Opinion of Yard Manager versus Owner

[Smogul]

When it is a question of welfare, someone always says YM has duty of care but what about when it is a matter of opinion?

Owner came to yard in spring. She had never owned a horse before, had read a lot and decied that natural horsemanship was the way for her. Horse was not to be shod, rugged or given hard feed. Unfortunately the horse, warmblood import, hasn't read the same books.

We had cold wet spring, cold wet summer, colder wetter autumn and now have freezing wet winter. The horse spent most of the spring and summer hunched up miserably in the shelter of the hedge or standing at the gate, calling. YM suggested putting on a rainsheet until horse acclimatised but owner said no. While she was on holiday, YM put rainsheet on and they couldn't catch the horse for three days as it was enjoying itself so much. She explained her "mistake" to the owner on return from holiday but owner was adamant about not rugging.

Turnout is now only a couple of hours per day as weather is bad and fields are a mess. The horse spends the two hours standing at the gate. When it is brought in, it is soaked and shivering. Yard staff have to dry it and usually put on a wicking rug (not its own as it doesn't have any rugs). Coat doesn't seem to be producing the sort of waterproofing that natives do. YM has suggested again that the horse might be happier given some sort of rainsheet but to no avail.

I don't want to get involved but YM has asked a couple of us if we would have a tactful word with the woman as it might seem less like interference. It isn't an absolute welfare issue as the horse is not losing weight at the minute but this is only because it is being given huge amounts of haylage when it is in.

What would you do?

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Personally if she were on my yard then as YO I'd give this woman marching orders TBH.

IF the RSPCA come visiting, it is the YO/YM and NOT the owner who will be deemed responsible for the welfare of the animal; and who will be prosecuted if the RSPCA decide there is a welfare issue.

She'd have been sent up the road a good while ago if she'd been at my place; we had one similar here who knew sweet FA about horses, but "thought" she knew all there was to know about natural horsemanship, so this sounds another clone of the same kind.

Not that I'm against NH, far from it, my trainer and I have both used some of the ideas from it (and rejected others); but stupidity like this has nothing to do with a good, sensible approach to horse management.

Would suggest that the YO/YM on your yard should tell her that unless she looks after her horse properly with immediate effect and/or lets the yard staff do so, then she is free to look for other livery forthwith. Give it to her in writing would be my suggestion.

 

[putasocinit]

Agree, emphasis she changes her ideas rather than horse be taken away just to suffer somewhere else, i know we cant save them all, but if we can then we should try. YO should tell her straight unless she rugs the horse she is calling the RSPCA, hopefully will get her in line regarding horse management.

 

[Jools1234]

horses shiver to raise their body temperature, the horse has not lost weight, its not a welfare issue surely?

if i had said i did not want something done to or with my horse and the YM did it anyway i would be fuming-what if the horse had got a leg caught in the rug and broken it?

the horse is not in pain/suffering, more damage is done by over rugging, the horse is onlygoing out for a couple of hours a day i would say that for me would be more of a welfare issue than wether it wears a rug

 

[Smogul]

the horse is not in pain/suffering, more damage is done by over rugging, the horse is onlygoing out for a couple of hours a day i would say that for me would be more of a welfare issue than wether it wears a rug

Not sure what the point of turning it out for longer would be when it already spends the whole time standing at the gate?

 

[Jools1234]

a horse waiting at the gate is usually waiting to come in to eat, or is following another sort of routine, mine never come in to a stable with food in it and they dont ever crowd/wait at the gate to come in.
there are exceptions to this as with everything with animals, in this case the main thing is that the horse does not belong to the YM and they should not interfere unless it is a welfare issue which this does not sound like

 

[Antw23uk]

If i was YO i would explain her idea of keeping a horse wasnt working and that if she wasnt willing to accept the idea at least that she was not doing her horse any favours then i would send ehr packing and warn all the yards in a 20 mile radius as well.

I cannot stand people who are so bloody minded and ignorant. We have a similar down our yard who uses 'natural horsemanship' on her horse .... it has no manners, gets away with EVERYTHING and yesterday put three people in danger when it was time to bring him and other horses in for the night. As far as im concerned that is not acceptable.

As a livery myself i would have a word with her and say you are worried about the horse and her and are happy to help with any questions.

 

[sally2008]

If I was the yard owner I would sit the owner down and explain that whilst there are many breeds that will happily cope with the regime she wishes to use, unfortunately warmbloods have had many of characteristics that would enable this purposefully bred out of them and hers is clearly not suited.

In short, she will need to make a choice - change the regime, change the horse to one that can cope or change yards - and would be given a date by which to comply or the horse would be managed in the way in which I, as a responsible yard manager with a duty of care, consider appropriate and she would be billed for the additional work involved.

Said conversation would be followed up by a recorded delivery letter detailing what she'd been told, dates and charges. Simples

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Yes, well put last two posters!!

Agree!

 

[ihatework]

It's a tricky one. If the horse is holding weight then it isn't a welfare case, the welfare charities have far more concerns than a wet shivery but otherwise well cared for horse.
The rugging of a horse by a YO directly against owners expressed wish, is also not on IMO, even though the justification is there. The owner has every right to be angry with YO.

That said there is a standard of care to be upheld and the YO obviously feels quite strongly about this. I think in YO's position I'd feel the same way and want the horse rugged. In their shoes I'd write the owner a letter, explaining concerns and offering an ultimatum - either the owner rugs the horse or they can consider the letter as 1 months notice.

 

[Smogul]

a horse waiting at the gate is usually waiting to come in to eat, or is following another sort of routine, mine never come in to a stable with food in it and they dont ever crowd/wait at the gate to come in.
there are exceptions to this as with everything with animals, in this case the main thing is that the horse does not belong to the YM and they should not interfere unless it is a welfare issue which this does not sound like

Personally can't decide if it is a welfare issue! Horse lost weight in summer as it was out for longer periods and wasn't grazing for a lot of that time. It doesn't use the current limited turnout time to socialise, play or graze which the others do. All the other unrugged horses have grown thick greasy coats which keep them dry and warm but this horse hasn't. YM feels it could have a better quality of life by the simple use of a rainsheet.

 

[Birker2020]

The RSPCA will not get involved. They haven't the time or resources to investigate every time an owner does something that other liveries don't think is appropriate. Yes the horse is cold, yes if it were my horse it would be rugged up according to weather conditions. Yes if my horse was stood by the gate but not running around he would be left out. Horses will often stand by the gate, as they know this is where they are brought out of the field. But most of the time they are dozing, not wanting despartley to be out of the cold! They are horses after all and designed to be out. Just because they are not eating doesn't mean they are miserable and want to come in. If they are going to stand in their stable and doze then they may as well stand in the fresh air and doze. The longer they are out in the fresh air the better, so long as they are warm and dry. But thats just my opinion, no doubt I will get shot down in flames for it.

My horse had to stop in today as the other liveries didn't want their horses out. No doubt my horse will be stiff as a board from standing in all day when I go later tonight. I will have a very wet and dirty bed from him standing in all day, and his legs will be the size of tree trunks. But I guess its okay because I wouldn't have liked him to get wet now would I??? :O

 

[Girlychu]

I have an elderly mare who likes to stand at a gate. No reason for it. She's not fed at any given time, isn't stabled etc. She just likes standing at the gate. All the horses in her field stay out - so no 'coming in time'. There is plenty of shelter and a hay ring but the gate is her fav place. She moves easily if I want in or out the gate.

Regarding the YM rugging the horse or the owners lack of rugging. A few years ago when my youngster was a baby the YO decided to put a rug on him without my permission. It was raining and all the other youngsters were rugged up except mine. When I arrived he was standing looking miserable under a tree. They had put the rug on while he was wet from the rain which IMHO is the worst thing to do. YO felt sorry for him. I understood that she thought she was trying to help but I asked her not to do it again. Say my boy had tanked off and got tangled up in the rug, had an accident etc.....whole other issue.

Even though YM or other liveries are not happy with the way the lady is keeping her horse it is her horse. If there is a welfare issue then a relevant organisation could be contacted to have a word with her or if I was a livery I would have a friendly chat about the weather and how cold and wet its going to be.

 

[NativePonyLover]

Personally, I would stay out of it - if the yard manager feel so strongly there is an issue, it is for her to resolve however she see's best. IMHO, trying to get other liveries involved is so un professional - and one of my biggest bug bears.

I would be fuming if the YM had done something (e.g. rug) to my horse which went my express permission - in fact, I probably would have left the yard then!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

All YO needs to do is to tell owner that in YO's opinion, the horse is not being kept the way the YO prefers.
YO then needs to explain how she prefers horses to be kept/managed in YO's yard and ask owner if she will comply, and if not - to make other arrangements to move elsewhere.
Perhaps YO needs to state their preference to all potential liveries for how horses are to be managed on her yard with a view to turnout time and also rugging - when is appropriate and not - to suit the YO's preferences.

I'd not be happy with something standing around like that for hours in this kind of weather, but the only interfereing I'd be doing would be exactly as said in my 1st sentance. As said above by another, I'd be pretty pished off as a livery to be asked to approach the owner of horse!

As an owner, I'd be also pretty cross to find that someone had interfered by putting a rug on if the horse genuinely did not need one - had this done to one of mine by a well-meaning person when I was away inspite of instructions to the contrary and this cost a pretty sum in vet bills as water was trapped under rug, horse caught a chill & was very unwell. I got back the next day & had to get vet out immediately!

This is not a welfare case, just a clash of equine management policies.

 

[martlin]

OP, what sort of livery package is the horse on?
I'm asking, because if part/full with forage/feed included, it obviously is a bit more than just difference of opinion - it's costing the YM money.
As a YO I've been there, with a horse freezing its wotsits off, because the heavier rug wasn't pretty enough colour..., I just kept shoving more and more feed at the poor creature and eventually asked the livery to leave.

 

[Puzzles]

It is difficult to judge whether it's a 'welfare issue' unless you see & experience it day in and day out, I think, as the OP has. Whilst I don't think this is an RSPCA issue, I think it's a case of ignorance. If the horse is cold then it is suffering. No horse should ever be allowed to get cold enough to shiver uncontrollably when they come in. The TBx that I look after does this if left out in even mild rain without a rug, even in mild weather.
I think that welfare is priority over social expectations and minding one's own business!

 

[criso]

Tricky one without actually seeing the horse and if it's not dropping weight sounds like it's coping.

It's not as simple as "it's a warmblood, it needs a rug" , I've got a tb that hates being overugged and was furious when I came up to one yard to find someone had rugged him, kindly lending me one of their rugs because he was tb and shouldn't be unrugged.

I got there to a miserable, hot, grumpy horse. He was sweating underneath and that was only a fleece.

I don't really understand the rugging will acclimatise theory because rugging will just acclimatise them to wearing rugs and will then miss it when they don't have them.

However there is probably an argument for a rainsheet on rainy days only if there is not shelter in the field, you could argue from a natural point of view that horses can travel to find a sheltered spot but some turnout paddocks with no natural or artificial shelter leave them very exposed.

 

[Goldenstar]

The management needs to be apporiate for the horse and if I where YO I would allow this situation to continue .
I would either serve notice or I would try to enlist the help of my vet who might be of help in showing the owner that this is not suiting this horse .

 

[Antw23uk]

The RSPCA will not get involved. They haven't the time or resources to investigate every time an owner does something that other liveries don't think is appropriate. Yes the horse is cold, yes if it were my horse it would be rugged up according to weather conditions. Yes if my horse was stood by the gate but not running around he would be left out. Horses will often stand by the gate, as they know this is where they are brought out of the field. But most of the time they are dozing, not wanting despartley to be out of the cold! They are horses after all and designed to be out. Just because they are not eating doesn't mean they are miserable and want to come in. If they are going to stand in their stable and doze then they may as well stand in the fresh air and doze. The longer they are out in the fresh air the better, so long as they are warm and dry. But thats just my opinion, no doubt I will get shot down in flames for it.

My horse had to stop in today as the other liveries didn't want their horses out. No doubt my horse will be stiff as a board from standing in all day when I go later tonight. I will have a very wet and dirty bed from him standing in all day, and his legs will be the size of tree trunks. But I guess its okay because I wouldn't have liked him to get wet now would I??? :O

I had the same issue yesterday because it was forecast rain!!!! I made it very clear I didnt want my mare brought in unless it was so torrential it felt like the end of the world Needless to say I brought her in about 1730, she was happily munching away at the back of the field on her own. Hosed her feet, fussed and groomed her and then gave her dinner and two bulging haynets for the night ..... All the others looked bored, stiff and pretty much all had empty haynets by 1800

 

[Smogul]

OP, what sort of livery package is the horse on?
I'm asking, because if part/full with forage/feed included, it obviously is a bit more than just difference of opinion - it's costing the YM money.
As a YO I've been there, with a horse freezing its wotsits off, because the heavier rug wasn't pretty enough colour..., I just kept shoving more and more feed at the poor creature and eventually asked the livery to leave.

Horse is on full, everything except supplements included so yes, it is costing a fortune in haylage! To be fair to YM, that isn't the main issue. She is responsible for horse and its wellbeing. She and owner have genuine difference of opinion but she is the one who sees the horse day in, day out.
I don't think that anyone would think it was appropriate to get SSPCA involved as it is more an education issue, surely?

A couple of other liveries were asked (in confidence) if there was anything we could do to help as we are friendly with the other woman, tend to be up at similar times, and YM thought we might manage to explain that different horses have different needs.

 

[Leg_end]

A couple of other liveries were asked (in confidence) if there was anything we could do to help as we are friendly with the other woman, tend to be up at similar times, and YM thought we might manage to explain that different horses have different needs.

IMO this is totally unprofessional. If YO has an issue then they need to speak to the owner, not go around moaning to the other liveries, and devise a strategy appropriately. If the horse isn't losing weight and is coping then it isn't a welfare issue and is just a different style of management. There will always be people who manage their horses differently, we have one at our yard that never picks feet, grooms etc and although its not the way I do it, and I feel sorry for the horse, it's not a welfare issue...

If I was YO and it was a major issue I would possibly say that the horse is eating far more hard feed and hay as it is unrugged so the owner will be charged x amount more. If not, they can rug and charges remain the same. If neither options are satisfactory, they leave...

 

[Honey08]

horses shiver to raise their body temperature, the horse has not lost weight, its not a welfare issue surely?

if i had said i did not want something done to or with my horse and the YM did it anyway i would be fuming-what if the horse had got a leg caught in the rug and broken it?

the horse is not in pain/suffering, more damage is done by over rugging, the horse is onlygoing out for a couple of hours a day i would say that for me would be more of a welfare issue than wether it wears a rug

I agree with this.

Not sure what the point of turning it out for longer would be when it already spends the whole time standing at the gate?

I don't think she was suggesting it should be out more, just pointing out that, even if it is cold, it is not out that long anyway..

This is not a welfare case, just a clash of equine management policies.

I agree with this too. The YO sounds terrrible, asking other liveries to basically side with her and "nag" a livery who doesn't agree with her! And a rain sheet is probably the worst thing to put on a cold horse anyway. If she really feels she is responsible for the horse, and it is that bad, she should either give the livery notice (and tell her why) or report her.

And if you were asked in confidence, posting it on a public forum may not be the way forward??