Olympic Rollkur rider Patrik Kittel

Dovorian said:
From comments made about the horses' way of going, rollkur doesn't work! Frame too low, reinback issues etc etc.

Is it only intended to produce the 'extravagant' movement at the expense of the overall outline?

Would be grateful for an expert explanation.[/QUOTE

There is a ton of information online about rollkur, the whys and wherefores, rather than turning this into a "why rollkur" bunfight ;). What REALLY annoys me is that the resulting work is rewarded - the FEI rules themselves don't actually say that the horse should be on the vertical, they say the face should be in FRONT of the vertical, so many have forgotten that. A recent change means that ON the vertical is okay for piaffe, but it didn't used to be, and, to me, is a reflection of the popularity of this type of training - including the grey area of low, deep and round.
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I am shocked to se the picture of PK and also the list of other riders who use RK. I am staggered to see Edward gal on that list...

It seems that all bodies try to turn a blind eye to horse welfare.A post on PK on the BD forum was removed!!They are all a bunch of hypocrites. Whats it all about.. I really don't know anymore??

It seems the horse is the least important creature in this equation.. winning at all costs seems to be the thing,

Unfortunately I have also just seen Christian Ahlmann stike his horse and sock it in the teeth when it had a double down in the SJ. If I had been there I would have taken a whip to the rider!God if he does this in public.. what does he do behind the scenes??
 
theopuppy said:
Unfortunately I have also just seen Christian Ahlmann stike his horse and sock it in the teeth when it had a double down in the SJ. If I had been there I would have taken a whip to the rider!God if he does this in public.. what does he do behind the scenes??
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Is that the one where it was his error anyway for not making up his mind on a stride and he was just expecting the horse to manage? Poor sod was doing its best!
 
Stilldreamin' said:
Is that the one where it was his error anyway for not making up his mind on a stride and he was just expecting the horse to manage? Poor sod was doing its best!
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i saw that. think i heard a gasp of disapproval from the crowd when he struck the horse too. It was so obviously a rider error. Very bad sportsmanship

im another whose dismayed to hear the likes of Edward Gal using Rollkur

For god's sake, if we have a rider of the caliber who produced and rode the great Totilas to such World acclaim using such a training method on his horses it seems the whole dressage world is going to hell in a handcart in Europe.
 
But none of them call it Rollkur, they would all deny using it. There is a nearly 30 year history of its development, this time around, and Anky was the main proponent of it in the late 80s and 90s. But when cornered Sjef called it "low deep and round" and said it was not Rollkur, so it all became a grey area. Edward Gal rode with Anky for many years and rode in RK, all the horses over 6 years old in training at her yard were/are ridden this way, but because they call it LDR, and the FEI have been bamboozled into saying that their version does NOT use force (no, just a slow drip drip of pressure over years and years) it is acceptable, and the grey area persists.

Until the results are penalised in the ring, it will all continue.
 
sbloom said:
But none of them call it Rollkur, they would all deny using it. There is a nearly 30 year history of its development, this time around, and Anky was the main proponent of it in the late 80s and 90s. But when cornered Sjef called it "low deep and round" and said it was not Rollkur, so it all became a grey area. Edward Gal rode with Anky for many years and rode in RK, all the horses over 6 years old in training at her yard were/are ridden this way, but because they call it LDR, and the FEI have been bamboozled into saying that their version does NOT use force (no, just a slow drip drip of pressure over years and years) it is acceptable, and the grey area persists.

Until the results are penalised in the ring, it will all continue.
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dont understand how a horse can open and use its shoulder properly when schooled LDR anyway.
How can it possibly do when its head is glued between its forelegs?

all seems a bit of a contradiction to me but perhaps the exponents would just say im not advanced enough to understand it :confused:
 
Stilldreamin' said:
Adelinde Cornelissen's test on Parcival was horrible to watch and it is a travesty that she got 80% plus. As soon as she entered the arena the horse's head was cranked into his chest and she never got off his mouth for a second.

The ugly face of dressage, when compared to the lovely flowing tests of, well, our British riders really!
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I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
 
Keen said:
I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
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I dont know a lot about dressage at that level, but i can still tell if a horse is tense, and a sock in the teeth is the same at any level tbh
 
Keen said:
I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
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*competitors

marydoll said:
I dont know a lot about dressage at that level, but i can still tell if a horse is tense, and a sock in the teeth is the same at any level tbh
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Yeah, I take your point.
 
Keen said:
I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
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Didn't bother to watch him. I was put off by the fact he filed some sort of lawsuit when he didn't get into the european team .I guess he felt the selectors didn't know their job but it seemed a bit unsporting at the time.. however I don't have the true facts.It wouldn't suprise me if he got the individual place just to pacify him.

IMHO he doesn't ride as effortlessly as some other british riders and to me he isn't a pleasure to watch.
 
Keen said:
I thought Richard Davidson's horse looked hauled about and unhappy at times ... but I didn't watch many of the other competetors and know nothing about the sport at that level, so am probably not well placed to judge.
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Well spotted. Richard Davison is, of course, one of the most active defenders of 'LDR', ie. the politically correct term for rollkur.

I also absolutely agree about the travesty that was Cornelissen. Considered alongside the low score for the correct Rubi it indicates that something is very rotten indeed in the state of dressage. It must be so incredibly frustrating for the few who try to ride according to the rules of dressage and the rules of biomechanics.
 
theopuppy said:
Unfortunately I have also just seen Christian Ahlmann stike his horse and sock it in the teeth when it had a double down in the SJ. If I had been there I would have taken a whip to the rider!God if he does this in public.. what does he do behind the scenes??
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Yes, and it is disturbing too that nobody commented upon - not the TV-commentators, not the news reports, not the ringside stewards...

Clearly, this is another industry that cannot be self-regulating.

RE: Edward Gal, there is a considerable number of videos of him riding Gribaldi in Rollkur on youtube.
 
Mondy said:
Well spotted. Richard Davison is, of course, one of the most active defenders of 'LDR', ie. the politically correct term for rollkur.

I also absolutely agree about the travesty that was Cornelissen. Considered alongside the low score for the correct Rubi .
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Cornelissen's ride made me cringe, appalling.
 
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