Olympic test event- reactions to the XC

I must admit I am finding many of the posts on here show a striking lack of facts and many are from those who have entirely swallowed the party line.
Teapot, in effect what the British are demonstrating to the rest of the Olmpic community is that the United Kingdom, one of the worlds formost equestrian nations, is runnning an equestrian event at an unsuitable venue because it has a nice view, and spending untold milions (at the lst count 60 million) with absolutely no legancy at all to show for it. Even if milions decide to learn to ride, not one penny has actually been spnt to improve any of London's existing facilities for equestrians. In fact much sympathy for them will be lost when the Blackwall Tunnel is closed as i doubt people will remember this is also to facilitate the transortation of the shooters.
Wishful, there was a list of venues drawn up, but LOCOG did not even bother to visit half of them. As I said earlier both Richmond and Lee Bridge both well with in London and could easily have been used. Lee Bridge is closer to the Olympic Village than Greenwich ( and Great Leighs racecourse in only a step away via a perfectly good dual carriageway) and is already hosting the canoeing. Richmond could easliy be accessed by the riders using the river, which is the method that will be used to take the sailors to Eton. There are other green spaces in Lodon that could have been utilised and have not been.
I do not believe that the venue will be changed now but all this syncopatic argument in favour of a venue that will almost certainly spell the end for the Olympic three day event is sickening. Wake up, the other Olympic nations do not want horses there on the whole, the cost of getting them to the next games will be astronomical and i suspect by 2020 at least one of the disciplines will be gone if not all three of them. Rio is planning on having all three but one can be dropped before that when the IOC have their London debrief thing.
 
badattitude said:
I do not believe that the venue will be changed now
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As far as I can see, there is no good logistical reason why the venue could be changed; the equestrian events are probably among the easiest to move. As I and others have repeatedly argued, moving the venue would be in the interests of British eventing and would be the best chance of keeping eventing as an Olympic sport.

It seems to me that the only real obstacle is the egos of those who run the sport. Can they be persuaded to change their minds? Or will those who you refer to as "sycophants" (I prefer to think of them as loyal but misguided followers) support them to the bitter end?

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

(The Charge of the Light Brigade, Alfred Lord Tennyson)

A Wikipedia article helpfully adds:
The futility of the action and its reckless bravery prompted the French Marshal Pierre Bosquet to state "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre." ("It is magnificent, but it is not war.") He continued, in a rarely quoted phrase: "C'est de la folie" — "it is madness."
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A minor correction to my last post (No. 393). It should, of course, begin:

As far as I can see, there is no good logistical reason why the venue could not be changed; ...
 
Orwell said:
A minor correction to my last post (No. 393). It should, of course, begin:

As far as I can see, there is no good logistical reason why the venue could not be changed; ...
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Absolutely none.

How many have waited for so so long for a UK Olympics? And now we are kept out of even having a choice of what we can apply to watch. Unbeliveable, but very, very, very sad. The UK has an incredibly loyal support network of Equine sport spectators. We do not ever expect as riders, (or hope) to attain to the level of excellence of our adored field, be it eventing, show jumping, dressage, vaulting, etc. BUT the once in a lifetime chance to see it live, in person, at OUR Olympics has been swept aside in one fell swoop by Lord Coe et al because basically the venue is just NOT SUITABLE, and by a long shot, (about as far as Mars), not nearly enough capacity. Many, many people have waited for years for this chance, and since the announcement of LONDON 2012 getting the vote still held onto hope. Well, excuse me, but bugger that. Nope, limited tickets, and not even apply for what you want. Just a lucky dip of take what you get. Tough if all you really, really wanted, and yearned for was the Kur and you got 1st round team SJ. What a cock up. What a way to repay the loyalty of the UK equine community by shutting us out of our Olympics. Lord Coe you do so NOT deserve your Knighthood.
 
However many millions spent, loss of public amenity for months, smashed trees (in an area where every tree has Protected status), and now this mess

2011-08-04-damage-to-le-notre-parterre.jpg


just for three days of riding round in circles for you.

More photos here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/greenwich_park/sets/72157627231838949/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/greenwich_park/sets/72157627355795046/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/greenwich_park/sets/72157627360524472/
 
No wonder we have heard so little about the "new" equestrian centre - they want to put it on Metropolitan Open Land - http://tinyurl.com/3b866e5

“They’re applying to themselves for permission to build on a nature reserve.”
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That is, Greenwich Council applying to itself for planning permission.

This is such a scandal.
 
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Rachel Mawhood said:
just for three days of riding round in circles
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I walked around the affected area this morning and was seized by an almost uncontrollable rage when seeing the damage done and reflecting that the Main Lawns have been closed for nearly three months in midsummer just for three days of, poorly attended, sport.

The Olympic equestrian events need not be held in Greenwich Park; indeed, it would be better for everyone if they were held at an established venue. As there is no need to hold the events in the Park, there is absolutely no justification for doing so. It is an outrageous abuse of an urban public park, a national treasure, and a World Heritage Site.
 
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Rachel Mawhood said:
Just imagine having to tackle a fence here and then having to hurry down the wet slope when competing for an Olympic medal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/save_greenwich_park/5993807717/in/set-72157627205236097/
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If you look at OS maps of Gatcombe and Greenwich and compare the change in heights, Gatcombe Park has steeper parts of the xc course which they were going hell for leather over today on slippy ground compared to that of Greenwich.

And trust me, the Open class at Gatcombe has a massively competitive feel to it as it's a big thing to have on the competition record and is run in reverse order of merit. There was a time when it was shown on the bbc too :(
 
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teapot said:
Gatcombe Park has steeper parts of the xc course which they were going hell for leather over today on slippy ground.
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The course shown on the Gatcombe Park video looks pretty tame in comparison with Greenwich:

http://www.gatcombe-horse.co.uk/media_gallery.php

Greenwich Park is small and has unavoidable steep escarpments, there is also little opportunity to gallop. So less experienced riders and weaker horses would struggle. And if the course was wet it would be dangerous even for the most experienced riders and the best horses.

To make matters worse it seems to me that safety has been deliberately compromised in order to produce spectacular television pictures. Fence 5 is sited where it is in order to produce television pictures of horses jumping against the backdrop of Canary Wharf. The course then heads straight down the escarpment. This is so steep that it was thought necessary to install a high-friction strip consisting of gravel and stone chips. It seems to me that this is an admission that the slope is too steep. It also introduces a new danger; a horse or rider falling on this surface would be badly injured. There is not really room to turn after the fence and it would be difficult to do so. Even then, a more gentle route down the slope would involve a considerable detour.

Greenwich Park covers about 180 acres and much of it is reserved (occupied by buildings, features such as ponds and deer parks, protected areas, etc.). So it is impossible to design a satisfactory Olympic cross-country course for it; especially if you consider the criterion of Universality. An Olympic course should both challenge the best and allow the rest to compete credibly.

In contrast, it seems that it would be easy to design an Olympic course for Gatcombe Park. According to Wikipedia,
The Gatcombe Estate now covers around 730 acres (3.0 km2), of which 200 acres (0.81 km2) are woodland, and includes a lake containing brown trout.
There are considerable stabling facilities, including a new stable block.
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According to the Gatcombe video they regularly cater for 40,000 spectators and, on the basis of the video, it seems that many more could easily be accommodated. The temporary stadium proposed for Greenwich could equally be erected at Gatcombe. These considerations suggest that Gatcombe Park would make an excellent venue for the Olympic equestrian events. Perhaps it should be considered as a serious alternative to Badminton?
 
Rachel & Orwell I feel angry and really ashamed that 'eventing' a sport I have been involved in for over 30 years has left Greenwich Royal park in such a disgusting and clearly damaged state. I lived in Greenwich for a year in the mid 70's and just loved the park. I have sent links to the very worrying photos you have posted to a member of the GB 3DE team and asked if they really are happy to be associated with this. I await their reply.

Meanwhile, surely there is now evidence that NOGOE can use to get an injunction to stop this criminal damage at a site that is hugely important nationally and internationally and which is regarded by very many involved in 3DE as totally unsuitable for an Olympic 3DE.
 
bseage said:
Rachel & Orwell I feel angry and really ashamed that 'eventing' a sport I have been involved in for over 30 years has left Greenwich Royal park in such a disgusting and clearly damaged state. I lived in Greenwich for a year in the mid 70's and just loved the park. I have sent links to the very worrying photos you have posted to a member of the GB 3DE team and asked if they really are happy to be associated with this. I await their reply.
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Thank you, bseage. Apologies for the delay in responding - a bit preoccupied with the rioting and looting in London last week which came a bit close for comfort - the people looting the nearby retail park used our neighbourhood as an "over flow" car park.

bseage said:
Meanwhile, surely there is now evidence that NOGOE can use to get an injunction to stop this criminal damage at a site that is hugely important nationally and internationally and which is regarded by very many involved in 3DE as totally unsuitable for an Olympic 3DE.
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I gather that the only legal option open to us is to apply for a judicial review, and although we have not ruled that out we would have to do some fund-raising first.
 
In case anyone is interested, I have rounded up some links about the looting and fire-setting in the centre of Woolwich - Olympic shooting venue just up the hill - and Charlton (between Woolwich and Greenwich).

According to the Met police, 22 of London's 32 boroughs saw serious disorder on Monday night. Woolwich was hit, too. Last week, the devastation in the centre of Woolwich evoked parts of Baghdad in mid-2003. Businesses destroyed, one building collapsed into the street after being set on fire, glass on the street, banks boarded up, burned out police car. But the mainstream media have almost completely ignored Woolwich.

Here are some photos taken by the local councillor for Eltham:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54672273@N05/sets/72157627277638855/

and his account of the "hidden riot" (hidden by the media)

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/2011/08/woolwich-the-hidden-riot.html

Another set of photos of the damage done last week in Woolwich

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39143991@N03/sets/72157627279431597/

Lastly, amateur film footage of the firing of the Great Harry pub by a handful of black and white youths, and a bit showing riot police being pushed back because there are not enough of them:

http://www.citizenside.com/embed.swf?file=v/287227.flv&autostart=true&skin=http://www.citizenside.com/skin.swf

(This was broadcast on Sky but wrongly captioned as, first, Liverpool, and then as Bristol.)

Edited to add: Greenwich Park was flooded with police on Monday afternoon, after a tip off about trouble expected at 3.00pm to one of the local traders' associations, and others said that youths were gathering in the Park. It might have been an innocent group of youths but, anyway, all but one or two businesses closed early, at 2.00pm that day, and that probably did save them from Woolwich's fate. I am sure that LOCOG was desperate to ensure that there were no tv pictures of "hoodies" and violence in the very same venue from which pictures of equestrians were broadcast only a month ago.

Here is an eye-witness account of some of the looting by someone who lives about two hundred yards away from where I live.

http://charltonchampion.co.uk/2011/08/14/charlton%E2%80%99s-night-of-looting-confessions-of-a-curtain-twitcher/
 
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Rachel Mawhood said:
In case anyone is interested, I have rounded up some links about the looting and fire-setting in the centre of Woolwich - Olympic shooting venue just up the hill - and Charlton (between Woolwich and Greenwich).

According to the Met police, 22 of London's 32 boroughs saw serious disorder on Monday night. Woolwich was hit, too. Last week, the devastation in the centre of Woolwich evoked parts of Baghdad in mid-2003. Businesses destroyed, one building collapsed into the street after being set on fire, glass on the street, banks boarded up, burned out police car. But the mainstream media have almost completely ignored Woolwich.

Here are some photos taken by the local councillor for Eltham:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54672273@N05/sets/72157627277638855/

and his account of the "hidden riot" (hidden by the media)

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/2011/08/woolwich-the-hidden-riot.html

Another set of photos of the damage done last week in Woolwich

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39143991@N03/sets/72157627279431597/

Lastly, amateur film footage of the firing of the Great Harry pub by a handful of black and white youths, and a bit showing riot police being pushed back because there are not enough of them:

http://www.citizenside.com/embed.swf?file=v/287227.flv&autostart=true&skin=http://www.citizenside.com/skin.swf

(This was broadcast on Sky but wrongly captioned as, first, Liverpool, and then as Bristol.)

Edited to add: Greenwich Park was flooded with police on Monday afternoon, after a tip off about trouble expected at 3.00pm to one of the local traders' associations, and others said that youths were gathering in the Park. It might have been an innocent group of youths but, anyway, all but one or two businesses closed early, at 2.00pm that day, and that probably did save them from Woolwich's fate. I am sure that LOCOG was desperate to ensure that there were no tv pictures of "hoodies" and violence in the very same venue from which pictures of equestrians were broadcast only a month ago.

Here is an eye-witness account of some of the looting by someone who lives about two hundred yards away from where I live.

http://charltonchampion.co.uk/2011/08/14/charlton%E2%80%99s-night-of-looting-confessions-of-a-curtain-twitcher/
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There were very few TV crews anywhere because it was far too dangerous for them. Both the BBC and Sky had to pull their reporters and cameramen out of Tottenham in the early hours of Sunday morning after they were threatened. Almost all the footage came from amateurs or CCTV, apart from Clapham where an actual Sky reporter happened to live and was on the scene.

I saw Woolwich mentioned several times on the news; there were places that didn't make the list at all. A woman on the bus told me how frightened she'd been trying to get home to Catford on Monday after all the buses were stopped; she'd had to dodge flying missiles to get to her house. She also told me that Woolwich was completely trashed because she'd just come from there.

I very much doubt anybody was giving much thought to how Greenwhich park would appear on TV.
 
One assumes that equestrians do not know that cycling will result in the closure of Richmond Park to the indigenous horse population for at least two days. The local stables do not all have access to arena space and rely totally on hacking in the park to excercise. No alternative has been ofered to them nor any compensation for the loss of business. One supposes the horses will have to stay in their stables if surrounding roads are also closed.
Also once again Rachel Marwood has made some accurate statements. The businesses around Greenwich including those in Trafagar Road and Romsey Road were indeed evacuated early one day due to advance notice of a riot. I know because I was in one at the time!
 
In a letter to one of his constituents, the MP for Greenwich and Woolwich has described £60 million for the equestrian events "value for money".

The Greenwich Park venue is the most expensive Olympic venue - and there will be nothing left to show for £60 million. That is not value for money. Very likely we will be looking at £100 million by next year.

There is no oversight. How could £6 million (in the London Bid) grow to £60 million plus, and no one says: wait a minute, think what we could do with this amount of money at more suitable site? Where's the oversight? Where are the audits?
 
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After The Mercury (south London newspaper) printed an article about how Greenwich Council is, apparently, going to apply to itself for permission to build this equestrian centre at Shooters Hill, south-east London - being trumpeted as Olympic legacy - on a nature reserve and Metropolitan Land, the paper received masses of letters protesting against it. A page of letters is printed in this week's (17 August 2011) Mercury, see page 11

(http://www.mercury-today.co.uk/www.mercury-today.co.uk

click on the Greenwich Mercury in the carousel at the top of the home page and the current edition will come up. You can spool through the pages, and also click on "archive" to get back editions.

I gather that there were so many letters that more of them will be published in next week's edition as well.

The article that prompted the letters is here

http://www.mercury-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=28459&headline=Opposition%20to%20equestrian%20centre%20grows
 
Rachel, I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors type stunt from LOCOG because it is not feasible for Olympic horses to use an arena there without a secure compound for them to be stabled. It is too far and too dangerous to hack there from either the main site or the overfill site on the Circus Field. I cannot believe that the goverment/local authority will not be challenged in court if they pursue this plan in the face of opposition and also the laws protecting the site and therefore the timeframe is heavily against them with the Games only a year away. The Shooters Hill centre has been much talked about but in order to run a business there, they will neeed more than an arena and also more changes in the local law to allow horses to hack on that part of the common. I do not believe this is a real plan, just something to dangle in front of the public who will be then told there is no legacy because the locals objected.
 
badattitude said:
Rachel, I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors type stunt from LOCOG because it is not feasible for Olympic horses to use an arena there without a secure compound for them to be stabled. It is too far and too dangerous to hack there from either the main site or the overfill site on the Circus Field.
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Somehow, I had missed that detail: viz that the proposed Shooters Hill equestrian centre was meant to provide facilities for the Olympics events in 2012. I thought that LOCOG/Greenwich Council just wanted it built with Olympics money and called Olympics legacy.

You are right, too, about it being too far and too dangerous to hack to/from Greenwich Park/Circus Field to that bit of Shooters Hill. It's blumming miles away. It's quite a trek for a human being, on a bus (I sometimes visit the Thomson garden centre that is next door to the proposed equestrian centre site).

badattitude said:
I do not believe this is a real plan, just something to dangle in front of the public who will be then told there is no legacy because the locals objected.
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The MP for Greenwich and Woolwich is still telling people (eg letter of 10 August 2011 to resident of Greenwich) that among the "tangible benefits the Olympics will bring ... a new equestrian centre for the borough, probably at Woodlands Farm in Shooters Hill". Spin spin spin.
 
It is just a desperate attempt to either create some sort of post olympic legacy or to blame those who sensibly oppose it. That would be the cynical position of Coe & co and they will have used their influence to get the local MP on side.

I fear the 3DE world regards it as a done deal and there is no way back from Greenwich. A Burghley 3DE fence judge stayed with us last week and I showed her the awful photos of the damage done during the test event and the clean up after.

She said....'But Burghley looks just as bad in wet weather' ignoring totally that Greenwich is a Royal Park, a World Heritage Site, covered by an act of parliament that prohibits closing the park to the public and bans horse riding and is one of the few green spaces available to local people. When I explained the situation she just said, ' well its too late to change it now'!

Greenwich is a totally unsuitable site for an olympic 3DE but the power lies with LOCOG and the sponsors who want a spectacular that track and field just does not provide. So, if you are looking for donations for the judicial review fund let me know.

The campaign should go viral and have a page on UTube and FaceBook and a page on just giving for the donations. Starting a charity called Save Greenwich Royal Park would take just a day and shorter if the word Royal is left out as one has to get permission to use it in the name of a charity, company etc..
 
Report on H&H web site posted today

New equestrian centre to form London's 2012 Olympic legacy
Greenwich Park, host of the London 2012 Equestrian events
Charlotte White, H&H acting news editor
23 August, 2011

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/309263.html

The British Equestrian Federation (BEF) plans to invest £250,000 in a new training and rehabilitation centre in south-east London ... Greenwich Council has applied to build on council-owned land at Shooters Hill on the Greenwich and Bexley borough borders.
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Things to note:

1. The site is Metropolitan Open Land, a Site of Borough Importance for Nature Conservation (SBINC), and an Area of Special Character of Metropolitan Importance.

2. The proposed development is not appropriate, when assessed by the Council's own Unitary Development Plan - sections SO2 and SO4 -

SO2 To safeguard, improve and enhance the character of existing public and private open space (Green Belt, Metropolitan Open Land, Community Open Space, small open spaces) that fulfil a specific function for the local and wider community and encourage full use of their facilities.

SO4 Open spaces of strategic importance (Metropolitan Open Land) will be maintained and their character safeguarded from built development and enhanced as appropriate. The only uses considered to be generally appropriate within MOL are:

i. Public and private open space, sportsgrounds and playing fields.
ii. Agriculture, woodlands and orchards.
iii. Open water features.
iv Golf courses.
v. Allotments.
vi. Large grounds attached to educational facilities and institutions.
vii. Cemeteries and associated crematoria.
viii Nature conservation.
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4. The proposed development is much larger than what is built on the site at present ("a building used as a day centre for adults with learning difficulties") and therefore inappropriate, and there is already a High Court/Court of Appeal decision that a local authority had misapplied the Metropolitan Open Land policy which seems relevant to this planning application by Greenwich Council to itself (reference 11/1765/E):

R (on the application of Heath and Hampstead Society) v Camden London Borough Council [2007] EWHC 977 (Admin)

upheld by the Court of Appeal

The Queen on the application of Heath & Hampstead Society and Alex & Thalis Vlachos and London Borough of Camden [2008] EWCA Civ 193.

* * *

There has been a huge public outcry against this proposal. Letters were published in last week's Mercury, and more will be published in tomorrow's edition.

* * *

Lastly: this isn't about a legacy, it is about 2012. If you look at the plans, you will find laboratories and isolation boxes, an equine swimming pool and on-site farrier (none of which an ordinary riding school would use). LOCOG must be desperate, with less than a year to go, to build the quarantine station for horses from Africa and South America.

Legacy my foot.
 
Read the article reviewed by Rachel ( H&H 18 August 2011 page 8) and just fell about laughing! How can H&H regurgitate this rubbish. If it wants to run advertising for LOCOG then I hope they charge them the going rate. Its very second class journalism and unquestioningly follows the LOCOG party line.

It does sound like an isolation unit and how telling that ' The College was unable to comment on the plans', but LOCOG say 'It will be a brilliant facility' Missed the BBC2 programme but just hope there was a balanced view of the situation at Greenwich and not more LOCOG propaganda.
 
Tony Ward! Brilliant and a much more balanced view than that in the H&H. We don't get the programme here in deepest Cornwall. Shame really.
 
bseage said:
Missed the BBC2 programme but just hope there was a balanced view of the situation at Greenwich and not more LOCOG propaganda.
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It is a repeat of episode 6 - the one that starts with a pile of horse manure being discovered on the pavement outside the offices - the filming of that first series predates this H&H forum thread by about a year.
 
Rachel Mawhood said:
People who are directly affected - by massive lorries passing their front doors (the pavements are very narrow)...
Well, children would not have written. People whose first language is not English would not have written (there are a lot of these in Greenwich, people from Somalia, Turkey, Bosnia, the Indian sub-continent)...
In Essex, Sally Gunnell's parents have just had to abandon their plans to have a caravan park on their farm near Chigwell - after only 600 letters were received by the local authority. ...
Sounds as if democracy is alive and well in Essex. Unlike Greenwich.
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Hmmn. Localisation of national issues, obsession, objectivism, bringing in all possible angles, however remotely connected, bit of name dropping.

I'm not that worked up either way. But as a taxpayer in the UK, I do believe I have as much right to see the Olympics in my capital city and to Greenwich Park as does a tourist to come and crowd the streets of the city I live in for a festival each year, or clogging up my local roads, because I live in a tourist destination. If it bothered me that much, I wouldn't live there. In fact, if I couldn't cope with other people, I'd make damned well sure I lived in large country estate that I control to my exact demands.

In fact, if it bothered me as much as it does you, I would be buying up cheap properties at auction and combining their gardens so as to create my own park, or campaigning against the taking over by new build housing estates of virtually all building in this country, and the subsequent social problems that policy creates.

There comes a point when obsessive arguing against the national interest becomes sociopathic.
 
teapot said:
If you look at OS maps of Gatcombe and Greenwich and compare the change in heights, Gatcombe Park has steeper parts of the xc course which they were going hell for leather over today on slippy ground compared to that of Greenwich.
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And certainly at Blair. God forbid that people, never mind the likes of our elite eventers still indulge in the old fashioned art of testing their riding skills in the Highlands of Scotland!

What a pity that so many people think that whinging and moaning and criticising is preferable to actually working to achieve something. Yes, you can pick flaws in anything (multiple flaws if you are obsessed enough), yes, some things about the choice of Greenwich are not ideal. But surely the whole idea of having it there is to site the equestrian sports right in the centre of things, and not out on a limb? And wouldn't it be great if so many people who normally never experience such sports could widen their experience by this choice of venue?

Sadly, some people are never destined to get as much out of their lives as they could do with a slightly more open mind.
 
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