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Clodagh

Clodagh

Playing chess with pigeons
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With an unpleasant atmosphere on the forum tonight I'm not sure I should be asking this, but I have been thinking about it today and would like to know your thoughts.
Do dogs that live alone with humans become so humanised they find it difficult to communicate with other dogs
And
Are dogs that live in packs easier to train. (Or those that don't like the word packs, groups, if that is better.)

My puppy's sister came over today, she doesn't interact with other dogs on a day to day basis although is well socialised and has just started agility. She wants to play and play and doesn't take any of the subtle hints the older dogs give, they have to really go for her to get her to stop.

She isn't nearly as well behaved as our pup( pat on the back for us), although her owners use totally different training methods. Do you think that dogs that learn to look what other dogs are telling them are better at working out what a human is saying?
 
all of my dogs have been fine with others whether they have been an only dog or a pair....I think it is how they are bought up rather than how many dogs are in the household. also every dog has a different personality and some like to play more than others so maybe your puppys sister got all the PLAY genes....lets hope this thread stays pleasant!!!!!!
 
Yes, lets hope so!
I have never had an only dog so am not qualified to comment. Have to say our pup can be a PITA but having been properly squashed by my old lurcher when she was small now picks up the head averted or curled lip very quickly.
 
Interesting. Our dog is an only dog and is now 8 months old. She's also got our company 24/7.

She interacts brilliantly and very normally with other dogs, doing (from what I can see) exactly what she should do. She's naturally very friendly and curious, but I've also made sure she mixes with other dogs as much as possible.

She's boisterous and playful, but respectful. And if a dog isn't interested in her she leaves them alone.

I'm lucky because I live in a community where most people have dogs - and a walk on the beach soon becomes one huge, wonderful dog party. So Daisy has plenty of opportunities to mix and socialise, and develop her understanding of various signals.

I can't speak to the training aspect of your post - because I don't think that I'm training her per se. Simply giving her the opportunity of acting out natural behaviour with other dogs. And I suppose other aspects of her training we are doing subconciously......

As for her working out what I'm saying. I let you know when the penny drops:D
 
OP, those questions are too big to be answered on a forum, even if I felt brave enough to try!

But surely it is pretty obvious that anyone who can observe a group of dogs interacting socially with minimal interference is going to have a better understanding of their behaviour and body language than someone who just keeps one as a pet? If the trainer understands what the body language means, it is surely going to make it easier for him to achieve his objectives?

Scott and Fuller did some work on this which you can read about in "Dog Behavior; The Genetic Basis". "The Dog; Its Domestication and Behavior" is another good one. But I don't think either fully answer your questions.
 
Clodagh said:
……..

Do dogs that live alone with humans become so humanised they find it difficult to communicate with other dogs
And
Are dogs that live in packs easier to train. (Or those that don't like the word packs, groups, if that is better.)

……..
Click to expand...

Interesting questions. To line one, I'd suggest that however tuned to the canine psyche the owner of a dog may be, actually replicating another dog's behaviour would be difficult, if not impossible, so it would be more than likely that a dog which has only ever considered a human, then I suspect that the animal would struggle to fit in with other canines, perhaps.

To line two, providing that 'the pack' accept the human as leader, and show that leader due deference, then I suppose that it would almost be easier, the youngster getting in step. If the pack have a canine leader, and to the exclusion of the human, then I would think that training such a dog would be very difficult.

All of this, of course is accepting that we consider the pack theory to make sense. If we don't, and we have several dogs, then I'm not too sure how anyone would manage.

Alec.
 
Interesting thoughts. Amymay - sounds like your little dog has got it made! And at least she gets to play freely. My pups sister never gets to run off lead with another dog unless she is here.
With horses youngsters that live in a herd are easier than them that don't, so although dogs thinks and react totally differently I wonder if it still helps.
 
depends on each dogs individual temperament as well as owners and the dogs opportunity to exercise mind and body, a young dog that lives with others has far more mental stimulation that one that lives alone the same is true for physical exercise. if the owners are anxious and high energy during any dog to dog interaction then the dog will/can feel anxious at these times too.
if the dog does not get enough exercise/stimulation it can be overreacting to stimuli when it is available and some dogs just need more than others.
there are so many factors that can play a part (many more than stated) and it is different for every dog, every owner and every dog owner combination.
 
I suspect imprinting and socialisation would be major factors. Pups learn a lot of things in their early life. There are marked differences between dogs born and reared with siblings and those without. Also at what stage they are taken away from the litter and reared in the home. And how and when instincts are awakened, if at all.
 
Clodagh.
I've been having the same thoughts. I took on a rescue GSP who as far as I can make out wasn't ever socialised with dogs or humans. He always seems at a disadvantage with other adult dogs as he does not seem to understand what he's supposed to do and tends to give off the wrong message..ie desperate to play but lacking confidence to join in. Confident when he's with his BF but if on his own much more cautious and tends to warn off other dogs. My assessment of him would be that living as part of a pack for a while would be very good for him. On a positive note he returns to me now if we encounter strangers or other dogs on our walks so I guess I am becoming his safe place too.
Because I felt that he needed a full time canine companion I've now got a 6 month old pup so he's learning that she can be bossed about ... For now anyhow :)
I think it does depend on the individual dog but my feeling is that they are pack animals and as such would ideally need canine companions.
I love watching dogs play together and interact as that is when they seem happiest to me.
 
Clodagh said:
Interesting thoughts. Amymay - sounds like your little dog has got it made! And at least she gets to play freely. My pups sister never gets to run off lead with another dog unless she is here.
Click to expand...

Yes, she has got it made. Our training is coming on nicely, and overall I think she's quite pleased with her peoples development. She has us well and truly where she wants us :D

On a more serious note though. She's been off the lead since the day we got her. And in public since she was old enough and fully vaccinated (in 'safe' places obviously). It is so very sad to see dogs who can't have that freedom - for whatever reason.
 
Clodagh said:
...
Do dogs that live alone with humans become so humanised they find it difficult to communicate with other dogs
And
Are dogs that live in packs easier to train. (Or those that don't like the word packs, groups, if that is better.)
...
Click to expand...


Yes, in general, I think that it affects a dogs ability to interact with other dogs, and learn dog language, in a negative way, if it doesn't get enough time/opportunities to interact with other dogs while growing up.

No, I don't think that dogs who lives in a pack/group are always easier to train, because some dogs who grows up that way, becomes to focused on the other dogs, and doesn't think that humans are that important.

Basically, I think that it is not good with neither too much, nor too little.


Clodagh said:
...
Do you think that dogs that learn to look what other dogs are telling them are better at working out what a human is saying?
Click to expand...


Since I think that breeding the majority of dog breeds, to some extent involves favouring the dogs who interacts well with humans, I don't think that a dog that is good at dog language, has to be better on "reading" humans, than a dog that is not good at dog language.


Clodagh said:
Interesting thoughts. Amymay - sounds like your little dog has got it made! And at least she gets to play freely. My pups sister never gets to run off lead with another dog unless she is here.
With horses youngsters that live in a herd are easier than them that don't, so although dogs thinks and react totally differently I wonder if it still helps.
Click to expand...


Personally, I believe that what I've highlighted in your post, is the answer to why she doesn't understand your dogs more subtle hints, when they want her to calm down/when they don't want to play any more.

I think that it is partly an individual thing, how much time/opportunities a puppy needs to play off leash with other dogs, to be able to develop good dog language skills. Some needs more, some needs less. Judging by your posts, I think it sounds as if that puppy needs more time/opportunities to play off leash with other dogs, than what she currently gets.
 
Our Fizz puppy is a rude thug, despite getting her head kicked in regularly by both Jack and our friends dogs. She can be totally find but when she goes into 'Whippet Whizz Mode' she is rude, OTT and generally pain. She have lived with a few dogs, lives with Jack and walks regularly with other dogs. When she gets Whizzing with sighthounds it's fine as they're all doing the same thing but when she's trying to play that way with cockers etc she gets her head kicked in.

I do let them btw, she needs to learn and the hard way lol.
 
I have a theory that some dogs speak better 'dog' than others! I find it fascinating watching my dog interact with other dogs. Some she will actively avoid, not even looking at them, I imagine these dogs might be giving of aggressive signals, other dogs she greets ready to play, amorous male dogs are sent packing with a backwards snarl as she moves to get away from them, puppies are tolerated for a while and then receive a warning throaty growl, more of a vibration than a sound! She was a stray before she was rescued so maybe she needed to hone her communication skills to survive!
 
Rhaloulou you are probably so right. We have got a rescue lurcher and she has got dog talk down to a fine art.Other dogs tend to leave her alone, she just walks in a certain confident way that says she is not interested. She squashes boisterous puppies. She doesn't really play, except for her favourite game of Waterloo cup, where she used to course the terrier. now the terrier is dead and Sash is ancient that has come to a stop. (She didn't kill it!).
Annette - we always let them sort it out themselves too, it would be a dysfunctional dog to really hurt a pup, IMO.
 
Clodagh.
The first two weeks We had pup Sam gave her two over jealous corrections ..she shrieked and I shrieked and he looked quite taken aback and retreated to his bed. the 2nd time she got a bruise on the inside of her thigh and since then he's been fine with her. I actually don't think he realised what he was doing. He still squashes her with his paws and chews on her but no more shrieks or yelps from pup. I did not leave them alone for the first 3 weeks just in case. She now hangs off his ears when they run together and he doesn't even tell her off ..well those big ears are so tempting :D
The difference between the two is a reflection of how they were treated at the start out. Pup was in a pound before taken out and fostered with a lot of other dogs and does seem far better in reading other dogs even though she's just 6 months old.
There are photos in my album ( Sam and Phoebe) if you wish to see them
 
FinnishLapphund said:
Since I think that breeding the majority of dog breeds, to some extent involves favouring the dogs who interacts well with humans, I don't think that a dog that is good at dog language, has to be better on "reading" humans, than a dog that is not good at dog language.

.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, labradors for instance need to be good tempered, easily trained, and want to work with you. Not the same with, say, terriers.
 
I can't really answer point 2 as we never tried to train our alone JRT (big mistake) and my first gsd was 1 by the time I met him. As for pt 1, I read that smaller dogs had instinct more wired in, whereas bigger dogs needed to learn behaviour a little bit more and this meant the early days with siblings were important. Also the dog's physical appearance matters when trying to communicate; floppy ears are harder to read than upright ones etc.

Dunno if there's any truth to it. Our alone gsd was incredibly sociable with people and dogs. He would sit with people given the chance, but liked other dogs. My second gsd grew up in a pack of 23 (two big litters at once) and had our first for guidance, but he's not keen on other dogs. And the third one has had people and other dogs to play with, loves everyone but loves me best! They are allvery good at reading other dogs but err on the side of caution in all cases.

Not sure why this would be a controversial thread... Genuine question <fetches tin hat, ducks behind youngest gsd>
 
RhaLoulou said:
I have a theory that some dogs speak better 'dog' than others! &#8230;&#8230;.. !
Click to expand...

That's a good and valid point. Just as humans differ in their abilities to assimilate body language and even warnings, so dogs will be the same. The quiet mouse which hangs back will be the one who's never, if ever, going to be corrected by her peers, and conversely, just as with some human lads, there will be those who learn the hard way!

Pack hierarchy will depend upon many factors, not least how benign and confident the leader is, be they two legged or four. Thinking now about the opening question, then I suppose that those youngsters which have learned from adults will be more likely to be accepting of human discipline.

Alec.
 
Clodagh said:
Gorgeous dogs, is Sam a saluki lurcher? I probably should know that from following threads on here.
Click to expand...

Sam is the big pointer.
Phoebe does look Saluki and loves to run especially on grass and is very agile so definitely hound like movement. However shes tiny 7.5 kg and at 6 months won't get much bigger I think. Also has webbed feet? She's what I'd imagine you'd get if you crossed a retriever x saluki but is too small for that so anyone's guess..unless I do her DNA test.
 
Oops TrasaM! She is a mini hound.

Alec - I suppose that depends if the human discipline is 'said' in a dog way or a human way. I growl if they are bad - does that count!
 
Clodagh,

But then the dog has to learn and accept what is expressed as pleasure and what isn't. Once understood, then just as when we watch the very best dressage riders where the imperceptible movements, almost suggestions, are taken on board and so the dog, as the horse, is in tune with us. To most dogs, our body language conveys as much as does our spoken voice. Eventually, dogs as horses will respond to the minutiae of our movements, and that's the point where we have a bond. It's a bond which I have only EVER had, with working sheepdogs.

There are certainly those dogs (breeds often) which 'want' to serve, and those which 'don't'!!

If we ask a dog to perform an act for us, regardless of what it is, then we have to 'explain' ourselves in language that the dog understands, obviously. It never fails to surprise me how all those who handle dogs, even the novices, will have the dog's focus when asking the dog to 'Sit' whilst it's beside them, and then when the dog's 30' away, it's deaf to all entreaties. Maintaining the dog's focus when, in the case of a spaniel, it's 20 yards away, is exactly the same as with a Lab at 100 yards or the Sheepdog at 600 yards.

Alec.
 
RhaLoulou said:
I have a theory that some dogs speak better 'dog' than others!


We had 7 dogs a various breeds and a range of ages, including 2 JRT litter sisters, who had been born in the farm kitchen, so plenty of human voices around them from day 1. One of them loved to sit and 'watch the words' but rarely understood what was said to her. She communicated well with her sister but seemed to need the sister to translate/mediate for her with the other dogs. We always said tat she only spoke jrt while her sister spoke 'dog' and English.

After the last of those 7 died we bought 2 Rottweiler bitch puppies from the same litter. It was very noticeable for the first few weeks that they didn't speak English. It was more than 40 yrs since we had had pups with no adults to show them what to do and it was very noticeable that they didn't have any-one but us to show them what we expected of them. They are very well socialised though and cope well with meeting other dogs, both the ones that they know well and strangers.
Click to expand...
 
Sadly, my lot don't get to socialise as one is very dog aggressive. The other two often go out together and are fine with other dogs but Bear will go a bit OTT a telling off rude dogs who bounce and get in his face. They're just not interested in other dogs, but all adore people. We're very antisocial so they mostly only see us.

Re the pack thing, my first two were a piece of cake to train and the less intelligent one learnt from the more intelligent one. The current youngsters were damned hard because the more intelligent one needs a job and is inventively naughty if bored. Again, the less intelligent one learns from his cleverer brother and follows his lead. If Zak jumps the fence to go to the park, so does Bear and Brig will come trotting into the house to tell us that they're gone :rolleyes3:
 
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