On the subject of PTS/quality of life.....

I feel the best thing for this mare is to have her put to sleep. I have seen horses and ponies kept going longer than they should of been and its not fair on the animal.

As for the owner being away travelling i dont think that makes a lot of difference im sure she would just want whats best for the mare, yes she will be upset that she didnt get to say good bye but its the risk we all take even going away for a weekend it only takes a kick in the wrong place and they could have to be PTS.

My first pony i had on loan got a kick in the field and his owner was away travelling the pony had to be put to sleep right away and knowone could get hold of his owner for a few days to let her know, she was up set but happy that he didnt have to suffer waiting around for us to check with her that we were making the right decision.

Its a hard decision to make but i think someone needs to.
 
MontyandZoom said:
I wouldn't think you were cruel at all. If I had lost my Zoom before Monty, I would have him pts even if he were fairly healthy. He was nearly 30 when we lost him and ADORED Zoom. He was also a total stress head. It would have broken his heart to have been separated. When he was stabled in the last week of his life, he couldn't bear to even be in the next stable to her.....so they were in the same one :D Very cute all snuggled up eating hay together.
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We had 2 mares who had been together and virtually inseparable for 20 yrs. We had thought that if the older one went first we would have to have the younger one pts on the same day as she would have been 'heartbroken'. As it was the younger one had a stroke in her stable, with her friend in the next box. The hunt came and pts and took her away, with the older one watching it all (we couldn't get the older one out until the younger had been moved). The older one lived very happily with their other companions for 2 more years.

As to your original question; I think she should be pts before the parents go away. Her quality of life is poor and deteriorating. I am afraid that they are indeed hoping that some-one else will make the decision while they are away. If the daughter is old enough to go travelling, then she is old enough to understand that decisions have to be made for the good of the horse, regardless of the feelings of the humans concerned. If I go away, my sister looks after our horses and I trust her to make any decisions necessary, whilst keeping me informed if possible. I would be horrified if she kept a suffering horse, or indeed any other animal, waiting until I could get back home. If the position were reversed I would expect to make any decisions necessary. I agree with MFH9, no 'horsey' people that I know would leave the mare in this state.
 
I agree with the posts on here that pts would be the kindest option. Personally I could not live with myself at the thought of going off on holiday and enjoying myself for a month! A month, a week is bad enough. While there is a horse that was in my care that seems in a bad way. Ostracization by the herd is not good, especially as horses are 'herd' animals. Not being able to defecate properly could be causing her pain, colic type cramps. In co-ordination of the legs isn't nice either. Yeah maybe horses don't have the psychological effects we have when we suffer with debilitating disorders. But who is to say that they don't feel or perceive at least 'something'?
Life should be about quality, especially in the case of an animal. A couple of years ago I had to make a sad decision about a pet. It was ferret I had owned since he was a kit, from about 6 weeks of age. He had been suffering with insulinoma for just over a year without any real major effects but this one year he had been gradually getting worse over a period of a couple of weeks. He was brought inside the house for some more warmth and company and enjoyed skittling about the house. I was going on holiday ( all arranged ) and a relative would have been looking after him along with my other pets. Some days were better than others. The occasional trance or staring into space. But on the days he suffered worse he was vomiting after a meal. He was nearly 8 and a good age for a ferret and I didn't want to prolong his life with drugs. Animals can't tell you if they are feeling pain in most cases, even by body language and ferrets are famous for hiding illnesses. I couldn't bear the thought of tablet pushing or using other drugs that may have helped but also had side effects that could be unpleasant. Instead of waiting until I returned from a week's holiday I took him to the vets a few days beforehand to be pts. I thought it was the kindest thing to do. His condition was deteriorating and even though he had not vomited that day and enjoyed a cuddle and skittle around the living room that same day, I knew I had done the right thing for a lot of reasons. Who was I keeping him alive for otherwise? For me to look at and cuddle. Who would have been responsible for him while I was away? What if his condition had got worse and he wasn't eating or drinking at all. How would that have been not only for him but for the person responsible for looking after him. My ferret wasn't at death's door but he was poorly and wouldn't have got better. Even drugs would have just delayed the inevitable.
Personally I think the people in this instance are being selfish. Not only towards the horse but also to the people who will be left to look after this horse in their absence.
A week maybe I could understand. But a month, anything could happen in a month. If it was me in that position. I would either pts before I go, don't go on holiday and delay it, or else put it in writing for someone to act on their behalf and give consent to pts if the vet deems it is in the horse's best interest if the horse goes downhill or seems in further pain/suffering.
 
FinnishLapphund said:
I don't believe animals evaluate if their life is worth living, I feel that it is more about that animals tries to carry on living, until something finally overpowers their instinct to try and stay alive.
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This is something that came up in my vet school interview regarding killer whales etc in captivity. There is a huge difference between being 'happy' and 'coping'. Animals put up with alot as they simply accept the way things are but does that mean that they have quality of life?

A great word that is used frequently in veterinary ethics books is 'telos'. This is basically the horseness of a horse of pigness of a pig. If animals are no longer able to express natural behaviours how could they possibly be 'happy'.

For me, the main issue is the pooing. When I made the decision about Monty, it was because he was having trouble passing urine. Defacation is a fundemental part of being a living creature so that was when I really knew that his quality of life was compromised.....and I didn't even hesitate to make that descision and have NO regrets.

I really don't know how things are going to pan out. I have been giving the old girl lots of polos when I'm down at the field. I just really hope that a decision is made in the next couple of days so the old girl can have the luxury of a clean ending.
 
I agree PTS is the kindest thing to do. I would be worried that she will go down at night when no -one is around to help her and the crows will attack her. Thats what happened to a 35 y.o pony left to get on with it on his own. He went down one freezing night and the crows pecked out his eyes. I just hope he was gone by then. That is the biggest worry when they just die alone in the field, will they be attacked by predators.
 
I suppose there's no chance of getting either the BHS Welfare or WHW there to take a look, the parents might listen to someone like that? I feel so sorry for the poor mite, it's nothing but cruelty.
 
MFH9 said:
I suppose there's no chance of getting either the BHS Welfare or WHW there to take a look, the parents might listen to someone like that? I feel so sorry for the poor mite, it's nothing but cruelty.
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Unfortunately I really don't think this is an option. The vet is in constant contact with the parents and she is being cared for, fed, watered and checked several times a day. I think this is the problem.........where do you draw the line? Whilst she is still able to move around/graze etc it doesn't count as an immediate PTS on humane grounds.
 
I understand. It does make you wonder where the ethics of the vet have gone although I know they are now not allowed to say anything, in all decency, they should call time out. It would make me question having them as my vet, I like mine to tell it like it is, no fannying about. Then again, if I needed my vet to tell me what I can't feel and see with my own eyes, I'd give up horses altogether; I wouldn't be a fit owner.
 
Based on our recent experience with our local vets I'd suggest that someone (YO?) has a quiet word with your vets. Our local vets will only accept instructions and call-outs from the horse's owner - even if written permission has been given to the yard owner in a contract. They refused to come out to horse with a suspected fracture. It would be terrible if your vets have the same policy and they also refuse to pts if it becomes a necessity while the owners are away. :(
 
The vet in question has been very good. I actually did my work experience with him. I think part of the problem is the sue-culture.

When he originally came out he said that they should give her three days on the meds to see how she does and then PTS. When asked what her chances were he said 'not very good at all, she is very, very unlikely to improve'. The other problem is the diagnosis has been made on symptoms so you can't 'prove' that the mare has this condition and will definately get worse, even if eveything in his 30 years experience as a vet is telling him that she WILL get worse. Conversely, you cannot prove that she is in actual and immediate pain. I am about to embark on my vet training and it is a real problem that modern vets face.

He therefore cannot tell them to PTS, only make recommendations, which he has :( I just wish the intereferring busy bodies would go away (although I know that I will give them my opinion if they ask for it!). She would have been PTS already if people hadn't guilt tripped them!
 
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