Opinion of saddle fit - opinions please!

Orchardbeck

Orchardbeck

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Hi all

I wonder if I could invite you to pass comment on how this saddle fits (or doesn't) fit my mare. I have posted the link to the album rather than post the individual pictures, but I am only talking about the first 7 pics where she is wearing an Ideal Apex, in a medium wide, 16.5"- (the rest are of her previous saddle, a Thorowgood cob in a 17").

http://http://s1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/snorman1/

She dropped a bit of condition since the first pics with wearing her grazing muzzle and being out 24/7 rather than being stabled overnight but we're slowly building it back up.

I have a fitter coming out on Wednesday to check it and perhaps change it, but I really don't think my mare likes it much, even though I do, as she has started to be nappy again. I've been riding her bareback in between the two saddles and she was fine then so it must be the saddle.

My problem is her big shoulders - She also has a high wither as you can see, along with a classic Arab wide ribcage.

The Ideal Apex I am told is built on the H&C tree, so should be wider, but has a more standard head for a bit of a wither - I contacted Ideal and they said it would be appropriate for a widish Arab cross with a bit of a wither. It is a smaller seat size by 1/2 an inch too.

The Ideal seems to push against her shoulder which is obviously making her uncomfortable. Should it sit further back than I have it? Is it too narrow for her, although if it were wider it would give even less wither clearance - when I'm on there is only 2 fingers at best.

Can anyone recommend anything (second hand - as she is 22 I can't justify the spend of a new or m2m so she would just be ridden bareback or field ornament otherwise). Would you think a wintec dressage would be of any use? Sorry for the essay.
 
The Ideal looks awful on her to me. Too wide, too forward cut, the tree appears too curved and it looks either super close contact and/or very understuffed.

The thorowgood looks better to me but still too wide at the back for her. Have you tried a standard thorowgood, not a cob?
 
terrible fit, the tree shape is completely the wrong shape, as she drops away at the sides and hs a fairly straight back, you need a saddle with a flatish tree and wide panels the curve down along her sides so the whole panel is in contact with her back and not sitting up off her back like this one does. This saddle will basically jump up and down off the horses back, no matter what the width is and how tight the girth is one up. I would suggest a thorowgood flat tree type with wide panles. The other saddle is those pics is a much better tree shape, you can see the panels dont jump up at the back, however the saddle still looks perched, so again, something with a wider gullet to sit almost around the horse and not 'on' it if that makes sense.
 
I agree with above! Another alternative to the standard TB would be a High wither just think it may suit her shape? I have an ID x and was stunned that my High wither TB's saddle actually fitted him far better than his own saddle. You can still go up to a wide gullet if needed.
 
Hi Flame, thanks for your post. I have tried a new Thorowgood VSD on her in a 17", which is the smallest size in the straighter cut, and it was too long for her.

I used to ride her for a few years in the old style (Griffin)Thorowgood pony club saddle which I bought new and ignorantly fitted myself - we began to have similar napping problems and I have since tried about 10 saddles on her and had two fitters out on 4 occasions. I feel she needs a straighter cut, like a working hunter or something.
 
Thanks Pixiebee and Mcnally - I think I may have crossposted with you- re the Thorowgood comments!

I haven't tried a Thorowgood high wither for the same reason as the GPD - the 17 inch seat seemed too long on her, particularly as her big shoulders mean she needs clearance and the saddle will end up even further back on her loin. The only real option there would be a Pony club in a 16.5", but then it may still be too forward cut.

I gave up on the Cob after lots of trials of different ways of fitting, but it was just too wide and long, and slipped a lot, causing the lumps you can see in one of the pics.

Someone suggested a wintec may actually be a better shape for her as although her ribs are wide, her back goes narrower, but I used to ride her in a Wintec 500 years ago and didn't like it much.She is just such a difficult shape.
 
Ahh, yea i suppose they do come back a long way compared to some- It was a problem i had buying mine. I had to go size down to make it suitable for the horse as he was quite shortbacked.
Would treeless be an option? I have no knowledge of them but they seem to be very popular with difficult to fit owners.
 
Mcnally - thanks again! I have considered treeless as a last resort, although I'm a little bit worried about pressure points, and getting the right saddle as some aren't suitable for high withered beasties supposedly!

Plus the majority of the better makes of treeless look a little less than traditional - but then if it fits... I have a couple of friends who have them and really rate them so I might see if I can trial one. The Heather Moffett Flexee looks interesting though. It's so frustrating!
 
I'm no expert, but IIWY I'd try heading away from saddle makes that tend to be recommended for arabs/natives/flat backs. Your mare has a slight curve to her back front to back, but she's also very ^ shaped either side of her spine and the saddles you've looked at suit horses which are flat across the top from side to side IYSWIM. You want ^ shaped panel angles but not too much curve from front to back and, as you know, not too much length. Think about more sports horses type trees like Barnsbys, Albions, etc, and yes she'd be easier to fit with a straighter cut saddle.

I hope this is some help, I'm guessing a bit but I think that's what i'd try next IIWY.
 
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She looks like she has muscle wastage behind the withers which the ideal is sitting into, making it appear too wide, but (and i'm no expert so fully expect to be corrected) without these, I don't think it would be too wide on her. The rest of it would still sit horribly, but I don't think the width is the issue. Have you thought about getting her fitted with a front riser to fill in the wastage? The TG looks like it might be sitting in the wastage, allowing no room for growth. Don't know if any of that will be remotely helpful tbh, I have no brands to suggest!
 
Thanks flame, i've only recently ventured in to leather saddles so that help on styles of makes is really helpful - i'll see if I can try a few.

Pianf - thanks also, you are dead right, if she didn't have the hollows it would be far too tight. With the thorowgood I experimented with a prolite wither pad, a prolite front and back riser, a nuumed half pad, a nuumed thick numnah, all with varying results. I'm all prepared to pad if I can find something that otherwise fits. I haven't tried the nuumed wither pad, that could also be an option.
 
An option on a different saddle obviously! Do you think a wintec dressage would have the right shape and be straight enough cut?
 
My Arab looks a lot like yours. The bony spine, the high withers honestly she is very much the same it ridonkulous! We have just gone treeless which is ideal. I hav a pad for shimming underneath the actual saddle although the saddle I got has panels so the spine an wither clearance is sufficient. It might be worth trying. If I could have afforded it I would hav gone for the hm flexee but didn't wan to spend loads if we weren't going to get on with it. I went fo a libra hack about which was only ninety quid.its really comfy but I have yet to properly test it but it might be worth going down that route.
 
My oldie, the one you have commented on about his condition, is Arabx, and I've just had a Wintec fitted for him. My saddle fitter suggested it, I bought one (2nd hand) with changable gullets and flocking, and he altered both to fit, and it's a really lovely comfortable saddle for the rider, and he seems to like it too. It's a Wintec 2000 and was 16" as the boy is only 14.2hh. Saddle fitter said Wintec 500 would have done the job too.
 
Claribella, thanks for that, I'm really not sure where to start with treeless models as they all seem so different! I'm bearing it in mind as a last resort.

Crazydancer - It's wierd, I've been avoiding Wintecs like the plague for about 8 years, as I used to ride her in one and didn't think much of it, then got it in to my head that they wer not good for arabs, but it has been occurring to me that the shape of them might actually be what she needs. The 2000 ones are much nicer than the 500's though, if we are talking old style here!

I'm seriuosly considering a Wintec dressage version to give me the straighter cut for her shoulders - I've asked the saddler to fetch a couple with her tomorrow to check.

Only thing is I think she'll struggle with 16.5 or smaller 17" models, especially ones that are straighter cut... the saga continues!
 
Orchardbeck said:
Crazydancer - It's wierd, I've been avoiding Wintecs like the plague for about 8 years, as I used to ride her in one and didn't think much of it, then got it in to my head that they wer not good for arabs, but it has been occurring to me that the shape of them might actually be what she needs. The 2000 ones are much nicer than the 500's though, if we are talking old style here!

I'm seriuosly considering a Wintec dressage version to give me the straighter cut for her shoulders - I've asked the saddler to fetch a couple with her tomorrow to check.

Only thing is I think she'll struggle with 16.5 or smaller 17" models, especially ones that are straighter cut... the saga continues!
Click to expand...

Me too. Wintecs were just nowhere near his shape in the past.
Hope your saddler comes up with something. I was pretty pleased with mine, managed to pick up one on Ebay for £120!! :)
 
Well I had the fitter out last night, and everything she tried wedged up against her shoulders, because of the atrophy behind her withers. So she has taken my prolite wither pad away to cut the pads in to a contoured shape, and stitch them into place on the pad to fill these pockets to allow the muscle to develop underneath.

We tried the new wintec gpd in a 17" on her, it looked ridiculous, as did the dressage, they seemed too chunky and definitely too long. She had another little leather one but it was no better than the Ideal I have already, and she also tried the thorowgood pony club on her (new version) but thought the older version would have been better.

Anyway, having this pad will give us a chance of finding something, fingers crossed, so she's coming back when it's done to try again.
 
I just wanted to say that, having flocked a few saddles with an H&C tree that does NOT look like one! And the H&C really isn't suitable for a moderately high wither down to a flat back.

The best pad system for muscle wastage is the Mattes correction pads - the felt shims are much better than foam, and the top quality sheepskin absorbs shock really well and helps blood flow to restore that lost muscle. I would fit to her skeleton, not the muscle loss, and use shims to stop the front of the saddle collapsing into the hollows.
 
Thanks sbloom, I was hoping you'd pass your wise words! Do you know, I was surprised when Ideal said it was the apex, as their website states the 'apex is derived from the h&c tree, but with a more standard wither'.

However, they also have saddles that are 'in the style of our apex' so i'm not totally sure if it is just a design or a specific saddle- there doesn't seem to be a serial number on it so I can't get someone else to check. Anyway, I wouldn't say it is particularly wide and flat.

As I have the prolite pad already we are going to experiment but ultimately I would like to use a sheepskin and I think the mattes one would give me the best combination - I have a nuumed sheepskin too but I think the combo of that and the prolite will be too much for the gullet which will probably need to be widened again anyway (it's now a mw).

I bought Joyce Harmer's 'saddle fit and the pain free horse' book and it is very enlightening!
 
I am pretty sure they make the Apex on other trees. Also Ideals can be made to order on different trees, so even if a model is usually made on a certain tree, a used one MIGHT be on a different tree. You should ideally take the ID and contact the HQ if you need to know, otherwise when a fitter drops the rear panel most saddle makers write the tree type and size on the inside of the panel, though of course not always!
 
I've sent an email and pic to Ideal. Having looked at the website I wonder if it is the International Event.

It's a pain as the fitters have already dropped the panel for reflocking and when they widened the tree, but I didn't know to ask. But thanks again, we're aren't at the end of this journey!
 
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