One in four livery yards a welfare concern?

Crikey full livery is not £200 a week! Assuming exercise is not included, I paid £85 a week for part livery (7 days a week, everything except exercise/grooming/tack cleaning) - that included a bale of shavings a week, all hard food and haylage, individual paddock rotated every six months, tow outdoor schools and one indoor (lights included), lunge pen, washbox with hot water (included), horse walker, lorry parking etc.

Even if I were to send my horse to my dressage trainer, where he would be exercised/schooled daily that would only be £155 a week.

I've now moved him to a DIY yard which is about £31 a week - and realistically I don't see how anyone could offer livery for less than that and make money given rates/insurance etc. And TBH if you can't afford that to keep a horse, then should you be trying to partake in a hobby beyond your means? I know I could not afford to be a hobby pilot, but I don't think I have some kind of 'right' to do so and that airfields should operate without any insurance etc and at knock down rates just so I can! I'm not sure why horse owning is different from anything else - I can't afford to fly business class/drive a porsche/own a 7 bedroom house, so I don't - that's my problem and if the cost of something prices me out of doing it then fair enough - why is horse ownership somehow exempt in people's minds from this? No-one has a 'right' to own a horse - it is a luxury and a privilege.
 
I think you have done well to find yards at those prices tbh I never did.

But whilst I agree to some extent with what you are saying I would say that we have had 'cheap' yards for years so what happens to all those horses who live in them whose owners can't afford £85 per week. Should we put them down ?

I would also argue that I bet a lot of those horses are better kept than the penny pinching ways of full livery yards

Secondly you have a whole industry born on the back of large scale horse ownership, what happens to the people who depend on that for their livelihood.
 
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Crikey full livery is not £200 a week! [ QUOTE ]
I was generalising based on the charge of £120 a week for full livery at an old yard I was at (on DIY) which was certainly not all singing and dancing and definately didn't pay any kind of insurance!

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And TBH if you can't afford that to keep a horse, then should you be trying to partake in a hobby beyond your means? I know I could not afford to be a hobby pilot, but I don't think I have some kind of 'right' to do so and that airfields should operate without any insurance etc and at knock down rates just so I can! I'm not sure why horse owning is different from anything else - I can't afford to fly business class/drive a porsche/own a 7 bedroom house, so I don't - that's my problem and if the cost of something prices me out of doing it then fair enough - why is horse ownership somehow exempt in people's minds from this? No-one has a 'right' to own a horse - it is a luxury and a privilege.

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I do think that is a little unfair tbh, as seemingly it was aimed at me....I dont think I have any 'right' to own horses, they are a luxury for me, but for what its worth, I can afford to keep mine at livery if I so choose, but I dont because I did not enjoy the livery atmosphere, and so sought out somewhere I could keep them privately. BUT there are a lot of people out there who do keep their horses at £20 a week DIY livery yards, and if they were forced to suddenly increase their expenditure by £40 a month, that may be taking luxury to not-affordable.
 
You don't have to afford £85 a week. £30 a week for properly set up DIY seems a reasonable expense to bear for an animal which is going to cost you every X weeks for shoes, every year for jabs etc.

I just think there is this odd thing about the horse world where people who cannot afford what is a relatively expensive hobby seem to think that they nevertheless have some right to do so, and therefore that it is perfectly ok for someone else not to pay tax or have insurance or pay minimum wage - it's not, it's fraud, just like any other kind of fraud. The even more wierd thing is that these same people would be outraged if they found out someone they knew was (for example) cheating the benefits system.

Those prices are standard for where I live - and no, I do not live in the north! I could move to two different part livery yards - one is £70 a week, has two arenas, no walker or any of the other smart things mentioned above but cleans your tack for you daily for that price and has a washing machine for liveries to use included, the other is £80 a week, again only one arena and no walker, other stuff all included. DIY seems to be £30 a week wherever you go round here, some are £35.

I think it is a gross and unfair generalisation to say that those horses are better looked after than 'penny pinching people on part livery' - just because I have the money to pay someone else to do the chores I don't want to do does not mean my horse is not looked after as well as he is now on DIY! I could have him on part livery now but choose not to because the TO arrangements suit me better at this particular yard. But believe me if I could find a decent freelance groom to pay to muck out and let me have a lie in at the weekends etc then I would!!
 
Alsxx, I was using the generic 'you' not aiming it at you personally - how would I have any idea whether or not you can afford any kind of livery or not? I will endeavour to remember to use 'one' in future
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Hehe thats ok, I was like woah hang on there......I keep mine like royalty that go without nothing, and if I really couldn't afford them...well best not say it!
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If we're talking about the small farmer etc who rents out a couple of boxes or someone who rents out a field and shelter, as a help to someone in exchange for your example of £30 a week, its not enough revenue to offset the costs of insurance, rates, field maintenance etc so they would leave them empty.

In your scenario I think you'll end up with big yards who can reduce their outgoings based on economies of scale and in turn charge large livery fees. All those smaller individual yards / fields will be gone because no-one is gonna offer something as a favor if its gonna cost them more than the revenue they are generating.

I am not casting aspersions on the way you keep your horses, god knows mine have been on full livery for about ten years until I bough my own place and all i'm saying is that ime its the big commercial yards that can penny pinch because your horse is a money making commodity and not seen as something to care for and nurture. I was having to buy in extra hay for mine despite a livery bill in excess of £1200 per month and on a DIY yard I had someone who always made sure they had enough cos she liked to see them happy. Just my experience though.
 
Problem is anyone can start a livery yard, all you need is stables and grazing, you get a range of people who neglect there horses regardless if its diy or full livery, DIY for me is better i prefer doing my own horse(could be done with full right now) yard I'm at isn't BHS standards came down sat to find jcb in park wasn't happy! my last yard was falling to bits. but i looked at a assisted/full livery which was worse. you get neglect every where and my boy has tug of water night where as 1 has 6 buckets so people may think hes not on enough water
 
i think that what many people forget is that the majority of YO are actually trying to make a living! so often, livery clients will add up the monthly cost of keeping their horse as in feed, bedding etc, forgetting the hidden costs such as water, electric, rates, insurance, maintenance and in some cases staff wages, and moan that costs are too high. the YO has to make some sort of profit on top of this, or there is no point in running the yard! we simply cannot afford to subsidise clients, and it would nt be expected in most other businesses
 
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If we're talking about the small farmer etc who rents out a couple of boxes or someone who rents out a field and shelter, as a help to someone in exchange for your example of £30 a week, its not enough revenue to offset the costs of insurance, rates, field maintenance etc so they would leave them empty.

In your scenario I think you'll end up with big yards who can reduce their outgoings based on economies of scale and in turn charge large livery fees. All those smaller individual yards / fields will be gone because no-one is gonna offer something as a favor if its gonna cost them more than the revenue they are generating.

I am not casting aspersions on the way you keep your horses, god knows mine have been on full livery for about ten years until I bough my own place and all i'm saying is that ime its the big commercial yards that can penny pinch because your horse is a money making commodity and not seen as something to care for and nurture. I was having to buy in extra hay for mine despite a livery bill in excess of £1200 per month and on a DIY yard I had someone who always made sure they had enough cos she liked to see them happy. Just my experience though.

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Mine's on DIY currently, so clearly looked after like a king
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The thing is, this isn't 'my scenario' - it's the law in this country - you cannot run a business such as providing livery or renting out a field or whatever without being liable for business rates - yes, it means the smaller places probably shouldn't have horses on them - but just because someone thinks that's unfair, it does not change the fact that they are running a business illegally, defrauding the inland revenue and leaving themselves wide open to being sued in the event of an accident and losing a lot of money if they do not have suitable insurance. I don't make the rules, that's just the way it is.

As the 'rentee' then I think one is on safer ground - as long as you have your insurance then it really isn't down to you to make sure the renter is paying the required rates or has insurance, it's their problem if they get caught out.
 
I haven't I must admit read all the responses in great detail but I have kept my horses at everything from a basic farm DIY to DIY at a quality livery yard to having a horse at competition livery. I do from time to time say the DIY yards round my way are grim but that is really because I have become very spoilt with good facilities over the years and like having a well maintained school, hot water, etc. So far as DIY goes, I think as someone has said the standard of care comes down to what the owner knows or does and most of the people I know with horses on DIY look after their horses fantastically and lavish every care upon them.
 
QR: I remember doing that survey, and it being blatantly obvious what the desired results were from the slant put on the questions. The published "findings" are therefore no surprise what so ever. There was an agenda behind the survey, it was not a fact finding exercise at all.
 
Your comments are absolutely right. As a YO all I want is a level playing field. My yard is 100% legit & I get so cross seeing many others charging £5 a week less for absolutely no comparison of outgoings. No one likes paying Income Tax, Business Rates, Insurance etc so why should a select few just pocket the cash tax free & carry on regardless. If this means licensing livery yards then so be it as it is the only way forward & if we are all legitimate businesses then conditions will improve all round, ultimately the horses welfare will improve.
 
Well here's a good example to all those that doubt the necessity to have insurance.
Just read it on H&HO front page regarding the chap who was kicked at Appleby.
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The county court judge ruled that despite not being involved in the fair, the council had failed to ensure the organisers had public liability insurance.

On that basis I think it is clear that insurance is absolutely necessary
 
One in four horse owners are complete numptys.So I have to wonder about the complaints against livery yards. I remember delivering a load of hay to a well known yard and being informed that it was full of ragwort. I was round there like a shot . Show me the ragwort. Thats not ragwort. But its yellow. Yup, so are buttercups!!. To paraphrase : Nation of imbeciles!!
 
Buttercups (unlike Ragwort) aren't poisonous when dry, so no worry if you find them in hay or haylage. All they will do is dilute the nutritional value of the hay.
 
I have been on five yards over a span of several years.
The first yard had great facilities & hacking but limited t/o.
I moved to a small yard run & advertised by a " professional" ( her words, not mine). This yard could have been perfect, large boxes, good t/o, indoor school. However the owner turned out to be THE most unpleasant person I have ever come across - horrendous mood swings, double standards, tantrums on the yard, bullying... this list could go on. Worst of all however was the fact that she turned a blind eye to one DIY livery who only turned up at the yard twice a week to do her horse. The poor animal was left in a flithy box with no food or water. Other liveries gave it water etc. The yard owner was fully aware & allowed this to continue as the horse owner paid on time!
I moved my horse promptly!
This is only one case of neglect in one yard. I wish a survey could be done to try & find out just how many horses are neglected, ill treated etc. This could give hard facts & figures as to whether licencing etc is needed &/or would work
 
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