming through the pipeline. How many people last week would have been talking about Ben Maher's TWO world class horses...Wonderboy is now living upto his name ! Nick Skelton has a cracking youngster coming through in Carlo....Will Funnell believes Billy Congo is his 2012 horse and i wouldn't disagree. John Whitaker has a fabulous son of Arko just breakinbg through into the top flight...and of course Michael Whitaker seems to have a cupboard full of championship horses coming through from somewhere lol!

We probably have more potentially top horsepower coming through the system now than at any time in the past 4 or 5 years actually.......next year could be very interesting
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We also have some good breeding programmes in the country....the Billy Stud is producing world class horses...Billy Birr may have been sold...but there's still Billy Congo and others coming through behind.

We had a bad season this year....for sure....but it's far from being a disaster. We could certainly do with some more top horsepower....but it is coming through the pipeline. How many people last week would have been talking about Ben Maher's TWO world class horses...Wonderboy is now living upto his name ! Nick Skelton has a cracking youngster coming through in Carlo....Will Funnell believes Billy Congo is his 2012 horse and i wouldn't disagree. John Whitaker has a fabulous son of Arko just breakinbg through into the top flight...and of course Michael Whitaker seems to have a cupboard full of championship horses coming through from somewhere lol!


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i agree with that. there are many of the Billy stud that could be world class in a few years. i also think that Billy Congo could be Will's 2012 horse
 
I think it was a strange time to show this although i did find it interesting. While the point may be valid that there arent many young riders ready to take up team places riders such a scott brash showed that they arent too far away.
 
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