On the subject of PTS/quality of life.....

MontyandZoom

MontyandZoom

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What would you do??

24 year old mare. Lovely girl, super school mistress, lots and lots of miles on the clock. Has ringbone, buted daily for the last two years but kept in work. Jumped round RAF Halton 3 weeks ago.

Last week - she suddenly lost coordination in her back legs :( She was able to walk but was stumbling all over the place. Also was having trouble pooing as no feeling in her back end. The vet came and diagnosed some sort of degenerative disease of the spinal column. Has made a very slight improvement on 25 tablets a day. She is also having a special diet and liquid paraffin to keep everything moving. She lives out but has not been seen anywhere near the herd recently :( She is able to trundle around and graze.

Her owner is away until August travelling so her (horsey) parents have been dealing with her.

The condition will only get worse. Where do you draw the line? How can you REALLY tell whether a horse is happy? I mean, she seems happy enough in herself....but pooing is a fundamental need. She can walk, but finds it hard to place her feet due to loss of feeling.

I'm not passing judgement either way but was just wondering what you would do in this situation.
 
I feel for her parents, I dread being in this situation with daughters horses. However, on the information you have given it doesn't sound like this mare has the greatest quality of life, if her owner was due back in a few weeks I could perhaps justify keeping the mare going, but August is quite a long way away and the mare is not going to get better.:( Are the parents discussing things with her owner, because in their position I would do this and suggest that it would be kinder to pts.
 
for me, horses are prey animals and if anything would permenantly interfers with them being able to get away i would PTS. I know someone who has a mare with nerve problems in her hindend. She consistantly scalds herself and thats when she doesnt have a bladder/kidney infection.Her owner refuses to PTS despite the fact the mare goes down on occasion and cant get back up.
Its not nice, but she's 24 and by the sounds of it has had a fab life.
 
If that was my horse I would PTS as a matter of emergency, if she is not going near the heard and is struggling to poo, I would say she doesnt really have much of a quality of life, that is just my opinion of what I would do if she was mine im sure others would have different views!

Hope it gets sorted, I can understand how hard it must be for the parents while the daughter is off travelling!
 
They have been in contact with her owner. They are also going away for a month next week. I thought they had made a decision but unfortunately there is alot of outside pressure from people at my field. She has been there since she was 4 years old so people are very fond of her. This pressure seems to have changed their mind and they are going to try and keep her going.

It's a very difficult situation :( She seems 'happy' but then, horses put up with alot. They cope as they have no understanding of illness or recovery so just accept it. It is horrible for all involved. She is a super little girl. Not the prettiest but honest as the day is long.
 
Each case is different, and it is a difficult one, but, based on the information you have given, and considering the age of the horse, if it were mine, I would be considering how much longer to let her go on.

However, if the horse isn't in pain and is improving and can still live out, then many people would consider that enough to let her carry on. My concern would be that if she is in a herd, is she keeping her distance because she couldn't defend herself if she was picked on, and therefore depriving herself of company as a self-protection mechanism, thereby making herself miserable and lonely?

Also, if this is a degenerative disease, at her age, is it worth trying to get a few more months/years out of her just for the sake of not putting her down, when there can really only be one outcome, and whilst she does seem to be having a temporary respite, how long can that last?

Let us know what happens.
 
If she was mine then I would pts asap. Horses are intelligent feeling animals, I just could not put my girl through what you describe. I can't believe she has much quality of life. It is degenerative, and she is buted up too - what are they hoping to achieve by keeping her going? Horses don't know that they should have had a tomorrow, I really think the kindest thing would be to let her go. Poor soul. A horrible decision for them to have to make, but just cruel to keep her going to save themselves the decision.
 
MontyandZoom said:
They have been in contact with her owner. They are also going away for a month next week. I thought they had made a decision but unfortunately there is alot of outside pressure from people at my field. She has been there since she was 4 years old so people are very fond of her. This pressure seems to have changed their mind and they are going to try and keep her going.
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Sorry, but if the situation is that both the owner and her parents are going to be away, then they really should have her PTS before they go.

Fondness is no reason for keeping a horse alive - we all love our animals, but there is no kindness in what they are doing. I can't believe that other horsey people are putting pressure on them - are the others at the yard aware of the vet's diagnosis?

Perhaps you could show the parents this thread? We all know what a horrid decision it is to make, but the best thing anyone can do for their horse is to admit to themselves when enough is enough.
 
If she were mine, she would be PTS today. She has done her best all her life and doesn't deserve this end. If the vet is right and it is a degenerative disease, she will only get worse. They are keeping her going for their sake, not for hers. Poor old girl.
 
Unfortunately this is my opinion on her too. It's hard since who are you keeping her alive for? It's not for her benefit :( Unfortunately it is not my call, but it is good to know I am not alone in thinking that it is probably best to pts.

I feel very sorry for everyone involved but it's always got to be the horse's needs first :(
 
Happytohack said:
If she were mine, she would be PTS today. She has done her best all her life and doesn't deserve this end. If the vet is right and it is a degenerative disease, she will only get worse. They are keeping her going for their sake, not for hers. Poor old girl.
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Absolutely. Cannot see any reason why it is not done, claiming they need to tell child is pishpash, they're copping out and probably hope she'll die while they're away to take away their guilt. They are so selfish. Don't tell me they're horsey, they're very callous.
 
It is heartbreaking. However, this is not excusing their behaviour but there are people really guilt tripping them and badgering them to keep her going (one person in particular!!!!). When I say they are horsey, the dad used to be a jockey in his day.

I have spoken to the person in question and said she MUST keep her mouth shut as it is not her decision. I had similar when I had Monty PTS and it is very hard since once it's done, it's done. The worst thing in the world would be to have regrets.......but I can't understand how they could since IMO it is the RIGHT thing to do.
 
Well done for telling the person interfering to shut up. However, the parents should really think of the mare and not worry about what other people think. I have a donkey in his 30s who is inseparable from his pony pal who has cushings. I have already decided that if she goes first (which is likely) he will be pts at the same time, even though he is fairly healthy. I just would not want to put him through the trauma of being without her, he gets so stressed if they are apart for even a short time. I fully expect I will get flack if I do this but I have to think of him. Oh and please don't hijack this thread and tell me I am cruel to consider this.:(
 
I have met owners like this before...

They left us with a dying dog whilst they went on holiday so it'd die in our care, and they wouldn't have to make the decision to have him PTS.

If she goes downhill whilst they're away, then it's up to someone else to make the decision they obviously don't wish to make. It's cruel, it's unfair, and it's the worst possible way of 'thanking' her for her years of service.

Have her PTS now, it's nice and sunny, the flowers are out, the birds are singing.

And tell the others on the yard to shut up. If it was their horses they'd want to do what was best, not what others wanted!
 
Well I'm going to look at it if I was the in that position, as in my horse, but someone else looking after it etc

PTS would be my answer, I wouldnt want my horse suffering, when I say suffering I mean that in a loose sense, because the horse is obvioulsy been cared and treated accordingly but I would want my horse 'kept going' despite me not being there to say goodbye, yes it would be very very tough not being there to see for myself but I'd trust the judgement of the people caring for the horse and the vet, thats what I would do but that doesnt make it right, guess its down to the individual owner and what they think is best.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Oh and please don't hijack this thread and tell me I am cruel to consider this.:(
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I wouldn't think you were cruel at all. If I had lost my Zoom before Monty, I would have him pts even if he were fairly healthy. He was nearly 30 when we lost him and ADORED Zoom. He was also a total stress head. It would have broken his heart to have been separated. When he was stabled in the last week of his life, he couldn't bear to even be in the next stable to her.....so they were in the same one :D Very cute all snuggled up eating hay together.
 
MontyandZoom said:
I wouldn't think you were cruel at all. If I had lost my Zoom before Monty, I would have him pts even if he were fairly healthy. He was nearly 30 when we lost him and ADORED Zoom. He was also a total stress head. It would have broken his heart to have been separated. When he was stabled in the last week of his life, he couldn't bear to even be in the next stable to her.....so they were in the same one :D Very cute all snuggled up eating hay together.
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Thanks for that. I dread having to make the decision, I have had him for 24 years, but I really don't think he would be happy without her.
 
They need to make some sort of decision before they go away because if they are effectively out of sight for a month - then there is a lot that can go wrong - so are they going to leave the YO the right to make that decision when they are away?. I am in two minds about this, and think I would take vet advice and if he felt that that the mare could enjoy a last summer then I would give that to her but not to try to get through the winter but it is something I would look at very carefully to ensure that the horse is still enjoying life and not just pandering to my whim.

This is why I NEVER enjoyed the Horse Whisperer. Granted it did all turn out right in the end, but the owner (yes I know its just a book) just turns her back on that horse when it was so badly injured.
 
If she was mine I would pts, and I think if i was in that situation i would come back for maybe a week and sort it out, that just my opinion thou!!
 
Had this with Tigs. Due to chronic damage to both hind suspensory ligaments she got (very quickly) to the stage where she could not place her hind legs to stale properly. To see her trying to move her off-hind especially.... tears in my eyes at the thought of it. she was only four and a half. I knew there was damage and I had sort of figured out that we didn't have too much longer (if was the begining of winter), but as soon as I saw her struggle, and I knew it was only going to get worse, I called it a day. Hurt like hell and beyond.

The horse would know nothing, other than extra days of kindness and lots of yummy food, then sleep. It's the humans who will know and feel. Unfortunately that's not a valid reason to delay the inevitable when things are bad, getting worse and never going to get better.

Hugs and thoughts to them all.
 
Having had similar with my old horse I'd have pts asap. I certainly couldn't think of leaving until August. It has to be quality over quantity every time.

I know people love their animals but with the age of the horse and having gone away travelling for so long I think I'd have made "arrangements" in case something like this happened before I went.
 
I have to agree with the majority here as this horse does not sound to have any quality of life and, if the herd have already pushed her out then they basically view her as a 'weakness' to their group and, in the wild she would now have fallen prey to predators. That's the way it would have worked but thankfully we have the ability to take that final bit of suffering and lingering death away. A horse that is losing coordination and the ability to go to the toilet is suffering, no questions about it.

It's a horrid decision to make but we are supposed to be responsible and do this for our animals.

Quick comment re the donkey companion situation - I would think a little more about this when the time came to be honest as, if said donkey was still fit and healthy then it would seem a shame to end his life as well. He may surprise you should he maybe see his companion when their time comes and come to terms with it. Ultimately though you know your animals and haveto make the decision as to what you think is best at the time.
 
I was recently reading an article written by associates of a Rescue Centre in South America, which took in abused exotic animals from Drug Barons and the like. One of the managers has stated that any animal which came in was assessed on its ability to perform behaviours vital to its wellbeing or survival. With this in mind, flight animals which had severed limbs or were unable to flee in fear were PTS.

It's something I hadn't considered in detail, before, but the horse in question certainly falls under this criteria. I hope the owners and parents sort this before the parents go away, as I agree, they should not leave this mare. It's infair to the carers left behind and also to the horse long-term.
 
Fransurrey said:
I was recently reading an article written by associates of a Rescue Centre in South America, which took in abused exotic animals from Drug Barons and the like. One of the managers has stated that any animal which came in was assessed on its ability to perform behaviours vital to its wellbeing or survival. With this in mind, flight animals which had severed limbs or were unable to flee in fear were PTS.

It's something I hadn't considered in detail, before, but the horse in question certainly falls under this criteria. I hope the owners and parents sort this before the parents go away, as I agree, they should not leave this mare. It's infair to the carers left behind and also to the horse long-term.
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That's a really interesting way of looking at it and I agree with you completely.
 
Thanks for all your comments. I feel exactly the same as the majority on here. The old girl owes her owners nothing, she has been foot perfect for the 12 years they have had her.

I really hope that they make the right decision for her :( I will keep you all updated.
 
As prey animals horses can be incredibly stoical, as in the wild a horse which displayed obvious signs of being ill or in pain to predators would be picked off pretty quickly. So it can be hard to know how bad things really are.

In this situation, I would pts and I would expect my parents to make the same decision if I were away and they were in charge. Really sad, but it is something all animal owners owe to their animals:(
 
If they had any hope about this mare being rehabilitated, I could understand why they might consider giving it a try, but when it, by the sound of things, will just be going down hill from here on and it is only a matter about, in which speed it is going to go down hill, I don't feel that there is much to consider left. It is all about stop thinking about yourself and from your own human point of view and doing what is best for them.


I've seen TV programmes and read about people who has decided that they wanted to be euthanised, (they were either Dutch citizens or foreigners in Switzerland), if their deadly condition came to a certain level. When they reached that level, most of them decided that they had reached the end of their life and that they didn't want to have to suffer any more, but some decided that they could handle this, that it wasn't as bad as they had feared and/or that they still wanted to live. And they set another level, as if saying "Okay, I can live with this, but when it gets to that other level, then it is enough." Sometimes they changed their level again, sometimes they stopped when they reached the new level.

But most humans can decide for itself and evaluate if they really think life is worth living, in the given situation, in a way that I don't believe animals do. I don't believe animals evaluate if their life is worth living, I feel that it is more about that animals tries to carry on living, until something finally overpowers their instinct to try and stay alive.


In one of those TV programmes there was a man with ALS (Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis) who said something like :
"People who objects about me wanting to end my life, saying that I should not play God, don't seem to think about that it is medical technology that is keeping me alive, according to God, I should already be dead.
Why don't they object against people being resuscitated after heart attacks or against trying to keep infants alive at neonatal units in hospitals? From their point of view, is it not also to play God, to try and keep those persons, infants alive? Why is it only okay to play God, when you want to save lives and never when you want to end your own suffering?"


Just because we can keep an animal alive by medications, it does not mean that we always look to the animal's best interests by doing so.
 
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