casinosolo
Well-Known Member
And does this not defeat the whole object of the argument that the horse will possibly end up in an uncertain future at an abattoir???
OMG. Can't even reply to this.
- Thread starter sychnant
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And does this not defeat the whole object of the argument that the horse will possibly end up in an uncertain future at an abattoir???
sjp1
Well-Known Member
But at least it will have been looked after, been secure and not passed from pillar to post - lets face it, how many elderly people at 88 want to be passed from home to home - not many.
When my boy is old, I will most certainly not be passing him on to another home where life might be hugely different from what he knows - he has had enough of that in his young years.
It is far more responsible to have the hunt out and give them a calm and peaceful end than farm them out because people either can't be bothered, or can't strap a pair on to give them the end they deserve.
When my boy is old, I will most certainly not be passing him on to another home where life might be hugely different from what he knows - he has had enough of that in his young years.
It is far more responsible to have the hunt out and give them a calm and peaceful end than farm them out because people either can't be bothered, or can't strap a pair on to give them the end they deserve.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
Tbh I wouldn't get a loan to get a knackerman, I'd make some bs up about something within the criteria. And having lived on income support briefly I realise spare cash isn't there. But I would go without myself to fund it.
I'm not sure why hunt or knackerman defeats the purpose of pts to avoid an uncertain end or abbatoir though? A bullet at home is how many people choose to let horses go when their time is up anyway.
I'm not sure why hunt or knackerman defeats the purpose of pts to avoid an uncertain end or abbatoir though? A bullet at home is how many people choose to let horses go when their time is up anyway.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
No, death is quite certain, the horse will not suffer.
If the horse is passed onto a 'free' home, the owner does NOT know that it will be a good home. It is quite possible that within a week the aged horse will be in a market, with no food or water, standing for hours being poked and prodded by strangers before being sold on as much younger than it really is, to a novice owner who won't know enough to recognise the first signs of illness. That is, of course, if it's not sold for meat. I certainly wouldn't want that for our old lady.
Natch
Well-Known Member
Casinosolo hunt and knackerman will both do it at your yard, or you can take them to their yard and see the body if you want to say goodbye afterwards.
No vet I know only takes cash in advance for euthasia. I am sure you would be able to pay in installments. It MAY even be that equine charities would be prepared to give you a loan to do it to be paid back at an affordable rate (I have no idea if this is something they would do just a thought as they are all recommending people pts rather than try to rehome a horse who is elderly and retired).
I would hope that I would be able to see far enough in advance that if I struck financial difficulty I would know that if I had to advertise a horse to rehome I would still need to feed and pay for its keep until a suitable home was found. Advertising for a new home under extreme time pressure is surely an absolute recipe for disaster.
No vet I know only takes cash in advance for euthasia. I am sure you would be able to pay in installments. It MAY even be that equine charities would be prepared to give you a loan to do it to be paid back at an affordable rate (I have no idea if this is something they would do just a thought as they are all recommending people pts rather than try to rehome a horse who is elderly and retired).
I would hope that I would be able to see far enough in advance that if I struck financial difficulty I would know that if I had to advertise a horse to rehome I would still need to feed and pay for its keep until a suitable home was found. Advertising for a new home under extreme time pressure is surely an absolute recipe for disaster.
d_morrow
Well-Known Member
Quote de Casinosolo:
"It is a FACT that there are good homes possible for older horses, as verified by people's testimony on here."
And it is a FACT that many experienced people have contradicted this notion. However you have chosen to conveniently ignore this.
Having looked at some of your recent threads it is clear that you are a new and first time owner who has been seeking (and receiving) a lot of advice on HHO in recent months. No shame in that. But WHAT a shame that you are not so open to the thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments of people on this thread (many of them the same people) who clearly know what they are talking about and who have patiently tried to explain to you why selling an oldie is not the action of a kind or responsible horse owner.
I think what I personally have found most irritating is that you appear to be hell bent on arguing for the sake of it and have completely missed the point that it is the innocent animal that matters in this situation. If you own a horse you DO NOT shirk your responsibilities by trying to offload a 30yo mare (and that's probably in the 90s in human equivalent years) to an uncertain and possibly miserable future at the hands of strangers. You have just bought your first horse - you have not yet had to deal with the other end of it and have obviously not given it much thought either. The happy (or just plain lucky) stories on here have been told with the benefit of hindsight. If you sell a horse on you do not have this advantage. You would have NO guarantee what happens to your horse and you will most probably never hear of it ever again.
And for these caring homes you speak of. Well where are they then? Charities are desperate and stretched to breaking point. I'm sure they would love to hear from you if you know something they don't.
"It is a FACT that there are good homes possible for older horses, as verified by people's testimony on here."
And it is a FACT that many experienced people have contradicted this notion. However you have chosen to conveniently ignore this.
Having looked at some of your recent threads it is clear that you are a new and first time owner who has been seeking (and receiving) a lot of advice on HHO in recent months. No shame in that. But WHAT a shame that you are not so open to the thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments of people on this thread (many of them the same people) who clearly know what they are talking about and who have patiently tried to explain to you why selling an oldie is not the action of a kind or responsible horse owner.
I think what I personally have found most irritating is that you appear to be hell bent on arguing for the sake of it and have completely missed the point that it is the innocent animal that matters in this situation. If you own a horse you DO NOT shirk your responsibilities by trying to offload a 30yo mare (and that's probably in the 90s in human equivalent years) to an uncertain and possibly miserable future at the hands of strangers. You have just bought your first horse - you have not yet had to deal with the other end of it and have obviously not given it much thought either. The happy (or just plain lucky) stories on here have been told with the benefit of hindsight. If you sell a horse on you do not have this advantage. You would have NO guarantee what happens to your horse and you will most probably never hear of it ever again.
And for these caring homes you speak of. Well where are they then? Charities are desperate and stretched to breaking point. I'm sure they would love to hear from you if you know something they don't.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Not read the whole thread but I personally think it depends on the condition and temperament of the horse. I would never ever have even thought of rehoming my old boy without crumbling and having a near breakdown, however, some people aren't that sentimental, and to be honest, some horses may not bother either, provided they are given the correct and appropriate lifestyle.
I think it just depends.
I think it just depends.
touchstone
Well-Known Member
^^^^ I think this is spot on. I really think that if people went to the lower end sales where these oldies tend to end up being dragged from sale to sale where they might be lucky if the meat man buys them, they might think twice about passing their beloved horse on. Personally I'd rather my horse faced a peaceful end at home than possible neglect or cruelty, and having witnessed some pathetic sights at sales I wouldn't wish that for any horse. There truly are fates worse than death for some.
I also think that when times are financially good then disposal costs should be budgeted for, and if the worst happens the horse can be taken care of without worry. If it gets to the stage that you can't afford euthanasia then you've left it too late I'm afraid and that is your responsibility as part of caring for your horse.
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
Jeepers! Big brother spies are alive and well. Yes I am a first time owner. I've also been around horses for 24 years, a lot longer than some of the 'veterans' on here. I'm also not sure how asking for advice on rugs and muzzles makes me unqualified to comment on the moral issues involved in horse euthanasia. I am old enough to have my own opinion and just because I disagree with you does not make me wrong. And, yes, I do like a good debate. That's because I'm intelligent enough to handle differences of opinion
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
In that case, no one can ever sell any horse. Young horses are also liable to be sold on to bad homes. By your reasoning, no one should ever sell a horse and we should just shoot them all.
Maybe we should also shoot old people in case they end up in a dodgy care home? Or children when their parents can no longer care for them, instead of looking for suitable foster care?
Oh, and here's a dictionary definition for 'facetious' in case you need it
:http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...Ga0QWOv4DQBA&ved=0CB8QvwUoAA&biw=1366&bih=638
JJones
Well-Known Member
Wonder if the poor old mare will end up in Rhayader sale on Saturday. She'll be on a one way ticket to the meat man if she does.
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
I just find it interesting that on these threads there is a cult of 'correct opinions' and only those opinions are allowed. Anything that differs from this is patronised as naive or short-sighted.
I'm not saying I would sell my boy on at the age of 30, I am saying it is ridiculous to post threads castigating people as 'disgusting' for something which, for me, is not much more morally questionable than playing with life and death. That is my opinion. I am entitled to it without my maturity, experience and sanity being questioned.
Many people live in a nice little privileged bubble and cannot even begin to consider what circumstances may have brought about the advert. I'm not saying I know there are good intentions, there may not be, but we simply do not have enough information for a public flogging or lynch mob.
I love my horse very much, but if it came down to feeding my children or having a horse put down I know which I would choose. Especially when there is a possibility of a new home for the horse.
And, for your information, I do have experience of the 'other end' of a horse's life. I worked in a riding stable for many years which 'adopted' older horses and many of them went on the live contented, happy lives in light work for up to a decade after they had been considered 'past it.'
I'm not saying I would sell my boy on at the age of 30, I am saying it is ridiculous to post threads castigating people as 'disgusting' for something which, for me, is not much more morally questionable than playing with life and death. That is my opinion. I am entitled to it without my maturity, experience and sanity being questioned.
Many people live in a nice little privileged bubble and cannot even begin to consider what circumstances may have brought about the advert. I'm not saying I know there are good intentions, there may not be, but we simply do not have enough information for a public flogging or lynch mob.
I love my horse very much, but if it came down to feeding my children or having a horse put down I know which I would choose. Especially when there is a possibility of a new home for the horse.
And, for your information, I do have experience of the 'other end' of a horse's life. I worked in a riding stable for many years which 'adopted' older horses and many of them went on the live contented, happy lives in light work for up to a decade after they had been considered 'past it.'
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
Well, from what some people have been saying on here, it's ok if you send them to the meat man yourself. It only becomes 'disgusting' if you sell them/ give them to someone else who then sends them to the meat man... the logic is flawless
Cop-Pop
Well-Known Member
As I've just been in the position of seeing someone take a 31 year old on - free to a 'good' home and then proceed to run the poor thing into the ground because he was too nice to say no and they were too stupid to listen to anyone then unless the home is guaranteed I think anyone who gives their elderly horse away is playing a lottery with the horse's life
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
What if the horse did not even belong to them in the first place? Perhaps it belonged to an elderly/ single relative or friend and they are simply trying to sort out the situation? They are unlikely to have saved up for putting a horse down that isn't even theirs.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
In that case, no one can ever sell any horse. Young horses are also liable to be sold on to bad homes. By your reasoning, no one should ever sell a horse and we should just shoot them all.
Maybe we should also shoot old people in case they end up in a dodgy care home? Or children when their parents can no longer care for them, instead of looking for suitable foster care?
Oh, and here's a dictionary definition for 'facetious' in case you need it
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...Ga0QWOv4DQBA&ved=0CB8QvwUoAA&biw=1366&bih=638
Gosh you are very angry aren't you.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
When you sell a horse above meat value, its in the interests of whoever buys it to keep the horse at least at the same value, if not more. Whether that's a project bought for not much more than meat money, to bring on & sell, a kids pony, or a top comp horse. It's bought for a purpose, so the majority of the time even callous barstewards make an effort to keep the horse worth at least its purchase price in order for the horse to be fit for purpose. But an aged horse is meat money only, so no reason for a callous barsteward to keep it fit for purpose. Especially if they picked it up free. Plus, as you liken it to people, do you know many 80 plus people who find moving homes or areas as easy as when they were younger? Ime v old people find moving v stressful, they don't adapt like a fit & healthy 60yr old or 20yr old does. Imo old animals don't deal well with massive change either.
Seriously casino solo, go visit some low end sales & check out the oldies. Or perhaps you'd like to hear about the free to a good home ancient pony who was passed on again, at over 35 its weak half starved body caved when the novice kid owner got on, but it dragged itself up in an effort to please, because it was a genuine old thing. When they traded it in with a dealer, it could barely make it up the ramp, fell & cut its knees but still loaded in its innocent way. Myself & a few others wanted to buy it to pts, but the owners wanted it to go to the nice retirement home the dealer promised. Despite us checking local sales, we never found it. Hopefully it went straight to an abbatoir rather than live export. And I wish that was my only experience of oldies given away free to a 'good home'. Worthless foals at sales are sad. But they don't know any different. But the innocence of a once loved oldie, who thinks all people will be nice to it is a million times worse. One of the most heart wrenching sights I've seen was a meatman checking out two ancient mares, one of the mares tried to check his pocket for treats, the other rubbed her head on him. Mine will never experience that, just so I can bs myself that they weren't ready to pts.
Seriously casino solo, go visit some low end sales & check out the oldies. Or perhaps you'd like to hear about the free to a good home ancient pony who was passed on again, at over 35 its weak half starved body caved when the novice kid owner got on, but it dragged itself up in an effort to please, because it was a genuine old thing. When they traded it in with a dealer, it could barely make it up the ramp, fell & cut its knees but still loaded in its innocent way. Myself & a few others wanted to buy it to pts, but the owners wanted it to go to the nice retirement home the dealer promised. Despite us checking local sales, we never found it. Hopefully it went straight to an abbatoir rather than live export. And I wish that was my only experience of oldies given away free to a 'good home'. Worthless foals at sales are sad. But they don't know any different. But the innocence of a once loved oldie, who thinks all people will be nice to it is a million times worse. One of the most heart wrenching sights I've seen was a meatman checking out two ancient mares, one of the mares tried to check his pocket for treats, the other rubbed her head on him. Mine will never experience that, just so I can bs myself that they weren't ready to pts.
LMJ
Well-Known Member
I am sadly coming home from holiday tomorrow knowing its time to let our darling little 32 year old forester go as he isn't coping well in the mud and the lami episodes (however mild) are getting more frequent as he also has Cushings and chronic arthritis. Would never have let him left our care for an unknown future.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Well, from what some people have been saying on here, it's ok if you send them to the meat man yourself. It only becomes 'disgusting' if you sell them/ give them to someone else who then sends them to the meat man... the logic is flawless
Not many people on here send their oldies to the meat man.
I for one lead mine round the corner from the stables and hold them while their shot dignified, painless and stress free for the horse.
Hen
Well-Known Member
^^^^ Agree ^^^^
Original posting didn't even seem to be looking to sell for financial gain so postings about 'putting self first' are arrogant.
When push comes to shove for sure I will look to see what positive options there are for my horses before resorting to the negative ones.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
Casino solo- 'privileged bubble', Pmsl, brilliant. Having lived way below what the government consider the minimum, nobody needs to choose between the cost of a bullet & feeding their kids. Silly shock tactics don't work I'm afraid.
And where has anyone recommended sending it to an abbatoir themselves? I assume as you are so experienced with the way the horse world works you are aware that having the hunt or knackerman out is not the same as an abbatoir?
And where has anyone recommended sending it to an abbatoir themselves? I assume as you are so experienced with the way the horse world works you are aware that having the hunt or knackerman out is not the same as an abbatoir?
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Absolutely agree with littlelegs. There are so many Old horses at the lower end sales, none of them are going to a happy retirement home from there. We keep all our retirees until their quality of life is so compromised that it is likely to be unfair.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
Putting self first doesn't mean for cash gain imo. It means instead of facing the harsh reality of what is in the horses best interests, you bury your head in the sand & convince yourself rehoming is a nice idea.
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
Hence my use of the word 'some people' and not 'little legs.' However, there are people on here who are so priviliged that I don't believe they see their own snobbery. Hence the frequent castigation of sites like Dragon Driving with absolutely no problem with similar 'cruelty' going on in the racing world.
It's not a silly shock tactic. In a healthy debate you need someone to play devil's advocate. If not, we would all just be on here with the mentality of a lynch mob jumping on a band wagon screaming 'let's have us a public floggin.''
People need to have their views questioned in order for the debate to become more articulate and more well reasoned. I must say, you have articulated your views very well, I do however not choose to agree with them.
And I must add that to staunchly deny that people on here are arrogant, and then in the same breath sneer 'you're not very experienced are you' is irony itself. My theory is borne out even more by this.
One does not need 'direct experience' of a moral dilemma to hold a viewpoint on it. I am not a victim of a murderer, an abuser or a fraudster but this does not mean I am 'too inexperienced' to hold views on such matters.
Whether you think it goes without saying or not, the euthanasia of a healthy horse IS a moral issue and should be debated in a healthy manner. You can't just patronise and belittle someone who disagrees until they agree with you.
My views on horse euthanasia are influenced by my experiences but also by my personal moral code, principles and religious beliefs. I am not saying these are the only 'right' ones, I'm sure you have different ones, but they are mine. Therefore I am unlikely to change my mind simply because you tell me I must, aren't I?
And yes, I do understand the difference between the knackerman and an abatoir. Tbh there is not so much of a distinguishable difference that makes one more morally acceptable than the other.
casinosolo
Well-Known Member
Not at all! I love a healthy debate
I run a debating club in my school and I must say I think this might be next week's topic. I must say I am rather enjoying myself.casinosolo
Well-Known Member
Actually, I've changed my mind. You're right. I'll get some pitch forks, torches and a mob of angry townsfolk. Can you bring the matches?
Flame_
Well-Known Member
It isn't death at the hands of the meat man I'd have a problem with at all. I'm sure professional slaughtermen do a good job, its the time while the horse is alive that matters. My old pony was pts last week and for me it was imperative that she had a normal, stress free, comfortable (on painkillers) day. She went out happy and relaxed.
Some horses can load up and explore in a relaxed fashion, and taking them to a slaughterhouse could see them finish up their life without stress. The reason not to pass on horses isn't because someone might kill them, its because they might not when they'd be better off dead! They might work them, they might not give them pain relief when they start to need it, they might try to breed them, they might export them, frighten them, not have the experience to see when they are struggling....
30 year olds rarely appeal to people who know better than to think buying a 30 year old is a wise idea, they are more often bought by novices who turn them out in large herds to have to fight for position and deal with bullies, don't understand about unsoundness and fitness for work, have no idea about the particular needs of older horses... It doesn't bear thinking about. Can you imagine your oldie doing the rounds of markets and then winding up in one of these housing estate riding schools, lame, poor and still trundling round with some numpty because it just doesn't have it in it to say no? That is what you risk exposing them to if you pass them on.
Some horses can load up and explore in a relaxed fashion, and taking them to a slaughterhouse could see them finish up their life without stress. The reason not to pass on horses isn't because someone might kill them, its because they might not when they'd be better off dead! They might work them, they might not give them pain relief when they start to need it, they might try to breed them, they might export them, frighten them, not have the experience to see when they are struggling....
30 year olds rarely appeal to people who know better than to think buying a 30 year old is a wise idea, they are more often bought by novices who turn them out in large herds to have to fight for position and deal with bullies, don't understand about unsoundness and fitness for work, have no idea about the particular needs of older horses... It doesn't bear thinking about. Can you imagine your oldie doing the rounds of markets and then winding up in one of these housing estate riding schools, lame, poor and still trundling round with some numpty because it just doesn't have it in it to say no? That is what you risk exposing them to if you pass them on.
Rueysmum
Well-Known Member
Well, from what some people have been saying on here, it's ok if you send them to the meat man yourself. It only becomes 'disgusting' if you sell them/ give them to someone else who then sends them to the meat man... the logic is flawless
There is a huge difference between having the knackerman or hunt come out to your horse's home and putting the horse down in familiar surroundings and sending him/her to a sale where they will be dragged around, bought by the meat man and then shot in an abattoir.
If you were very elderly, would you not prefer to die at home instead of travelling to a terrifying execution chamber?
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
copied from preloved,
I'm looking for a new home for my x broodmare she is 25 Appaloosa who would make a great field companion she has arthritis in her knees but cider vin helps massively she could be ridden by a lightweight adult or children if brought back into work, she loves fuss cuddles and people if anyone interested in giving my old lady a home where she will b loved and pampered pls get in touch, to assure genuin home we are asking for £100 this will include her halter lead rope and medium weight turnout and fleece.
so what do you think will happen to this mare casinosolo? as i see it there is a 50% chance she will end up in a good home, the other 50% option is that she'll get picked up for the measly sum of £100 and either be sold on as fit and healthy for a higher sum or she'll get bought and ridden through her pain until she can give no more and ends up being pts or perhaps passed on again
there are nice homes out there for retired horses but they are far and few between, even asking £100 is not going to ensure this girl a good home, it might ensure the buyer gets their £100 worth of fun out of her before they give up on her too
I'm looking for a new home for my x broodmare she is 25 Appaloosa who would make a great field companion she has arthritis in her knees but cider vin helps massively she could be ridden by a lightweight adult or children if brought back into work, she loves fuss cuddles and people if anyone interested in giving my old lady a home where she will b loved and pampered pls get in touch, to assure genuin home we are asking for £100 this will include her halter lead rope and medium weight turnout and fleece.
so what do you think will happen to this mare casinosolo? as i see it there is a 50% chance she will end up in a good home, the other 50% option is that she'll get picked up for the measly sum of £100 and either be sold on as fit and healthy for a higher sum or she'll get bought and ridden through her pain until she can give no more and ends up being pts or perhaps passed on again
there are nice homes out there for retired horses but they are far and few between, even asking £100 is not going to ensure this girl a good home, it might ensure the buyer gets their £100 worth of fun out of her before they give up on her too
Rueysmum
Well-Known Member
copied from preloved,
I'm looking for a new home for my x broodmare she is 25 Appaloosa who would make a great field companion she has arthritis in her knees but cider vin helps massively she could be ridden by a lightweight adult or children if brought back into work, she loves fuss cuddles and people if anyone interested in giving my old lady a home where she will b loved and pampered pls get in touch, to assure genuin home we are asking for £100 this will include her halter lead rope and medium weight turnout and fleece.
so what do you think will happen to this mare casinosolo? as i see it there is a 50% chance she will end up in a good home, the other 50% option is that she'll get picked up for the measly sum of £100 and either be sold on as fit and healthy for a higher sum or she'll get bought and ridden through her pain until she can give no more and ends up being pts or perhaps passed on again
there are nice homes out there for retired horses but they are far and few between, even asking £100 is not going to ensure this girl a good home, it might ensure the buyer gets their £100 worth of fun out of her before they give up on her too
It's actually more likely that someone will pose as a genuine horse lover anxious to give the mare a good home and will hand over the £100 with lots of false smiles and tall tales. Within 24 to 48 hours she will then be sold on to an abattoir where the false nicey, nicey buyer will make a quick £100-£150 profit.