Omg... when will it end??

Depends which way you look at it I suppose. Yes my dog is to be used at stud - once. I do not consider that makes me a breeder, but perhaps it does in someone else's book.
 
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I really don't understand why we have to breed so many animals in this country. Not having a dig at people on this forum but can not understand the need to breed dogs when we put to sleep 17,000 dogs in the UK every year that are healthy due to not having room for them in animal shelters. In America they routinely kill them by gassing them, I think the figure there is 170,000 per year!

One such video I watched years ago of a kill shelter on YouTube shows a variety of dogs being put in a box; beautiful creatures stuffed into the metal container, all shapes and sizes of dogs from old to puppies, some of them are trying to climb out of the box, not because they are necessarily scared but because they are wondering why they are in the box. And little puppies, so full of innocence. They are just placed in the box on top of the bodies of other dogs that have just died, until the box can hold no more. Then a fork lift comes along and throws them in a lorry to be incinerated. Its heartbreaking.

So I would say that regardless of the breeds of dogs that are being 'engineered' these days, maybe some thought should be given to the dogs desperately waiting for their forever homes and stop breeding more. Because the more that are bred the worse the situation will be.

I would never consider buying a dog from a breeder. My first point of call would always be to the local shelter.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
So I would say that regardless of the breeds of dogs that are being 'engineered' these days, maybe some thought should be given to the dogs desperately waiting for their forever homes and stop breeding more. Because the more that are bred the worse the situation will be.

I would never consider buying a dog from a breeder. My first point of call would always be to the local shelter.
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I do agree with you however I am hoping to buy a GSD from a breeder. (hopefully it will be a successful mating but if not I shall try and find another breeder)

I feel guilty that I am not taking a rescue dog as my first choice but over the years we must have taken around 10 cats from shelters and around the same number of rescue horses, some very seriously damaged and numerous other unwanted small animals and poultry. So I feel we have done our bit. I would like a dog without problems. I feel I could best achieve that from a puppy straight from the breeder. I also want a sweet, cute and fluffy little puppy and there is nothing like a GSD puppy.

If that doesn't work out I shall be back at a rescue no doubt!!
 
hopscotch bandit said:
I would never consider buying a dog from a breeder. My first point of call would always be to the local shelter.
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responsible breeders are not the problem. getting a dog from a rescue (I've had more rescues than puppies over the years) is not all that easy-either through rescues being stringent about the wrong things (imo), or because most dogs in rescue are so badly socialised they aren't then equipped for a broad range of homes down the line. I will not feel guilty for buying quality pups from a good breeder and nor would I rule out another rescue.

The welfare crisis is not my doing nor that of the breeders I have bought from.
 
If someone wanted a top showjumping or dressage prospect, no one on here would advise them to go to their nearest horse rescue, but nobody could deny there is an equine welfare crisis.
Stopping or boycotting responsible/ethical and performance breeding in dogs or horses will not solve the problem.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
I would never consider buying a dog from a breeder. My first point of call would always be to the local shelter.
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For me, it would very much depend what I wanted the dog for, and also if a shelter had a dog that was suited to me - for both my sake, and the dog's. Not all dogs are the same, and horses for courses.

Much like the arguments about breeding horses, the responsible breeders aren't contributing to the crisis. It's the ones who breed to make quick cash without thought to the future that are the problem.
 
What exactly is responsible breeding? Years ago we had waiting lists for good breeders and they were very well known nowadays everyone is breeding anything.
 
Years ago (this is purely from my own experience) people bred for a purpose (show/work/competition/farm dogs/hunting/shooting) and those that didn't make the grade made house pets. If a dog had a problem either physical or mental you dealt with it yourself, gave it to someone you actually knew, or put it to sleep and you definitely didn't breed it. Now the market seems to be predominantly driven by people who want cute and untroublesome pets and when there's trouble it gets moved on. And the breeding for looks and looks alone (which is not just driven by show breeders might I add) has let temperament and physical issues slide and removed some or all of the traits that makes those breeds what they are.

There were always crap breeders though.
 
With my own breed of dogs (bedlingtons) we are extremely lucky as there are very few in rescue, and those that are are normally moved to our breed rescue team who have a waiting list of people wanting to home a bedlington. If I want a good Bedlington, with all the health checks in place who is CT free I will have to wait a long while. If I want a designer dog, I can buy one from a back street greeder tomorrow. The problem lies with the purchasers, whilever people want to buy a designer dog some back street greeder will breed it for them. In the pub last week I met someone who had bought a blue french bulldog for £4000 with the only purpose of breeding blue french bull dogs from her. Blues are not able to be registered so loads of un registered un health checked expensive breeding machines being produced. He had no thought other than the £4000 he had paid for her, and the £4000 he could get per puppy.
 
Nabbed from the husky rescue I volunteer for as it's a nice summary, IMO.

Firstly, breeding as such, is not the problem. The problem (which necessitates the existence of SHWA and all the other husky rescues) is irresponsible commercial breeding. Since we started SHWA in February 2007, less than half of one percent of the dogs we have taken in have originated from breeders we would characterise as "responsible, ethical breeders" (three dogs in all). In all of these cases the breeders have taken back their dogs immediately and arranged for their private rehoming. All the other dogs we have taken in were bred by irresponsible, commercial breeders - whether large scale puppy farmers, backyard breeders or (increasingly) naive/stupid/greedy "pet" breeders.

Secondly, the few good, ethical, responsible breeders we have in the UK (and they are in a tiny minority) are absolutely crucial in maintaining the health, temperament and nature of the breed in this country. These breeders study bloodlines, match pedigrees, assess conformation, assess working ability, test for health and temperament issues and always have the future of the breed in the forefront of their breeding programmes. Compare that with the "commercial breeders" - no health tests, rarely bother with KC registration, no temperament tests, no research on bloodlines of pedigrees, total lack of knowledge or interest in working ability or conformation - basically putting any old dog to any old bitch to produce a profitable "product."

Without the ethical, responsible breeders, our wonderful breed would go downhill very quickly - already we are seeing an increasing incidence of eye problems, hip problems, temperament issues, conformation problems amongst the rescue dogs we take in. If it were not for the few responsible breeders, within a very few generations, our breed would become unrecognisable.
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There's an idiot in the Midlands, I think, who runs a boarding kennels and uses entire males, unbeknownst to the owners, on any bitch he can find. His much used bull cross looks like Jabba the hut, butt ugly. He was producing basset crosses with appalling Queen Anne legs, seriously exaggerated out turned deformed legs. He pops up to troll Pet Forums occasionally. Total idiot.

honetpot said:
I love mongrels, that's all I have ever had. They are cheap to keep, long lived and tend to have no health problems, I just would not pay hundreds for a first x mutt.
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That's a very sweeping statement. My purebred Keeshond was 15 when he died, my purebred springer is nearly 14. How are they cheap to keep? They eat the same as other dogs, can have accidents same as a pure bred. The only way we can try to ensure good health of a litter is by carrying out the recommended breed health tests on the sire and dam before breeding.
 
blackcob said:
Nabbed from the husky rescue I volunteer for as it's a nice summary, IMO.
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Brilliant synopsis.

From a brief scan of the free ad sites just this week, I have found a bitch my friend sold pretty locally as a pet, in a different country with a litter on the ground, and a half brother/half sister mating with the sire being barely a year old. And because of the location I can bet those pups will grow up and be mated to more close relatives :/
I know that because I know the lines and the names and can do my research...an unsuspecting puppy buyer generally won't.
 
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the working English setters you see in Europe are somewhat more substantial than the UK show types. Markings look alright for working type to me in the pups-there's a lot of variation in face markings in the working type (mum is quite dark though). I looked into English setters but there are too many health problems with them in the UK, especially show type. Many UK rescue setters are European in origin and have leish.

There a few good breeders of working types in the UK (that use a few European stud dogs & that are also health testing) that I manage to track down and speak to. Seems a shame to me that setters are not fashionable over here as gun dogs when they are used such a lot in Europe. Maybe people just can't train them here anymore ;)


eta these breeders were advertising pups last summer I'm sure.
 
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Thanks for that, lovely looking dogs. I'm swayed towards the paler ones, like Underwood Clover. Is that more of a show type? I'm interested in the hip scores, will google average, it's something I'd want to be sure about with any future pup.

Edit: 16, according to a link I found. The dog above is 12 on one side, although the link did explain that the median score can be raised by one poorly scoring dog, of course.

I really, really like the look of the setter.
 
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tbh that site nixes my broadband lol! I like the darker ones personally. join a couple of English setter FB groups and get a feel for the problems. hypothyroidism is a problem in the breed, as are hips and skin allergies-having lived with skin allergies in my last setter I'd just say they aren't all easily controllable and can be costly to diagnose and manage. The only English setter I know personally is a walking disaster vet wise and is only 4 yo so breeder research is very important. also bear in mind the grooming issues-especially in neutered setters. I think they are beautiful dogs with a lovely character.
 
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As to mutts being long lived and healthy, I can only speak as I find. From a teenager as family we have always had Heinz57, or xbreed x xbreed. They have all lived well into their teens, only needed the vet for neutering and the final PTS. None of my animals are insured and as I have my vets bills for the last 40 years, apart from the blooming cat being knocked over in 1980, which cost £120, a fortune at the time, that is the biggest bill I have ever had.
Its well known that the wider the gene pool the less likely you are have hereditary diseases passed on, that's in a normal population because if you have a recessive 'bad' gene if your mate comes from a different genetic family they are less likely to carry that recessive 'bad' gene, the two 'bad' genes combine.
I suppose in horses the best expression of this is HWSD in Connemara's. If you are breeding pure breeds you need to know that the potential sire and dam do not carry the gene, although they will be healthy. If they are breeding a x breed there is far less chance with mating with a carrier.
I am not saying the all mutts live for ever, but they are genetically likely to be more diverse, therefore have hybrid vigour. The worrying thing about breeding dogs to be extra small etc, is the breeds that are smaller may come originally from the same genetic ancestors although they look like different breeds now.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
no reason you couldn't have both!
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Hamm, but I've panicked myself looking up leish, hipscores and reading your posts about skin conditions etc! Saying that, Zak's hips are poor and all it means is that we don't ask him to do too much and we swim him lots in decent weather. The breeder you linked is doing hips, eyes. I do think they're amazing looking dogs.
 
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