One of only 30 in the world

a driving man once told me that after one of the wars, 2nd world war I think, that there were only a few pure bred stallions left, and this lead to unavoidable inbreeding, I think it would not be a bad idea to introduce a limited infusion of, say thoroughbred blood of a physically similar type of horse, after all most of the stud books have done this in the past, and most of the present day warmbloods owe much of their success to this component, well if its needed that is. breeds like the traks are infused with tb and arab blood and they have sired some of the very top competition horses today.
there are quite a few purebred Iberian horses at the top of dressage, to commercialise or create a demand for a breed you have to create something that people will want to buy and showcase it to the world at large
 
I don't normally enter the Breeding discussion room, but I wanted to stick up for the Cleveland Bay. I have my first pure bred and she's only 4 so we can't do much yet. I had two part breds before and promised myself I would buy a pure bred as my next horse.

My CB is an absolute joy and exactly what I expected. She is opinionated, but not stubborn or awkward and she has been a pleasure to break in. She can already move well and I suspect she will love jumping much more than me. I really can't understand why everyone doesn't want one!

I think the Irish Draught took the place of the CB and became 'fashionable' for many years. The CB seemed to get moved from its natural home and declined. Clevelands seem to me to be ideal for anyone who wants a horse that can turn its hoof to anything but is straightforward, honest and sensible.
 
tristar said:
a driving man once told me that after one of the wars, 2nd world war I think, that there were only a few pure bred stallions left, and this lead to unavoidable inbreeding, I think it would not be a bad idea to introduce a limited infusion of, say thoroughbred blood of a physically similar type of horse, after all most of the stud books have done this in the past, and most of the present day warmbloods owe much of their success to this component, well if its needed that is. breeds like the traks are infused with tb and arab blood and they have sired some of the very top competition horses today.
there are quite a few purebred Iberian horses at the top of dressage, to commercialise or create a demand for a breed you have to create something that people will want to buy and showcase it to the world at large
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Perfectly acceptable to introduce TB blood, two Olympic Showjumpers, one winner at Burleigh were CBXTB. We call it a part-bred. I breed part breds and pure breds but my part breds are Shagya crosses.

The Yorkshire Coach Horse was a CBXTB but pure bred CB stallions were always allowed into the YCH stud book...too much TB was detrimental to the breed. The YCH stud book closed in 1936. The CB stud book survived.

You mention the Trakehner at last years EU Shagya Championships the TrK Society gave thanks to the ShG breed society for the contribution made to the survival of their breed. I would suggest the Shagya was more important than the TB.
 
Magnetic Sparrow said:
I don't normally enter the Breeding discussion room, but I wanted to stick up for the Cleveland Bay. I have my first pure bred and she's only 4 so we can't do much yet. I had two part breds before and promised myself I would buy a pure bred as my next horse.

My CB is an absolute joy and exactly what I expected. She is opinionated, but not stubborn or awkward and she has been a pleasure to break in. She can already move well and I suspect she will love jumping much more than me. I really can't understand why everyone doesn't want one!

I think the Irish Draught took the place of the CB and became 'fashionable' for many years. The CB seemed to get moved from its natural home and declined. Clevelands seem to me to be ideal for anyone who wants a horse that can turn its hoof to anything but is straightforward, honest and sensible.
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Agreed!!! Honest and sensible. Ground covering paces and up to weight.

I have two five year olds, last year we just brought them on gently.

This year one is hacking out alone and coping with all the scarey things we have in the country. COWS!!! Tractors, cyclists.

The other is more nervous so we take things gently she already shows promise as a dressage horse.

Our French stable jockey spent two years working in a Racing yard. There is only ONE stallion he wants for his TB mares - it is our CB, Arthur. He would steal him if he could.
 
I think there are two problems, having read the whole thread. The first is that they are great all rounders. But if someone wants an all rounder, they will not only find one out of an Irish bog for a fraction of the price of a purebredd of any breed, but they are also far more numerous.

The other problem is that they are, by definition, bay with no white markings, and that does reduce their attraction to many people. I would not choose one over an otherwise equal horse with a nice star and four whites, purely on the looks.

They are lovely horses that you have bred OP, anyone can see the quality shines out.
 
They are both beautiful Rollin.

I have a CBxTB and he is wonderful - definitely my horse of a lifetime. If he didn't have juvenile arthritis and had to be retired to light hacking at 7 he would have been an amazing competition horse. He was fantastic in the school - so trainable. I didn't ride him at all for 2 yrs then hopped on his back to nanny our new horse out hacking. I reminded him of the aids (2 mins) then we set off as if he had been ridden the day before.

I would definitely have another one, but they are so rarely for sale.
 
cb x tb is obviously to any breeder a cross.

I`m suggesting using a tb like kings composer, to cross with cb then back again to cb until you arrive at a stallion with 12 1/2 0/0 tb .

the object is too arrive at a new stallion or stallions for the stud to breed purebred cb`s with new genetic diversity.

with the traks each tb or arab stallion used has bought its own type and qualities to the breed and influenced different herds in different ways.
 
tristar said:
cb x tb is obviously to any breeder a cross.

I`m suggesting using a tb like kings composer, to cross with cb then back again to cb until you arrive at a stallion with 12 1/2 0/0 tb .

the object is too arrive at a new stallion or stallions for the stud to breed purebred cb`s with new genetic diversity.

with the traks each tb or arab stallion used has bought its own type and qualities to the breed and influenced different herds in different ways.
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We already have a grading register and so I could in theory breed my two ShGxCB fillies back to a CB stallion and then again to a CB so that eventually we have a horse which can be registered in the CB stud book. However, the GR is not used very much and the proposal to change the amount of other blood has torn the society apart.

In addition the RBST have warned that a change to the stud book will result in a loss of HBLB funding.

As I have already said a TB cross is not for me. The Shagya has bone, stamina, looks and a great temperament. When our own stallion was with Seb. Poirier I had glowing reports on how easy and well behaved he was on the yard.

For my own part our mare is in foal again to our own stallion, if we produce a colt with the quality of the filly shown at 15 months I intend to have him competing not just in CB showing classes. That will be the real test of quality.
 
Rollin, if it was decided to introduce TB blood (and I'm not saying that they should) I would have thought that you would have to be very strict over which TB's were allowed. The example given by tristar for example (Kings Composer) is Brown rather than Bay and has white on his OH, I guess that would be an issue? I've not seen many CB's but they have all been true bays with no white. Being bay seems to be a fundamental thing.

I do wonder if it was fashion that was against them in the past? They are very useful horses and I believe that the breed does have a future if more people begin to recognise their worth. I really hope that it's not too late.
 
There was no money in breeding Clevelands.. Breeding for the police they wanted IDs and so the CBs were sold and the IDs were bought. It was supply and demand. This was when a guy used to come round buying for the police from our stud. Knaresborough warlock was the stallion at ours.
 
Someone said it above; most other breeds moved on, the CB never did. I suspect, in order for them to move on, and in turn become more popular, they would have to open their stud books to other breeds (as the vast majority of the WB registries have) whereby TB or Arab stallions can be graded and licensed for breeding within the purebred category and thus, resulting foals from those matings are given purebred papers. I can see a number of problems with that however to retain certain traits within a breed which has colour restrictions.
 
I have one, had her since she was a four yo now nine. She is bloody fab! Not your stereotypical 17 hander either, she's 15.2hh, built like brick ****house and super safe. is she stubborn? Not really, she likes to know what your asking and not be confused, she was originally my OHs horse but they didnt get on, he's better off with a gelding lol.
she's the one horse I trust 100% with my life, lots of character, not scared of a thing, the only bad thing is she is an extremely good doer :)

 
Thank you to all of you for your more recent posts - lots I need to reply to BUT we have a 60km endurance tomorrow so please forgive me if I don't respond till Monday.

Wish us luck with our Shagya.
 
tristar said:
best of luck with the shagya, take lots of photos please
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In brief, I don't want to steal the CB thread and will answer tomorrow.

The boy done good, speed 13.77kph (for 6 year olds it must be 12-15kph). Final heart rate 38 - a REALLY good result. As at Lion D'Angers he got a special mention from the organisers.

We were delighted with him. For prize giving he had to share a small enclosure arena with 20+ mares and geldings and was perfectly behaved. I will post some photos on a separate thread.
 
Answers at last. it is Bastille Day and we are off racing soon. Just have time to answer a few points.

CP Trayes, yes there are plenty of inexpensive horses in Ireland. Remember that Ireland like Continental Europe treat horses as agricultural products. The breeders have an economic advantage not enjoyed by the UK.

I don't think CB's are expensive, plenty for sale at around £2k-£2.5K and some for as little as £1K. I think they are a bargain. My four year old Shagya filly full sister to our stallion will command 2-3X the price of my lovely CB filly.

Kaylum. Agreed there has been no money in breeding CB's. We support our stud through our pensions. There is no money however, because the quality of the breed has never been properly recognised or promoted. The society has recently been approached again to provide horses for the mounted police. I ideally 7 years old.

Faracat. Spot on. I don't know the true history but Cleveland Bays must be bay with no white markings or roaning other than a white star, which is permitted. Once upon a time the stud book refused to register CB's with white feet. Now they are included but registered as mis-marked, other passports are issued 'meets breed standard'.

I became interested in the breed, because my first horse, bought for carriage driving is I think and un-registered part bred. This got me hooked on the breed, he is such a star, literally been on TV and in many films.

My personal view. A Light Harness Horse Instructor, told me that the perfect matched pair was "The same horse twice". We forget the origins. Before we had motor cars, if you were rich your Rolls Royce was a perfectly matched team of four in hand. The CB breeds true to type and traditional breeders have kept it that way.

The Edinburgh Mail, London-Edinburgh ran 400 miles in 40 hours, remember they had to stop to change teams. So these horses averaged over 10miles per hour pulling a road coach in all weathers, over 30 miles. That is the faster than my endurance stallion last weekend. He did not have to pull a coach.
 
Rollin I am sure you have your reasons but I am a little confused when you are pointing out that the number of births are so low yet are crossing out some of your pure CB mares?

I guess the all rounder category is already pretty full and doesn't need a specific breed maintaining for it, I have a great allrounder welshie - plenty of those crossed with TBs, also know a lot of TB allrounders before you even get started on the irish mixes.
 
Spring Feather said:
Someone said it above; most other breeds moved on, the CB never did. I suspect, in order for them to move on, and in turn become more popular, they would have to open their stud books to other breeds (as the vast majority of the WB registries have) whereby TB or Arab stallions can be graded and licensed for breeding within the purebred category and thus, resulting foals from those matings are given purebred papers. I can see a number of problems with that however to retain certain traits within a breed which has colour restrictions.
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Yes and No.

I have lots of issues with our breed society. As one previous Breed Chair said, "we parade fat stallions round on a piece of string".

I don't agree with opening the stud book, Our Shagya's stud book is older than CBHS and only pure bred Arabian stallions who have undergone rigorous testing are admitted and then only once in five generations. Warmbloods? Never. I like my Shagya's just the way they are.

I have actually spoken to a number of warmblood stud books in Europe. They will not accept the progeny of any CB stallion because the CBHS is not a member of WBSHF!! Yet as you know the Oldenburgh stud book owes much to the CB stallions who were exported to Germany.

The membership cost is £1,000 per annum.

Again as with our Shagya, I like my horses just the way they are. I would not want to risk breeding in 'too hot', 'flat feet' 'OCD', which might come with some breeds.

Our horses are very fit and sound, plenty of people on this forum are 'overhorsed' or spend all their money on vet fees for their lame horses.

There is plenty to praise in a closed stud book.
 
I had a CB by Mulgrave or Mulgrave Supreme [it was the elder ], [we are going back now] he had good temperament and safe as well as being a good hunter type, we had a CB "meet" and I think about 10 turned out, that was 1973 , so at that time there were quite a few about.
I thought about offering him to the police, but he was not outstandingly big, even though he was a full on 16.2.
Re an out-cross, there are big TB s, the ones used in NH racing, they would be fine.
 
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ester said:
Rollin I am sure you have your reasons but I am a little confused when you are pointing out that the number of births are so low yet are crossing out some of your pure CB mares?

I guess the all rounder category is already pretty full and doesn't need a specific breed maintaining for it, I have a great allrounder welshie - plenty of those crossed with TBs, also know a lot of TB allrounders before you even get started on the irish mixes.
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I breed pure breds too. Another due next year and I have frozen semen for the daughters of my own stallion.

Please remember, I had no support whatsoever from either my breed society or DEFRA when we purchased this stud in France. The CB was not recognised as a pedigree horse but a cheval de trait - cart horse!!!

I had a three year old filly who we could not compete, breed from or take off our farm. Eventually, I wrote to the French Prime Minister and within 6 weeks all was resolved.

Two Trustees of CBHS each exported two pure bred mares to France. One colt foal has never been registered in the stud book and two pure bred mares are 'lost'.
 
MrsD123 said:
I had a CB by Mulgrave or Mulgrave Supreme [it was the elder ], [we are going back now] he had good temperament and safe as well as being a good hunter type, we had a CB "meet" and I think about 10 turned out, that was 1973 , so at that time there were quite a few about.
I thought about offering him to the police, but he was not outstandingly big, even though he was a full on 16.2.
Re an out-cross, there are big TB s, the ones used in NH racing, they would be fine.
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Mulgrave was 1952 and Suprme 1961.

I agree about NH TB mares. Our French stable jockey has several TB's one racing, another jumping. He wants to breed an eventer from our stallion (quite chuffed that never having seen a CB, he thinks there is only ONE stallion to breed his eventers).

We are looking for a NH type mare at the moment.
 
Pipkin said:
I have one, had her since she was a four yo now nine. She is bloody fab! Not your stereotypical 17 hander either, she's 15.2hh, built like brick ****house and super safe. is she stubborn? Not really, she likes to know what your asking and not be confused, she was originally my OHs horse but they didnt get on, he's better off with a gelding lol.
she's the one horse I trust 100% with my life, lots of character, not scared of a thing, the only bad thing is she is an extremely good doer :)

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Getting out of sequence.

So nice for another owner to praise the safe and sensible Cleveland Bay....that is why they pull carriages down the Mall with 1,000's of people shouting and waving flags!!

Agreed they are not all 17hh giants. My first two were 15.2hh and 15.3hh. My husband took up riding in his 50's our 15.2hh pure bred mare never gave him a moment of anxiety AND was a Champion Small Show Hunter. Thank your for your support.
 
Rollin said:
Our horses are very fit and sound, plenty of people on this forum are 'overhorsed' or spend all their money on vet fees for their lame horses.

There is plenty to praise in a closed stud book.
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I think you'd still end up with them even if there were a lot more CBs about!

With only about 50 mares on the premium list and the necessity to prevent in-breeding there is always going to be a top limit on number of foals that can be produced each year, and take a long time for that to increase.
 
Rollin I am really pleased the police are interested in the breed again x mum's friend used to be the secretary for the CB breed society.
 
ester said:
I think you'd still end up with them even if there were a lot more CBs about!

With only about 50 mares on the premium list and the necessity to prevent in-breeding there is always going to be a top limit on number of foals that can be produced each year, and take a long time for that to increase.
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Perhaps I express my self badly. Of course people will still be overhorsed and dissapointed - I just hoped that in highlighting the plight of the Cleveland Bay, people looking for a new horse would think outside the box.

The Premium scheme has been replaced by QA. Were you including both Premium and QA in your figures?

As with other stud books, mares are presented only at owners' request. It costs in time and money and the fact that some mares are not put forward for QA, does not mean they are not quality mares. In fact one of the most successful breeders of pure and part bred Clevelands, sees no value in going down this route.

I do and we paid for inspections last year, but overseas members incur much higher costs than UK members. It is a particular problem in the USA.

For my own mares I have enough choice to comply with the SPARKS programme to avoid in-breeding.

At the moment I have four pure bred mares, two part-bred fillies one of breeding age, and one pure bred yearling filly + a stallion.

I could in theory be breeding 6 pure and part bred per annum. If there is no market for Cleveland Bays, there is no point in breeding more. We balance our breeding programme with competition. All our pure bred mares are broken to ride.
 
Kaylum said:
Rollin I am really pleased the police are interested in the breed again x mum's friend used to be the secretary for the CB breed society.
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I wonder if they ever truly lost interest? The WHW officer in Central Scotland, was ex-mounted police and rode a pure bred mare who he was very fond of. I was a BHS access officer and did a lot of fund raising for BHS and WHW which is how we came to meet.

One of my English riding friends, here in France, has a good friend working for another mounted police force in North of UK. She has a part bred CB and the force have just purchased a pure bred.
 
I went on the CB society webpage and that is what it told me re. the mares.

It is a bit chicken and egg though, if we all decided that CBs were our ideal mounts and we wanted to buy one we couldn't.
 
ester said:
I went on the CB society webpage and that is what it told me re. the mares.

It is a bit chicken and egg though, if we all decided that CBs were our ideal mounts and we wanted to buy one we couldn't.
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Thank you, I will ask about that, I think some of the site is not as up to date as it should be. Agreed it is chicken and egg.
 
Gorgeous horses! Always liked them since I found out they were called Chapman horses years ago (little bit of surname pride).

If I were to buy a horse I'd love to looks at one of these around the 15.2hh range. I'm a pony person but I'd make an exception for these.
Love the build, there's a such a "classic" look to them. You could imagine them out hunting 200 years ago!
 
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