one sided and misinformed information relating to edts

chrisnapthineEDT

chrisnapthineEDT

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just wondering why certain people only give one sided views and inacurate information regarding equine dentistry on hear,,lots of you owners look to these people for accurate information yet recive half truths ect,,,,, i think its about time there was a web site ect that just gave accurate facts on both treatments and the law then you would all know what is correct and what is not...i feel sometimes im banging my head against a wall trying to be impartial yet people who i honestly thought would know better still talk well rubbish,,,based on maybe there own opinions.well in my eyes those of us who are dentists will never ever know everything or fail to be supprised by cases.the americans lead the way in the development of the proffesion mainly due to the ammount of horses they can do studys on....so all i ask is for you to look around yourselves,search you questions on the net rather than just taking the first answer you get...its your horse your money your choice to find out what is right and what is wrong...

rant over
chris
 
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i think its about time there was a web site ect that just gave accurate facts on both treatments and the law then you would all know what is correct and what is not...i feel sometimes im banging my head against a wall

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And your point was?? And what do you mean by "both treatments" - is that "treatment by a qualified EDT" or "treatment by someone who has no professional qualifications but has been rasping away for years"??

I would suggest you stop banging your head against a wall (it's having a poor effect on your spelling
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) and make your point (whatever it is!)
 
oh and as for my point.well i promised myself i would not get drawn into another slanging match so il try to be breif..im not going down the non qualified or qualified route as this has been done before and seen as none of the qualifications at present mean anything its a waiste of time allthough i do belive in qualified dentists or at least people attatched to an organisation working towards them but as there is going on 2million horses in the uk and a 100 or so qualified dentists so say 1 million are either not done or done by vets that still leaves a hell of a lot per dentist and as a dentist can only do say 1500 per year there is a shortfall of gigantuate proportions...so a horse getting some sort of dental care is maybe better than none at all... the rest of my point was about people saying this procedure is a cat 2 this is a cat 3 ect ect its all rubbish at the moment and not set out or defined yet,some guidelines have been laid out by 1 organisation yet there is 1 more and shortly 2 more that have to agree on those.. i just wish people giving out advise would do so with a open mind and cover all bases instead of preaching that what they say is right and the only way.... i would rather have a full range of answers and facts rather than one persons narrow minded view,then as owners you can all access the facts and make your own minds up....there is so many pollotics and arse licking going on its just a shame no one stands up and says you know what,you could try this ect or in my view .rather than this is right this is wrong ect,,,,there is no need for it at all.. rant over
 
Can't see why a slanging match is necessary - but discussion is good.

However, I disagree with you on a number of points!

I think the BEVA EDT qualification is VERY demanding, requires a lot of training (that is hard to get - and expensive) and a lot of supervised practice afterwards - with the need for the candidate to catalogue - what - 300 cases plus sit a stiff exam. There are other qualifications which might be as good - but not 'officially' recognised in the UK - or might be not so good.

Agree a lot of vets do teeth - some well - some appallingly badly! Fortunately BEVA is addressing this by providing dental work training for vets. But a good, well organised EDT should be able to do at least 10 horses a day - more when treating big yards. Last time my EDT came he did 15 horses in a full day, then went on to do two more after 6pm for a neighbour. But with smaller numbers, and travelling, he usually aims to do 10 a day. In a 5 day week, with 4 weeks holiday, that's nearly 2,500 (or a quarter of a million horses) done by Beva qualified EDTs.

There may be 2 million horses in the UK (I'll bet there aren't the passports to substantiate that figure) but take out foals to 2 year olds - who most people don't do, feral ponies, ponies belonging to travelling folk who probably don't use any sort of dentist, etc. there are probably no more than a million who are done regularly by anyone (and that's another problem.)

But with more and more vets polishing up their dental skills (and pushing their services as part of an Annual MOT for horses) and the students training at Hartbury, and the number of keen young people who are going to USA, getting basic training and then developing their skills further working with vets and EDTs prior to sitting the BEVA exam, I would expect that in the next 5 years there WILL be sufficient qualified EDT's and experienced vets to cater for the UK horse population - and that as more and more horse owners become aware of the need for GOOD dental treatment, there will be rather less call on the services of unqualified people.

As for your suggestion that Cat 1, Cat 2 etc is 'rubbish' - sorry, but once DEFRA gets off its backside and completes the review of legislation concerning equine dental treatment, then non-BEVA qualified tooth raspers will be restricted - by law - to the most basic of tooth rasping jobs(as they are now) - while the BEVA EDT will be permitted to carry out the more advanced procedures in category 2.

I really cannot understand the reluctance of experienced - if 'unqualified' horse 'dentists' to BECOME qualified - if they are good enough!! And if they're not good enough, why should owners pay good money to have their horses' health put at risk??

Just my little rant - and no, I'm not an EDT - just an owner with a lot of horses who wants their mouths cared for WELL!! I wouldn't use a non-qualified EDT if he paid ME!
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i have to say I can see where Chris is coming from. I don't think he is knocking the BEVA system but there have been a number of random comments made (on this website specifically) which have no grounding. Now these have come from various different groups of people and some are VERY negative about other people and will only serve to confuse the horse owning public more than help them. We should all be working together and encouraging each other to take the industry forward.

I have to admit I read some points from fellow EDT's and it makes my blood boil!

As Chris has said, the category system is a good one but it is not actually law at present. Many people keep batting this system around as gospel but they have been saying since before I started training in 2001 that 'any day now this law will be passed' well that was 8 years ago and we aren't any further forward.

I read on another thread someone said you can only get insurance if you are BEVA registered, well that's rubbish cos I am fully isnured and haven't done the BEVA exam.

Plus there are other dental organisations as well as the BAEDT working towards the same goals - WWAED http://www.wwaed.org/ for one.

It's so disheartening when false information gets put out as the truth. We all are working towards the same thing - care for the horse.
 
well said there and my point exactly... beva this beva that only beva dentists are qualified ,look on the beva list if they arnt on there then they are no good/not qualified ect. there is the wwaed that had defra approved exams and the iaed which is by far the largest organsisation worldwide has just been approved by defra to hold exams they have a lot of members who are not beva or worldwide qualified yet perform extremley high standards of work and generally at the forefront of new and up to date techniques.......and in the real world a dentist will struggle to do the said 10 a day everyday,if you are doing remedial work then by the time you have done 5 in the day you are ready for home.
 
and another quick point,where do the people who are working towards there exams and gathering up case files get work from if you should only use qualified dentists????? ..i have no grudge to bear only the desire for people to know the truth,, the truth is in reality there is no qualification that means anything at present as the work we all do is still illegal untill the law change,it is tolorated but still illegal...although im all for the qualification process it only means you met the required standard on that given day on that given horse it dous not mean you know everything and need no further training as you are the best.. the american certification process is far harder and takes 100s of hours ect so therefore is more thorough .but there again this is my opinion...... another point... i passed my driving test when i was 17 im 32 now and wouldnt stand a chance of passing it again but if i had taken several courses ever year for the last few years then maybe i would be at a better standard....passing a exam then pretending you are the authority on dentistry is nothing short of stupidity....... my view again
 
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Plus there are other dental organisations as well as the BAEDT working towards the same goals - WWAED http://www.wwaed.org/ for one.


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WWAED would seem to be heading in the right direction, but it has very few members (according to its own website) and fewer still are 'certified'. I personally would prefer to trust an organisation that is backed by the Veterinary profession/professional body rather than trust DEFRA (but that's probably because I have had rather too much experience with DEFRA's incompetence!
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But WWAED has been going for about 18 years and in that time appears to have attracted little support - it currently lists 13 dentists of whom 6 are 'level 2 qualified'. If equine 'dentists' don't support WWAED, this hardly inspires the confidence of horse owners, does it?
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.and in the real world a dentist will struggle to do the said 10 a day everyday,if you are doing remedial work then by the time you have done 5 in the day you are ready for home.

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Of course they won't do it EVERY day - travelling time would preclude that - but when you have big yards amongst your clientele and can spend the whole day there, 15 is imminently do-able - because most of them will be 'routine'. As I said, my EDT did 15 the other day, between 9am and 4.30 pm - WITH a short break for lunch. He also had a student from Hartbury with him - and also had the young man who works for me and is about to start training as an EDT looking over his shoulder and asking questions, having a feel and having a look!

Only one of the horses would count as 'remedial' (a 3 year old with a shear mouth and a wave - and retained caps) - and admittedly, all were in and waiting - and well behaved by most people's standards. But what sort of yard would have 5 remedials all at once?? And would owners really want an unqualified/uncertified 'dentist' doing remedial work? Let's face it, serious remedial work usually needs sedation which requires a vet (if you're staying within the law!)

I have no doubt that there ARE 'equine dentists' out there who are not 'qualified' but have good training and experience and do a good job. But how does the average horse owner really KNoW if they've found a good one - or not?? I have had 12 horses in for backing/schooling in the last 15 months that had serious mouth issues which needed sorting before we started. ALL of them had been seen by 'a dentist' or a vet for dental work in the previous 6-12 months! And NONE of them had been treated by a BEVA qualified EDT - if they HAD been, I would have had somewhere to report them for incompetence!!

Just as one example: one was a 5 year old horse with a parrot mouth. He had been seen twice in 12 months - once by a vet and once by an unqualified but well thought of equine dentist - because the owner was sure his mouth 'wasn't right'. Watching him quid good quality haylage, we agreed. He had HUGE hooks at the very back that had never been touched!! He was done by my very good vet - with essential sedation - and was a much happier horse within 24 hours! That owner had been assured he was fine - and she had paid for inadequate treatment!!
 
where do you work out the wwaed has been going 18 years???? and its exam is rcvs approved which if im not mistaken is the governing bodt for vets... also you state that 1 horse had a shear mouth so that would be a good 2 hour job correcting that,,yes all remedials are sedated by a vet, but as for staying within the law do you realise even your beva dentist is breaking the law????
and its quite possible to book 5 remedials in a day as most new clients round here have had very little dentistry done in the past or been rubbed over by 2 local dentists..im not on hear to crib anyone though but why are you so one sided in your view,, beva is not the be all and end all of equine dentists
 
i am not into slating other peoples work so il retract my earlier comments about dental work...there is many many people on hear who use dentists trained in the usa to a much higher standard than the uk so are you saying then janet that they are no good? shouldnt be used???

the wwaed dousnt see eye to eye with the beva organisation and you have to pass an entrance exam to join ect unlike beva plus the beva accepts people who have completed the hartbury course and exempts them from the theory exam where as the wwaed do not,,anyway at end of the day beva is good but by no means god,some of its members are fantastic yetsome not same as any industry..some like certain people while other hate them.. the man who first started me off in dentistry iis bob livock who is not accosiated with any organisation or exam yet he was a major part in the first political movment towards dentists here in the uk and is regarded by many as fantastic..he dous the likes of arco ect so by your view he will be rubbish and should not be used?? what about the certifeid in the usa dentists? they have undergone extensive training to reach the certification status at a great deal of cost and time and most importantly they must be producing a very high standard of work..

stick to people who renew there training or are commited to improving there skills with whichever organisation and you wont go far wrong,any dentist who maybe passed a exam a good few years ago and yet done no re training will undoubtedly be behind the times and having had no one to correct any bad habits ect( hence earlier comment about driving tests)) and i ask again janet george where do you get your statment about the wwaed going for 18 years????? thats madness
 
Sorry - I have problem understanding exactly what you are trying to say. It could be connected with your grammar, punctuation and general compositon of your text.
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it makes it more difficult what your clear argument is presumably that wwaed isn't getting sufficient coverage (for want of a better word)

but with only 13 across the country it would be kind of difficult for most people to support that specifically instead of the BEVA list.

TBH I don't give two hoots so long as my horses are seen to by someone I trust to do a decent job and is good with the horse.
 
your point is the only one im trying to make ester and so should everyone too. im in no way trying to get more coverage for them as it matters not what association anyone is in but that they speak and work in a honest way relying on facts rather than predudice(spelling again)

chris
 
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where do you work out the wwaed has been going 18 years???? and its exam is rcvs approved which if im not mistaken is the governing bodt for vets...

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Funnily enough, from the WWAED Website - it says:

"The inaugural meeting of the WWAED was held in Lincoln, Nebraska in 1991 to formulate a cohesive body of professional horse dentists, who could provide the highest level of care and treatment and advanced dental procedures." 1991 - 2009 - mmmm .... I'm no mathematician but I make that 18 years. And - as I said - WWAED appears to be going the right way - and I would be happy to use one of their members who had passed the Level 2 exam.

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also you state that 1 horse had a shear mouth so that would be a good 2 hour job correcting that,,

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Ah - no it wouldn't - unless you were trying to 'fix it' in one go - which would leave the poor bloody filly chewing on her gums! It WAS her second treatment - the first was done by my very good vet who has completed considerable extra dentistry training - in USA, Australia and here! INCLUDING removing 2 wolf teeth, that first treatment took just on an hour - and it levelled her mouth up as much as was necessary or humane in a 3 year old! He was very happy for my EDT to do the 2nd treatment - 4 months later - and she will be seen again in 6 months. Hopefully by then her mouth will be as close to 'normal' as it can be!!

Even in a much older horse with a very neglected mouth, I shudder to think what would be left after 2 hours of rasping - or how the horse would feel after 2 hours in a gag!! My own vet respects the BEVA EDT qualification because there are several good ones in this area who he has worked with. But he has also seen several horses just in the past year whose teeth had been BUTCHERED by unqualified people. His practice will happily sedate for BEVA EDT's - even though they have two vets with extra dental training and provide the service themselves.


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and its quite possible to book 5 remedials in a day as most new clients round here have had very little dentistry done in the past or been rubbed over by 2 local dentists..im not on hear to crib anyone though but why are you so one sided in your view,, beva is not the be all and end all of equine dentists

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well it depends what you call 'remedials' - but if you're taking more than an hour on a horse that does NOT have SEVERE mouth deformities - then I'd suggest that either:
1. the horse is ill-behaved
2. you're not leaving much tooth
3. you're having a lot of coffee breaks.
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I don't think I AM one-sided: I have said there ARE good, 'unqualified' equine dentists. I have said I would use someone who had the WWAED Level 2 exam. But I also believe strongly that most horse owners (and their horses!) would be far better off using someone who HAS passed a rigorous exam that is recognised in this country, rather than trying to determine for themselves if someone is competent - or which of the overseas 'qualifications' are sound - and which are 'given away' to anyone who pays for a short course!
 
the wwaed was not formed 18 years!! and as for a shear mouth it can be corrected in 1 go ive seen it done,not by me but i went along to watch,why would it be eating in its gums? shear mouths are generally only 1 side.they have plenty of breaks from the gag too.there is normally incisor work to do also which takes time,,plenty of remedial work takes over an hour to complete.you aslo seem to think that what you say is the only way ect.why is that? im not been funny or clever here now but maybe widen your horizons and look at other options ect.and as teeth errupt only 2 to 3 mil a year the shear mouth on a 3 yr old shouldnt of been to severe as its not had enough time to develop one...instead of corecting things over 2 or 3 visits and causing muscle change 2 or 3 times it can often be done in one go causing 1 lot of discomfort i.e. waves steps ect and almost all need some sort of incisor treatment or it would have a much to higher percentage of occlusion,thats another fib often told by dentists that they increase occlusion by doing teeth and you get nice figures on your sheet like was 65% now 80% ect,its total rubbish and infact the opposite,and thats a simple fact.

anyway this argument is not going where i first wanted it and is off course..

all i wanted is the best for people and there horses,so i was hoping that the people giving out advice did so in a truthfull and non biased way so as not to further confuse the horse owning public as its bad enough as it is,,,,,

all the best
chris
 
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the wwaed was not formed 18 years!!

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So you - a probationary member of WWAED - knows more than the people who provide the information on its web site - see http://www.wwaed.org/about.html IF you're right, I suggest you tell them they are providing false and misleading information on the site!!

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and as for a shear mouth it can be corrected in 1 go ive seen it done,not by me

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It MIGHT be possible in some cases - but where my filly is concerned: I saw it, my very experienced equine vet saw - and treated it; my very experienced and qualified EDT saw - and treated it. I think the three of us might be in a slightly better position to judge the practicalities of how it should be treated rather better than you are.

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you aslo seem to think that what you say is the only way ect.why is that? im not been funny or clever here now but maybe widen your horizons and look at other options ect.and as teeth errupt only 2 to 3 mil a year the shear mouth on a 3 yr old shouldnt of been to severe as its not had enough time to develop one..

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No - I don't think that. But I have owned and managed horses for over 50 years. I've seen a LOT of vets and dentists work on teeth - good ones and bad ones - and I've seen the horrific results of some of the bad ones. The shear mouth on my filly was NOT the worst I have seen - but it was severe. And the fact that the teeth hadn't erupted THAT far makes it MORE difficult to correct in one go as - on my filly - the only way to level it would have been to take it almost to the gum line - which would have made her mouth VERY lop-sided (the shear mouth was on one side only.)

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.instead of corecting things over 2 or 3 visits and causing muscle change 2 or 3 times it can often be done in one go causing 1 lot of discomfort i.e. waves steps ect

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It MIGHT be able to be done in one go in some horses. But the reason for correcting it slowly is primarily to allow the horse to adapt to the changes. A horse with mouth problems usually develops a way of dealing with them - they chew 'differently'. When you change the balance of the mouth they have to adapt and learn to chew more normally.

It's the same with feet. If you correct a severe imbalance in feet in one go, you put new strains on the feet, the muscles and tendons of the leg - and in many cases you can actually cause lameness - or worse.

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anyway this argument is not going where i first wanted it and is off course..

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That's what happens with discussions. Just because YOU say what you think, doesn't mean everyone will take what you say as gospel. And no poster on ANY forum has a right to dictate the course of a discussion! We're all entitled to express our opinion - even when it's not necessarily the same as yours.

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all i wanted is the best for people and there horses,so i was hoping that the people giving out advice did so in a truthfull and non biased way so as not to further confuse the horse owning public as its bad enough as it is,,,,,

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I suspect that many in the horse owning public are not quite so easily confused as you think. We read, we see, we experience - and then we make up our own minds!
 
impossible to reply to this as you oviosly know best dont you..................and no other way is good enough for you because you have owned horses for 50 years ect so know everything..... has your vet passed his level 2 exam???? probably not as not many have at all.....
when did your dentist last take a course??? why dont you answer the question on the statment you made regarding people getting qualificatons abroad for a short course??? you made it so please elaborate...... the wwaed in the world wide was 18 years ago the uk branch has been going since 2001 as far as im aware..but there again you will know better so i wish more owners had such superior knowledge as there would be no arguments..also please answer where do you think your beva dentists get there 300 case files in order to take there exams??? interested in your answer as you wont use a unqualified dentist so where and how do they gain the experience to qualify?????? and seen as you know so much about horse teeth please explain how most dentists increase occlusion yet perform no incisor work?????.and as for correcting a maloclusion in one go i would of thought seen as you have your horses best interest at heart that it would be better for your horse to only have to adapt once instead of 2 or 3 times??
 
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impossible to reply to this as you oviosly know best dont you.................

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Oh don't get your knickers in a twist, Chris - it's obviously not impossible because you keep doing it!
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and no other way is good enough for you because you have owned horses for 50 years ect so know everything.....

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Sadly, I don't know everything - but I DO try to learn something new every day.

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has your vet passed his level 2 exam???? probably not as not many have at all.....

[/ QUOTE ] He hardly needs to - BVM&S MRCVS - and 33 years equine experience since qualified - along with a LOT of short courses - in USA and Australia as well as here - is far more than most! Particularly as he also has to fit in refresher training on all the other advances in equine veterinary medicine. I am certainly very satisfied with his performance in all areas - and in his willingness to admit when something baffles him, or when he thinks a referral is needed to someone with more specialist knowledge in a particular area - he's been my vet for 22 years!

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when did your dentist last take a course???

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure - he mentioned a recent one last time he was here but I forgot to ask him to specify the EXACT date! And - BTW - he's an EDT - dentists do human teeth!!

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why dont you answer the question on the statment you made regarding people getting qualificatons abroad for a short course??? you made it so please elaborate......

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I'll look out the details when I have the time to trawl through hundreds of Google references - I found it some months ago when I was researching US training for the young man who works for me (he's off to Idaho in November as the first step in his training.) It offered a "Diploma in Equine Dentistry" or the like for a very expensive 4 week course! I discarded it as a possibility because it appeared to have no real substance!

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the wwaed in the world wide was 18 years ago the uk branch has been going since 2001 as far as im aware..but there again you will know better

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So the informationI quoted from the WWAED website was correct - the WWAED was established 18 years ago - thank you!

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also please answer where do you think your beva dentists get there 300 case files in order to take there exams??? interested in your answer as you wont use a unqualified dentist so where and how do they gain the experience to qualify??????

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I don't choose to use an unqualified EDT - that's my right as a client. It's not up to me to provide horses for novices to practice on!! Once the young man who works for me has completed the first stage of his training then I WILL let him do basic checks and minor work on my horses because I know him VERY well and am supporting him in his quest to train as an EDT.

For my satisfaction, his first stage will include the 3 weeks at Idaho, attending the BEVA/BVDA Advanced theoretical EDT course, AND spending at LEAST 5 days with my EDT and with my vet (both have agreed to help him.) Then - and only then - I'll let him do some of my horses under the supervision of my EDT or my vet - and if they're happy he's competent, he can start building up his case log on my horses. He has many horse owning friends who will also give him the same privelege. He is fortunate that he DOES have people who will help him - because the case log is possibly the hardest part of the BEVA requirement.

But I personally would NOT allow any other unqualified person to 'use' my horses - at my expense - to train on! If others want to - usually as a cheap option - that's up to them.

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and seen as you know so much about horse teeth please explain how most dentists increase occlusion yet perform no incisor work?????

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I really can't explain why 'most dentists' do that (I'll have to take your word for it that they DO.) My EDT doesn't - neither does my vet. And both of them work on incisors when necessary (and it often is.)

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and as for correcting a maloclusion in one go i would of thought seen as you have your horses best interest at heart that it would be better for your horse to only have to adapt once instead of 2 or 3 times??

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You might think that - I don't, nor does my very experienced vet, nor does my EDT. Small adaptations are usually FAR easier to make - even if you have to make them several times - than one HUGE adaptation - that applies to almost everything! So we'll just have to agree to differ on that point (and others.)

Now I THINK I've answered all your questions - perhaps you'd answer one of mine? And that is - are you planning to become fully qualified - either through BEVA/BVDA - or WWAED? If not, why not? Just curious.
 
we just are not going to agree are we.
the answer to your question is yes ive been waiting 2 years for the wwaed to scedule a level 2 exam of which they are now this coming october and november and im booked on to take it.

so im going to leave this as it is as we clearly have differnt views on subject but i suppose thats part of life...

all the best
chris
 
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we just are not going to agree are we.
the answer to your question is yes ive been waiting 2 years for the wwaed to scedule a level 2 exam of which they are now this coming october and november and im booked on to take it.

so im going to leave this as it is as we clearly have differnt views on subject but i suppose thats part of life...



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I think you'd find there are a LOT of things we agreee on Chris - just a few on which we differ. All the best for Level 2!
 
ok . and thanks for the support
didnt mean to come across funny and i suppose i should just keep quiet sometimes but often feel i need to speak out rather than hide in the shadows...

yours
chris
 
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