OMG findus has 60-100% horsemeat in their lasagne!!

Leviathan said:
I do not care how you spell it thank you.:rolleyes:

Ridiculous slandering comment saying the vegetarian society would not know what is in their foods.

It is not worth my while continuing this line of conversation. Unless you can info to back up that statement.
The vege society has been going a lot longer than you have been alive. I think enough vege's trust this society a lot more than they can trust your far fetched comments.


So do continue with your one man bandit crusade, just do not expect us to listen or believe anything you say .:rolleyes:

Well one things for sure I am sure glad I do not work for Tesco's anymore if your one of their staff, Wow its gone down hill since I left.
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Blimey this is all a bit OTT isn't it?

I don't think any of us can be 100% certain of anything that goes into food.
 
tescoexpress said:
I was listening to Jeremy Vine earlier (difficult as always as his phone-in always attracts the nut-jobs) and one person said they were switching to only buying from their local butcher. That made me think as 100m from my local butcher is a "static" (unmoving member of the itinerant community) who breeds ponies and horses (that is to say he has loads and ties them up on grass verges and even the garden of a block of flats next door to the County Police HQ). I have speculated before as to why he has so many (there must be 20 or so at a time) and where they go to.
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I think that you are perhaps jumping the gun a bit there!
 
What you grow yourself or breed you know what goes into them, my potatoes last year were great leeks not so and the carrots none excitant, but that's the way of growing your own.
 
Moomin1 said:
Blimey this is all a bit OTT isn't it?

I don't think any of us can be 100% certain of anything that goes into food.
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What part is over the top? TescoExpress saying the Vegetarian Society probably could put meat additives in the food or me saying . They wont???:rolleyes:
I am responding to their silly post so no its not OTT.

I am sure if TescoExpress want to accuse The Vegetarian Society of doing this they would be more than happy to answer them.
 
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There are 4 issues here. 1. If a product is labelled as BEEF, it should be BEEF. Not 100% HORSE. This is fraud.
2. The drive for "cheap" meat/food. People should care what they put into their bodies and be prepared to pay correctly for meat.this involves the cost of rearing correctly. Remember Hugh what's-his-name campaigning against being able to buy a whole chicken for something ridiculous, but it seems the majority just want cheap food.
3.i don't have an issue with horse meat. As long as the welfare standards are good enough. Great Britain export thousands of horses every year for slaughter, same as we do for other livestock. The conditions are not good enough.
4. This raises questions about what are actually buying and how much we don't know about our food. Yes even vegetarians, unless you only eat what you grow. What chemicals, additives, etc are used in the production of our food?
 
Milliemoomie, these mirror my opinions exactly. I have no issue with eating horse... So ,long as I know I'm eating it. I wonder if as an individual we are now able to sue the manufacturer of these products we have all been eating? Its only a matter of time before someone tries...
 
Moomin1 said:
.......

I don't think any of us can be 100% certain of anything that goes into food.
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I agree with you.

I worked for a while for the largest producer of turkeys in this country, and if you knew what went on, sometimes with the blessing of the FSA, sometimes with a blind eye turned, and sometimes with a blatant disregard for the Law, then you would be staggered.

My employers at that time were generally considered to be amongst the better poultry processors, so just what the rest were like, doesn't bare thinking about. I'm a competent slaughterman, so my refusal to eat their products isn't from a fluffy or a quaint standpoint. I wont eat processed poultry, and if you were aware of what goes on, neither would you.

The problem itself, arises because there is an ever increasing demand for the cutting of costs, as the producers vie with each other for an expanding share of the market place, a market place and a customer base which is "Buyer directed". Consider the single parent girl who's living on benefits, she has two small children, and even though she lives life in a frugal fashion, the pennies matter, and what she saves on food, can be used to cloth and keep her children warm, and however misguided some may say that she is, she has my sympathy.

With the cutting of costs, so there is a lowering of all standards, and not just the standards which affect the production, but those of welfare, and the value, from an intrinsic standpoint. I sometimes wonder what we're doing.

Just a thought for those who consider our world, and what we ingest through our food systems; "Did you know, that as we obviously can't predict with any real accuracy, a long term weather forecast, and as we apply nitrates to our cereal crops, and then if we've got it wrong, and we have prolonged periods of rain, and if our milling wheat takes off and bolts in its growth, then we apply growth stunting chemicals to the crop"? It could be argued that it is a simple business expedience. It could also be argued that there is in fact a residual effect of the chemical, and it's damaging us. It could also be argued that with an expanding world population, and a shrinking established growing platform, we have to reach our goals by what ever route we can, and turn a blind eye to the risks.

Whilst I believe that I see what's wrong, I've no answers.

Alec.
 
MillyMoomie said:
There are 4 issues here. .......

I accept your points, without question, BUT.......

.......
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... if instead of horse meat, healthy and correctly farmed venison had been substituted, would you still be up in arms? To claim meat to be Beef, when it's Horse or Pork or Venison, is fraud, that I accept, but if we're ignoring of the fraud aspect, has the fact that we've eaten horse meat actually done us any harm?

Alec.
 
MillyMoomie said:
Alec I don't understand your question.
As you can see from my post I do not have an issue with horse meat as such as long as .... etc etc etc....
Can you please clarify
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You've now answered my question, I think. Unless I misunderstand you, your issue isn't with the fact that horse meat, per se has been used, but that the goods have been misrepresented and sold fraudulently. Yes? In which case, I agree with you.

Alec.
 
MillyMoomie said:
Yes even vegetarians, unless you only eat what you grow. What chemicals, additives, etc are used in the production of our food?
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Most of us vegetarians know exactly what "E" Numbers and additives we are allowed to eat .

http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=728

I for one always check the label before buying.

http://www.veggieglobal.com/nutrition/non-vegetarian-food-additives.htm





whey. It's now nice and simple and I can just boycott Mars…
Vegetarian

Mars (Standard, Duo, Snacksize)
Snickers (Standard, Duo, Snacksize)
Galaxy (Milk Chocolate Bars, Snacksize, Ripple, Minstrels)
Maltesers (Milk, White)
Revels
Tracker (Burst of Berries, Zingy Lemon, Roast Nut, Choc Chip)
Starburst (Chews Original/Strawberry Mix/Sours/Choozers)
Aquadrops
Lockets
Tunes

Drinks

Marks Original Refuel Drink
Galaxy Creamiest
Maltesers
Bounty
Starburst Banana/Orange and Pineapple
Twix Super Thick Shake
Moment du Chocolat

Ice Cream

None

Not Vegetarian

Everything else, which includes things like:
Confectionery

Bounty Dark / Milk
Celebrations
Flyte
Galaxy Promises Cocoa Crisp/Caramel Crunch/Roast Hazelnut/Rich Coffee
M&M's All Varieties
Mars Delight
Mars Planets
Milky Way / Crispy rolls / Magic Stars
Skittles Sours / Rainbow
Topic
Twix

Drinks

Galaxy Hot Chocolate
Starburst Strawberry/Raspberry
M&M's shake
Moment du Chocolat with marshmallows

Ice Cream

All of them, including: Bounty Ice Cream
Galaxy Caramel Swirl Ice Cream / Vanilla / Triple Choc
Maltesers Ice Cream
Mars Ice Cream / Xtra Ice Cream
Snickers Ice Cream / Xtra Ice Cream
 
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Millymoonie I agree with most of what you've said except the issue of people wanting cheap food being to blame in these particular cases. Supermarkets and fast food restaurants will want to maximise profits no matter what the price of the end product so they will always be pushing producers and suppliers to reduce their prices. They (supermarkets and restaurants) have the responsibility to ensure that they don't sacrifice the quality of what they are being supplied with by their demand to maximise their profits.

The bizarre thing is the meat in both the Findus case and the Irish case (if what I read is true) had been through 5 or 6 hands before it would even reach the consumer. Presumably each company that handled these meat products had to make a profit? It does not seem on the face of it a good way to keep cost downs and ensure the quality/safety of the end product. The guy from Morrisons say they have their own abatoirs and producers, that seems a better way?
However I do wish people would buy better meat and spend less on sweets, crisps and fizzy drinks if only for the sake of better animal welfare.
 
I am more surprised that there is actually any meat in the rubbish mashed meat goods never mind 60-100%
The issue isnt the use of horse meat in both and pork in halal meat it is the fraud Officially in France horsemeat is very much more expensive than beef so I dont get it it must be some sort of blackmarket meat

I am not bothered about it being horsemeat just the traceability I dont eat mushed up meat anyway I even mince my own minced beef for sauces and pies I hate beefburgers and always have. I think I probably have eaten cat though I once had a chicken dish form a chinese restaurant that was a distinctly glutinous and jelly like very not chicken texture didnt get it there again and couldnt eat it after the first mouthful
 
Just like processed horse feeds they can put anything in those mushed up things and you aren't any the wiser. I stay away from prossesed foods / feeds as much as I can but its hard with so much processing going on these days.
 
My view Re the the recent debacle and points raised.

Mislabelling is fraud yes and I would be as aghast as any Muslim or Jewish person who had eaten pork if I found out I had eaten horse. Its my perogative.

Would it have done me any harm if I had eaten horseburger or lasagne? Well as the powers that be only test1.86% of horses going through UK abattoirs for Bute, and I have no idea what tests are done on meat in the EU or elsewhere, so I would be worried.

Welfare is a big issue, well for me it is we seem to be suspect of foreign attitudes to animal welfare but the recent evidence from Turners shows we cant get it right here. How many on this forum have sent a horse to Turners and would do so again if they were not present? It would be interesting to see if anyone answers this yes.

Lastly, I want to eat prime meat, not the largely sick and sorry creatures that must form a large proportion of equines going to meet their end for the food chain. I will stick to British beef and support local farmers.

As for folks on low incomes buying ready meals, Ive been in this situation myself and its still far cheaper to make meals using butchers meat than processed junk. If theres more than a tablespoon full of meat in the average ready meal Ill eat my cat :) Believe me if youre REALLY skint you can work out in no time how far half a kilo of mince will go...and you can stretch it a loooonnng way. Ready meals and processed foods are largely laziness imo.

Theres more to this Im sure as its said where theres a hook theres a crook. Cheval may be more expensive on the continent but what price the UK horses? From what Ive seen the majority have not been farm bred for the table they are the old, the sick, the injured and the LOU creatures. So much for haute cuisine a la Francais.
 
windand rain said:
I think I probably have eaten cat though I once had a chicken dish form a chinese restaurant that was a distinctly glutinous and jelly like very not chicken texture didnt get it there again and couldnt eat it after the first mouthful
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More likely eel-apparently cat is a bit like rabbit in texture. :eek: Yuk.:(

I wonder just how cheap this dodgy horsemeat is? Each time it's changed hands, it's making money-but it still ends up in the low budget crap. Someone from one of the companies involved (forget who now) said it (the contamination if you like) wasn't accidental. I'm inclined to believe him. At some point, someone would have seen a horse carcass going where a beef carcass should have been-and said nothing.
 
Chicken meat for the Chinese takeaway market is usually processed, rather like the reformed ham you can buy at supermarkets. Chopped and shaped is the usual term.
 
So today they showed the horrendous journey that the meat went through before ending up in the UK. I can't remember the entire details but it was something like 4 different countries before it ended up here.

I am watching all the news carefully and have a very very strong suspicion that we really are being drip fed the truth for this. Now the media is saying that organised crime is involved. There seems to be a complete blanket on admitting that UK horses ended up in the food chain at this time.

I don't like the idea of eating horse, freely admit that is hypocritical of me as I happily eat chicken, beef etc. If someone else wants to, then that is their choice. I do not eat as much meat as I used to so that I can pay for better quality meat and mostly use my local butcher. I have always felt that you need to respect what you eat and that an animal should have a good level of care and slaughter. I can't be 100% sure I have always eaten properly but I have tried.

I was being quite self righteous about this drama to start with as do not eat processed food as a rule (ha ha, does not effect me!). Till my good friends pointed out (thanks guys!) that at any event we have been to, I happily scoff down what we call a dirt burger after competing so its highly likely I too have eaten horse.

I took my own food with me yesterday when we went out with the horses!
 
As well as all the excellent points made already about provenance, welfare, mis-labelling fraud, you get what you pay for where meat is concerned etc, I would also be concerned that there will be long-term welfare implications for our horses, as if the tested meat has been found to contain traces of bute and our so-called equine passport legislation is patently failing in its job, then the easy answer to prevent the risk to humans from bute inadvertently or criminally entering the foodchain is to ban bute across the EU. :(
 
I am awaiting the results of the testing later this week, but I don't think the horses in question are going to be from the uk, Europe rears horses for this purpose and I think this will be more the case- but I could be wrong. Horses here are generally the older/ ill/ lame ones that go to the knackers yard, not the best breeds for meat production I would think. I don't think bute ban will be even contemplated- it shouldn't be if the govt have any sense. What needs to be investigated is why are we all being lied to and who ultimately have authorised horse meat to be used in place of beef and has not been found out until now- !
 
I hope you're right, Milanesa, but given the history of the EU's efforts to ban bute in all food-production animals (which under their guidelines includes horses), I fear you might have more faith in either the 'sense' or the clout of our Government to resist if the subject is raised again, given that a scandal like this weakens our counter-position.
 
Milanesa said:
I am awaiting the results of the testing later this week, but I don't think the horses in question are going to be from the uk, Europe rears horses for this purpose and I think this will be more the case- but I could be wrong. Horses here are generally the older/ ill/ lame ones that go to the knackers yard, not the best breeds for meat production I would think. I don't think bute ban will be even contemplated- it shouldn't be if the govt have any sense. What needs to be investigated is why are we all being lied to and who ultimately have authorised horse meat to be used in place of beef and has not been found out until now- !
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A good post, and I agree. I'd add that where horses are reared, with the same attention as we would give to cattle, I'd be very surprised to hear that Bute was used, on a particularly large scale, so I think that the risk of its inclusion is very slight.

What I find surprising is that our food retailers, Tescos and others, have been so slow to test, or to get assurances from THEIR suppliers that when they claim that beef is the ingredient, then that's what it is, and not horse. The question of horse meat being in our processed foods has been about for some while, certainly long enough for in-house enquiries to be made. I suspect a degree of complicity.

Alec.
 
I am doubting that the meat will contain much Bute at all, I've heard they're mostly going to have been Europe horses, mostly from/processed in Romania. After seeing a lot of the evidence released to the public of the conditions many of these horses have to endure, I'm doubting they will have been given Bute (though of course it depends where they came from)

The whole business is very sad. I don't eat any beef products (or, packaged as 'beef' should I say!) as I don't like the taste, but I feel sad that it seems that many, many horses included in these products must have suffered.

The whole thing is shocking and it makes me wonder if horse will become a part of the UK menu. This has happened before with Salami products which didn't cause much fuss at all. The majority of the UK have been against eating horse, and now it seems many have been unknowingly doing just that. Very sad.
 
Let's face it; if you have eaten in a restaurant and had a pizza with meat topping for example chances are it will have contained horse meat. It doesn't necessarily have to be ready meal cheap rubbish (I won't eat them) and I'm willing to bet that packs of minced beef are also not 100% beef. It's the welfare, live transport and bute issues that concern me and the fact that we have been duped.

I took my passport with me to vet yesterday (she was quite surprised and asked why I had it with me so I pointed out I hadn't had a horse for 10 years so wasn't sure what was meant to be recorded on it). She then said she would sign our mare out of the human food chain (I assume due to the steroids she has been on) but then didn't seem able to find the page in the Weatherbys passport to do so. I checked it when I got home and nothing has been amended in it and I too struggled to find where it should be signed other than by myself? Can anyone clarify this?

Our horse will never go for meat (she is our little sausage and not to be made into someone elses fry-up sausage..) but if the vet was unsure where to sign then I'd imagine that the drugs adminstered and not recorded issue must be huge.
 
I agree, I feel sorry for many who go out eating who've likely had this. I hope this points people back in the direction of local butchers.

I'm unsure about the Wetherby's passports as none of mine have had them, however in most passports it's usually one of the very last 3 pages a small section to sign if they are or are not intended for meat.
 
Billabongchick said:
I took my passport with me to vet yesterday (she was quite surprised and asked why I had it with me so I pointed out I hadn't had a horse for 10 years so wasn't sure what was meant to be recorded on it). She then said she would sign our mare out of the human food chain (I assume due to the steroids she has been on) but then didn't seem able to find the page in the Weatherbys passport to do so. I checked it when I got home and nothing has been amended in it and I too struggled to find where it should be signed other than by myself? Can anyone clarify this?
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I'd be more inclined to take my horse's passport, rather than my own. :p:D

Sounds like yours doesn't have the relevant section in it. Simple to sort, just give Weatherby's a ring and they will tell you where to send it and how much it will cost to have the right bit put in. Cost me about a tenner, but that was a few years ago.
 
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