On the subject of AI packages

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nijinsky

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I had 2 mares AI'd last year, had the vet's package price which was pretty decent.

Vet's ordered semen for insemination when they assumed mares would ovulate. Both mares didn't ovulate when vets assumed they would so had to order more semen which is the cost of collection & courier, is it down to the customer to foot this bill. This happened with both mares so I actually had to pay for 2 lots of semen (collection & courier) twice.

I do appreciate that mares don't run to schedule but it can end up being quite costly & it's outside the package. Should the vets take any responsibility or not?

Your thoughts on this please.
 
my mares only had the semen ordered when there was a decent sized follicle, they were scanned for this so there was no guess work involved. Not sure how everyone else does it though.
 
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my mares only had the semen ordered when there was a decent sized follicle, they were scanned for this so there was no guess work involved. Not sure how everyone else does it though.

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Ditto.
 
Were you present when the mares were scanned so that you could talk through what happened?

Either way - it's certinaly not an exact science, so I'm not sure that you can hold the vet accountable necessarily for incurring extra expense. Some mares are just damn tricky to get in to foal.
 
No I wasn't present as mares were both in with vets.

I do remember them calling me & telling me follicle sizes & when they were ordering semen etc but TBH this was all quite new & technical to me at the time.

Yes - one of the mares was extremely tricky - got there in end then though
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It was just the AI threads reminded me of the little extra costs that you probably don't take into consideration when going into this.
 
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It was just the AI threads reminded me of the little extra costs that you probably don't take into consideration when going into this.

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Indeed
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A surprising number of vets don't seem to use ovulation inducing agents such as chorulon. See if they were using anything, and when they were using it... It's a false economy not to use something to hasten ovulation as part of an AI package.
 
Never had that happen to be honest and order semen from europe, my vet usually uses ovuplant or chorulon and ovulation has alway occured by the time she scans the next day. Also would question with your situation how far out was the mare? Some semen has been known to last upto 4/5 days in the mare, one mare at our yard always gets AI'd a couple of days before ovualtion following on from various trails with her as she is a difficult case.
 
Before Chorulon was common we had a mare that used to be ?Hcg'd, but she began to be resistant to it. She was perfectly capable of growing a decent sized follicle and then sitting on it even though her tone and so on was indicating that ovulation was going to happen within a timescale to fit with our plans.

Thankfully using UK stallions helped here, but no, I never expected that had we ordered semen and she failed to play the game that vet was in the wrong. Just put it down to that mare being tricky.

Sold her to be a ridden horse in the end.
 
Im not quite sure that statement that not many vets use such agents is true.

I think that is presumptive, any place that will get good business will use such agents as otherwise they wouldnt get good results, if they got bad results they wouldnt be in business!

I use such agents on most mares i deal with, unless they are that close that it would be a waste of money (im talking in the process of ovulating).
 
Our vets routinely use Ovuplant these days, it would have been interesting to see how my old mare would have responded to it.

Ovuplant has been very helpful for us and is seen as routine now.
 
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A surprising number of vets don't seem to use ovulation inducing agents such as chorulon. See if they were using anything, and when they were using it... It's a false economy not to use something to hasten ovulation as part of an AI package.

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Ditto. My vet scans for a good follicle, we order semen for the next day and he injects with Chorulon. Next day we AI. IF he's coming out for something else the day after AI, we'll scan again to make sure mare HAS ovulated but I don't get him out especially unless we think it's a mare who will require more than Oxytocin to shift fluid. (He'll leave Oxytocin with me to inject at the right time after AI - along with the same DIRE warnings not to inject myself by accident! Not sure what harm it could do me at my time of life!
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) Whether or not I use Oxytocin, I tease mares with the stallion 12-24 hours after AI to ensure they have gone out AND to help shift fluid. Seems to work.
 
One of my mares had 2 x chorolon then an ovuplant, [all on one cycle]. She got AI'd 5 times but at least she had the decency to go in foal!! She's had 7 foals, never done this before and last year she was normal again!!
 
SFS - my mare's situation was very similar to the mare you describe at your yard, we went down that route too. Vets knew the mare was tricky, I went on their advice, judgement & expertise, all ended well though.

My original question though was is it down to the customer to pay for more semen when things don't go as planned.
 
I would have thought so.
Some mares dont respond to chorulon or even Ovuplant that isnt the vets fault they just go by what they see.
Not all mares have read the book.
We have ended up sending two doses of semen in one cycle on a number of occasions including to Twemlows who you wouldnt expect to get it wrong.
So the point is if they can get it wrong then so can anyone
 
when it's just the mare being tricky deffo not vet's responsibilty to pay.
if you just paid 1 stud fee, but 2 lots of collection and delivery that's common - you're paying costs for 2 lots of 2 jobs - collecting, preparing semen and transport.
 
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Im not quite sure that statement that not many vets use such agents is true.

I think that is presumptive, any place that will get good business will use such agents as otherwise they wouldnt get good results, if they got bad results they wouldnt be in business!


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It's not presumptive, I'm simply relaying what I have seen and had reported to me. A good deal of smaller practices that do not specialise in stud work, have vets that do not use these drugs. Obviously most larger practices, and those experienced in breeding do use them, and have better success.

It's just worth bearing in mind that not all vets will use them as a matter of course, and something that one should check up on.
 
You seem to have got it down to a fine art and I wasted £2500 NOT getting a mare in foal last year..lof of fluid apparently and using frozen on a maiden so would be good to hear your views/advice for this year
 
Using frozen semen on a maiden (how old is she?) is a bit of a no-no anyway, as far as I am concerned. The high number of dead cells, and the higher concentration of sperm causes a larger and more sustained inflammatory response (and fluid accumulation) than you would have with fresh or chilled semen.

Also, because of the reduced longevity of frozen-thawed semen, one cannot inseminate 24-48 hours before ovulation, so the window for clearing the uterus before the cervix closes is greatly reduced... an almost impossible task, in fact.

Did the vets not say anything to you about using frozen semen with a maiden mare? Did they use a lot of oxytocin/reprocine to try to sort out the fluid problem? Did they use lavages?

Realistically, you're unlikely to get this sort of mare in foal with frozen-thawed semen. You should be looking to use fresh or chilled semen inseminated around 48h prior to ovulation, and use the treatment protocol the Jonathan Pycock recommends... http://pycock.co.uk/Italy3.htm
 
OK, stallion owners point of view. Yes I ALWAYS charge mare owner [MO] for any postage. Re collection fee, I don't charge for 1st collection of semen but I charge MO for any further collections unless it is a vet that I KNOW is totally proficient in stud work.As said above, mares have not read the breeding books!, but also there are too many vets doing AI that are useless. I have had vets ring me on a Friday to order semen for the following Wednesday before now! Also had one vet that Ovuplanted on the Monday morning and wanted semen sending for Thursday?? Another one had never heard of Oxytocin........
The worst thing is, it is the MO that is payong for their mistakes. I urge you all to use an experienced vet, [that is NOT 9 mares in a year and yes 50% went in foal] - I had this line too!!
 
We charge per collection (as a stud who stand stallions) - but our collection fee literally does cover the costs, it is not a money making exercise. Of course I would always rather the mare was here from the point of view we KNOW we are doing it right, so giving true figures as to the stallions fertility, but for off site mares we will give advice to the MO's and speak to them re. the mare's cycle so hopefully you have some idea what is going on.

ssjez - I can well believe what you have posted goes on!
 
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