Opening a Livery yard

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henrybrown

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I was thinking about opening a livery yard soon however I know how tough it is and was wondering whether I could make a living of it.
I live on a family farm so do have many pros:
Stables basically ready to go
Free muck disposal
Bridleways all around
Live right next door

Can I make a profit of 10 stables?
Are these pros going to put me ahead?
Can I make a proper living ?

I would have to build arena but could do it for very cheap as farm has machinery so would only have to buy in surface + fence. (6k ish)
 
Are you planning on doing DIY livery only or offering services? Degree of profit would depend on that, but, either way, it's not going to be much money unless you're in an area where land/spaces is at a premium.

The other thing that sticks out to me about your post is you don't mention turnout - how much grazing would be available? Is it enough that the horses will have access to turnout even in the increasingly wet winters? That's what makes a lot of owners choose or turn away from a yard.
 
UPDATE

Sorry I forgot to mention.
9 acres of grass turnout and also small areas of hardstanding
Planning on full + part livery

There is a livery yard 1 mile away and another 2 miles away in the other direction ? Is this going to be a deal breaker but I am in a fairly horsey area.
 
You need to cost per box and work from there. DIY is unlikely to make a profit and will cause you stress. Part or full livery May work but you’d need to employ someone to work for you unless you’ve time to turn out / muck out 2 x a day. Have you 40 acres of decent land available split into summer / winter grazing or for 10 horses look at 5 fields with two in at minimum of 3 acres. Probably easier ways to make money unless you particularly like horses, and if you do and it’s successful you’ll have a constant stream of people wanting help!
 
henrybrown said:
UPDATE

Sorry I forgot to mention.
9 acres of grass turnout and also small areas of hardstanding
Planning on full + part livery

There is a livery yard 1 mile away and another 2 miles away in the other direction ? Is this going to be a deal breaker but I am in a fairly horsey area.
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No!! 9 acres is not sufficient. Basic turnout is a minimum of 1 acres per horse plus another acres BUT you need to be able to rent or reseed. You’re wasting your time even thinking about 10 horses on 9 acres. If you’re short of money maybe consider renting the set up to two friends for sole use.
 
It’s phenomenally difficult to make a living or decent contribution to family finances through DIY livery and on 9 acres you could only have 4/5horses. You might be better to rent to one professional horse person ( showing/ schooling/ breaking in not rescue) but you d be starting from a loss as you d need an arena and that would eat into acreage and horse numbers. Whereabouts in the country are you based?
 
henrybrown said:
UPDATE

Sorry I forgot to mention.
9 acres of grass turnout and also small areas of hardstanding
Planning on full + part livery

There is a livery yard 1 mile away and another 2 miles away in the other direction ? Is this going to be a deal breaker but I am in a fairly horsey area.
Click to expand...
Where are you? Sounds great!! 🤣 But agree you don’t have enough grazing really for 10 horses unless you restricted it considerably over winter and then you might limit who wants to go there. Unless you had some ponies who can manage on less…
 
As someone who ran a DIY yard for years I wouldn't bother. If you offer full/part you will need to pay someone and don't forget insurance and maybe business rates. Just renting out to someone would be less hassle.
 
I think you’d struggle to get a decent arena put down for £6k even with doing the groundwork yourself. And a poor surface will just cost you more in the long run or become unusable.

In your position I’d rent out privately without arena to a single person / friends with max. 4/5 horses. There’s no money in livery and no joy in trashed fields.
 
Develop a couple of short term and long term scenarios in excel. You need to model the commercials. Do a tops down model to determine profitability, then run some bottoms up models that back into the tops down.

Add levers to the model (economic down turn, seasonality, drought: bad debts, maintenance and repairs) and work through the models.

Might seem tedious but it means you can do short term and long term planning to consider if it’s viable.

Outside what your offerings are you MUST set up water tight commercial contracts for any clients. Horse people are poor payers and you need to be clear (and financially punitive) to make sure you have adequate cash flow.
 
Depending on location you might be able to charge £150 per horse on DIY, and add perhaps £15 per horse per day if on part livery (turned out, mucked out, brought in). If you are somewhere very desirable it may be a bit more, again if you add the arena. Much of the ‘services’ charge would go to a groom if you need to employ one. It’s not a massive profit and you have to factor in admin and maintenance. That said, if you have enough hard standing you could make winter turnout areas to minimise the impact on the land and so have more horses. You don’t say how many stables you have, personally I think you can achieve more than one horse per 2 acres.
 
Are you intending to run this business with full insurance, planning permission for the arena, change of use, full business and tax declaration, etc. or are you going for a 'cash-in-hand' setup on the black economy? You don't have to answer on here, but think about it.

There is a focus at the moment by HMRC on 'hidden' businesses and employee pay and national insurance payments, with focus on equestrian businesses high on the list. Too many equestrian employers aren't currently paying minimum wage and abiding by NI and other personnel requirements and as above if you are intending to do full and part livery you will need to employ staff.

Either way, at the moment another important question is that of the ultimate impact of extra/improved facilities and buildings on a family owned farm's value (not a tenant farm). Improvements will ultimately increase the amount of inheritance tax that will be levied by this despicable government.

You say it's a family farm - have you fully discussed the tax and business rates, etc., implications with the family members that own the farm?
 
Absolutely no profit to be made on 10 stables/9 acres and only 6k invested in arena materials. You aren’t going to attract liveries on that who would pay a price to even break even.
 
I disagree that there is no profit to be made. I have 9 liveries plus my 5 horses on 18 acres, 10 of it split into small paddocks between half and 1.5 acres, so that I can rotate regularly. I run it differently, with them all out 24/7 so no mucking out, and manage the services (checking and feeding ad giving hay) with one self employed member of staff. We do have stables if they are occasionally needed, and an arena.

The cost is approx £350 per month per horse (plus hay and feed), so I take over £3k per month, and my groom earns about £600 for the work she does (and has her horse here for nothing). We do the maintenance ourselves with a tractor, harrow and so on, my OH is thankfully good at fencing. I don't think it would be very profitable if I had to rent the property but as in the case of the OP, if the property is owned, you can make some money on it. It would be a living for many people - sadly not me, my house etc are too expensive, and I have another job, but it's a much appreciated extra income. Obviously you have to factor in insurance, rates and so on but it covers my horses' costs plus more.

ETA: we hear a lot about livery yards closing down at the moment, and about how customers aren't willing to pay a reasonable amount for the service they receive considering the value of land and cost of maintenance. In my opinion this will have to change as yards become more scarce, and a good yard offering a decent service will do ok. My experience has shown me that many people aren't willing to pay what I ask, wanting rock bottom prices for 'grass livery', but yet there are enough out there who want more by way of help and facilities, and who will pay for it. You don't need to offer the cheapest service. Another opinion, for the OP who is planning on this venture, people do really appreciate good customer service and friendliness, which seem in short supply among livery businesses. You only have to read this forum to see how many people tolerate bitching and bullying, and YOs who let it go on. Offer a yard where people can enjoy their horses, where they aren't treated badly either as customers or bullied by other liveries, and people will want to be there. Good luck with it.
 
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Amymay Again said:
But you have enough land @Abacus
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I agree the scale is a little different. I did simplify a bit, apologies - 8 acres of mine is rented (cheaply) which may be similar to the situation if the OP were to rent a bit more from his family farm. My main intention was to provide some real numbers to support his business calculations, and perhaps to provide a more positive view of this as a business. Also, to offer an opposing viewpoint to the people who say you can't keep 10 horses on 9 acres (currently I have 10 horses on 9.5 acres of mine, as some will be kept back for hay). Yes the fields have some mud in winter (and you could help this situation with mud mats or hardstanding) but they come back well and aren't just ruined by it.
 
The only way most livery businesses are viable is if you don't have a mortgage or rent to pay - or if you have a secondary source of income.
Very hard to make any actual profit with the cost of everything these days!
 
Abacus said:
I agree the scale is a little different. I did simplify a bit, apologies - 8 acres of mine is rented (cheaply) which may be similar to the situation if the OP were to rent a bit more from his family farm. My main intention was to provide some real numbers to support his business calculations, and perhaps to provide a more positive view of this as a business. Also, to offer an opposing viewpoint to the people who say you can't keep 10 horses on 9 acres (currently I have 10 horses on 9.5 acres of mine, as some will be kept back for hay). Yes the fields have some mud in winter (and you could help this situation with mud mats or hardstanding) but they come back well and aren't just ruined by it.
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You do have to consider the type of land.

Wet land you definitely cannot offer any form of reasonable turnout for 10 horses / 9 acres. It would be heavily restricted in winter and/or heavy investment needed in allweather surfaces.

You could just about get by with really good land probably managed as individual turnout.

Irrespective, that kind of yard is going to need really good exercise facilities to encourage the type of livery that would be happy with that level of turnout.

The price people are willing to pay will be regional dependant and also it will depend on what else in the area is available.

I can’t see any shorter-mid term real return on investment. Pocket money at most.
 
Abacus said:
I disagree that there is no profit to be made. I have 9 liveries plus my 5 horses on 18 acres, 10 of it split into small paddocks between half and 1.5 acres, so that I can rotate regularly. I run it differently, with them all out 24/7 so no mucking out, and manage the services (checking and feeding ad giving hay) with one self employed member of staff. We do have stables if they are occasionally needed, and an arena.

The cost is approx £350 per month per horse (plus hay and feed), so I take over £3k per month, and my groom earns about £600 for the work she does (and has her horse here for nothing). We do the maintenance ourselves with a tractor, harrow and so on, my OH is thankfully good at fencing. I don't think it would be very profitable if I had to rent the property but as in the case of the OP, if the property is owned, you can make some money on it. It would be a living for many people - sadly not me, my house etc are too expensive, and I have another job, but it's a much appreciated extra income. Obviously you have to factor in insurance, rates and so on but it covers my horses' costs plus more.

ETA: we hear a lot about livery yards closing down at the moment, and about how customers aren't willing to pay a reasonable amount for the service they receive considering the value of land and cost of maintenance. In my opinion this will have to change as yards become more scarce, and a good yard offering a decent service will do ok. My experience has shown me that many people aren't willing to pay what I ask, wanting rock bottom prices for 'grass livery', but yet there are enough out there who want more by way of help and facilities, and who will pay for it. You don't need to offer the cheapest service. Another opinion, for the OP who is planning on this venture, people do really appreciate good customer service and friendliness, which seem in short supply among livery businesses. You only have to read this forum to see how many people tolerate bitching and bullying, and YOs who let it go on. Offer a yard where people can enjoy their horses, where they aren't treated badly either as customers or bullied by other liveries, and people will want to be there. Good luck with it.
Click to expand...
how do you mange all year turnout im wanting to do a similar thing myself and im not sure how to do it? Do you live in a rainy area? Also would you qualify what you offer half livery?
 
dede said:
how do you mange all year turnout im wanting to do a similar thing myself and im not sure how to do it? Do you live in a rainy area? Also would you qualify what you offer half livery?
Click to expand...
We have the 9.5 acres split into 14 fields from small to larger (up to about 1.5 acres). I rotate when they get very muddy by the gate, and aim to only use about half the fields max at any one time. We get about average rainfall - in Oxfordshire. Last year was wetter than normal, so far this year very dry. I’m considering mud mats for the gateways next winter. I describe it as ‘grass part livery’ or ‘grass livery with services’ - no DIY as it’s impossible to feed them in the field with people turning up to feed their own individually.
 
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