Opinion please: saddle length on youngster

Update: found a helpful saddler today and sat in a few 15" and 16" saddles to see how they felt. I was quite amazed that my bottom was adequately accommodated in the 15" seat. I tried a variety of saddles and borrowed a couple that I found comfortable and which were the appropriate width to try on Raff.

So here is the 16" saddle in-situ. Awful. Looked majorly out of proportion on Raff; far too short in the flap length and sat perched on him. I had to dig out a 48" girth just to reach the girth straps each side cos the saddle was so high up. A no brainer that I wouldn't chose this saddle for him but it DOES demonstrate what a 16" saddle looks like along his short coupled topline. Here it is:




Here is the second saddle, a 15" saddle:




Although this is a smaller seated saddle than saddle number 1, in my opinion it looks a lot better on Raff and seemed to fit better all round. My only slight concern was the cantle being lower than the pommel.

Opinions?
 
I'd say the cantle is lower than the pomel as it is too far forwards - this seems to be the same with all the pictures. You need to place the saddle further back than you are to prevent it interfering with the shoulder. If the saddle is pulled forwards because of the gut shape, and the girth sliding into what is misnames as the girth groove, you can get curved girths to prevent this.

If you slide the saddle backwards slightly it will stop resting on the shoulders and should drop.

ETA images

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Some greys to show the position more clearly - all have the saddle well clear of the shoulder and the girth further back.

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Ignore the rest of the picture - I was illustrating saddle position not rider or horse head position ;)
 
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EQUIDAE said:
I'd say the cantle is lower than the pomel as it is too far forwards - this seems to be the same with all the pictures. You need to place the saddle further back than you are to prevent it interfering with the shoulder. If the saddle is pulled forwards because of the gut shape, and the girth sliding into what is misnames as the girth groove, you can get curved girths to prevent this.

If you slide the saddle backwards slightly it will stop resting on the shoulders and should drop.
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Mmmm.... Afraid I disagree with the saddles being too far forward. Any further back and it will be off his wither area completely. The saddle is placed forward on the wither when he's being saddled up and is then slid back into the correct position until it settles solidly and securely on his back before being girthed up (You know what I'm trying to describe if you saddle up correctly.)
 
Spyda said:
Afraid I disagree with the saddles being too far forward. Any further back and it will be off his wither area completely.
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With a big shouldered horse sometimes this is necessary. The saddle will never sit correctly if it is sat on top of the shoulder muscle. The saddle should never be placed directly over the wither anyway. The saddle does need to be slid backwards after being placed over the wither, but it will stop when it has passed the shoulder muscle - the saddles in the pictures the OP provided are still slightly over the shoulder which as well as making the pommels sit much higher than the cantle, also restricts the horse.

ETA - if the saddle is placed too far up the wither you will get wither pocket loss in the muscle behind it, due to the pressure of the saddle.

like this

sh%20l.jpg
 
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A saddle shouldn't sit on a horse's wither. It should be in the dip behind the wither. Sure, you should place the saddle further forward and then slide it back to ensure you don't ruffle the hair but not leave it forward and girth up.
 
Here are some pics of the little man naked to show his conformation. Do you all reckon I shoule be settling the saddle further back than I am? That said, if I do then the first two saddles I tried yesterday (the 17" and 16.5") will certainly be too long for him.





 
9tails said:
A saddle shouldn't sit on a horse's wither. It should be in the dip behind the wither. Sure, you should place the saddle further forward and then slide it back to ensure you don't ruffle the hair but not leave it forward and girth up.
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Sorry if I've mislead. Yes, that's what I am doing. The saddles are not placed on his wither to be secured and ridden in; only when being lifted up onto his back so that when the saddle is slid back off his wither into the correct position, the hair beneath is lying flat and comfortable.

Looking at Raffy objectively, I can envisage that if I slide the saddle a little further back then the girth is going to sit rather far back from his 'girth grove'.
 
The first picture of the 15" saddle with the cloth underneath is better placed than the others. With his shoulders, which are substantial, look at working hunter or VSD.
 
Spyda said:
Looking at Raffy objectively, I can envisage that if I slide the saddle a little further back then the girth is going to sit rather far back from his 'girth grove'.
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This is why shaped girths are available. The girth groove shouldn't dictate where a saddle sits.
 
EQUIDAE said:
With a big shouldered horse sometimes this is necessary. The saddle will never sit correctly if it is sat on top of the shoulder muscle. The saddle should never be placed directly over the wither anyway. The saddle does need to be slid backwards after being placed over the wither, but it will stop when it has passed the shoulder muscle - the saddles in the pictures the OP provided are still slightly over the shoulder which as well as making the pommels sit much higher than the cantle, also restricts the horse.

ETA - if the saddle is placed too far up the wither you will get wither pocket loss in the muscle behind it, due to the pressure of the saddle.

like this

sh%20l.jpg
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I agree with this EQUIDAE. And just how many horses do you see with exactly that inbibited definition behind the wither because of an ill fittting saddle. I see far too many :(

I must admit Raffy is my first non blood horse, so his conformation is different to that which I am used to dealing with. I'll pop the 16" saddle up to the yard tomorrow morning and try positioning it further back than I am used to and see how that looks and how the girth will lay. Like you suggest, Raffy may just need to have a saddle set so it frees up his defined shoulder.
 
9tails said:
This is why shaped girths are available. The girth groove shouldn't dictate where a saddle sits.
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Exactly this :)

If you place the saddle where the 'groove' dictates, the saddle will always be too far forwards. Only an overweight/unfit horse (sorry) will have a 'girth groove', a fit horse will be flat or sloping upwards - hence why breast plates are needed to stop the saddle slipping backwards on a toned horse.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Spyda - it is fantastic that you care so much. Too many people think ' that looks alright' or 'It's close enough'
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Thank you. I dont normally have such a struggle saddling up! But Raffy is so short coupled and has such different conformation from my WB, TB and Anglos that it's proving to be rather a challenge. And I am quite keen that his first experience under saddle is as comfortable as possible. I think that's the least I can offer him as an introduction to his ridden career. :)

And a massive thanks for your help, photos and suggestions tonight. xx
 
Spyda said:
Thank you. I dont normally have such a struggle saddling up! But Raffy is so short coupled and has such different conformation from my WB, TB and Anglos that it's proving to be rather a challenge. And I am quite keen that his first experience under saddle is as comfortable as possible. I think that's the least I can offer him as an introduction to his ridden career. :)

And a massive thanks for your help, photos and suggestions tonight. xx
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I've been there with awkward youngsters - it's a wonderful experience though isn't it?
 
I haven't read all the replies, but you could look at Balance International. Their saddles are fantastic - designed for maximum horse comfort - and their Felix model can be made with slightly shorter panels in comparison to the seat. The panels are foam and many horses seem to really like the feel of them.
 
Horses do not have to be obese to have forward girth grooves, most natives and cobs, and many crosses, will have forward girth grooves. A correctly flat tree, set back, usually with a point strap, will keep the saddle back and the girth correctly in the girth groove. If a horse does get overweight then the situation will worse, that much is true.

I do think the showing saddle is a little forwards, it doesn't need to go back much. An upswept panel design would give you a better shape for his back and a shorter footprint.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Exactly this :)

If you place the saddle where the 'groove' dictates, the saddle will always be too far forwards. Only an overweight/unfit horse (sorry) will have a 'girth groove', a fit horse will be flat or sloping upwards - hence why breast plates are needed to stop the saddle slipping backwards on a toned horse.
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This is absolute rubbish! Mine is a very fit, not at all over weight and is well toned and still maintains a forward girth groove which pulls every saddle forward, with or without an anatomical girth and unfortunately this will not change, YES it could be worse if she was overweight but it will not change her conformation!
 
EQUIDAE said:
Exactly this :)

If you place the saddle where the 'groove' dictates, the saddle will always be too far forwards. Only an overweight/unfit horse (sorry) will have a 'girth groove', a fit horse will be flat or sloping upwards - hence why breast plates are needed to stop the saddle slipping backwards on a toned horse.
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Rubbish, the reason most people use a breast plate is because they have so many numnahs, pads saddle blankets under their saddle it can't stay in place without one.

I don't even own one, numnah or breastplate. Managed to hunt, event and Showjump without one,

Not all horses have a clear defined girth groove, fit or unfit, slim or fat. Place the saddle to prevent restriction of the shoulder when the leg is extended, secure the saddle sufficiently to keep it in place and allow it to settle where it's comfortable.
 
Photos can be deceptive. Ester is experienced enough to know the difference between a fit horse and a podgy one, plus she was able to get her hands on the horse (which none of us can do) and that is, IME the only way to accurately weight score a horse that is within the 'good' range. Obviously properly underweight or overweight can be seen in photos.
 
Thanks Faracat, he never photos slim which is why I would never put them up on here and ask for a condition score :eek: But I know where his ribcage is ;). It is wide and he is square so he always looks like he has a bit of a pot belly when he hasn't

That was mid hunt season some years ago, he wasn't podgy any lighter and you see ribs while standing.

I have just been sad enough to go and take a pic of him today! You can actually see the outline of his ribs stood. It does make me spot a few of his getting old differences though. Ive always been aware of his weight after how he arrived (bottom pic) and his bottom is always the first thing to go ;)

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another old non podgy pic
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This is him podgy
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and obese
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And you will note that his girth groove doesn't move in any of them!

Mum's PBA is worse, she has the arab rib cage but no shoulder :p.
 
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Oh wow, he really was a fatty. He looks like a different horse now. :)

I really became aware of how photos can look different to real life when my chestnut mare lost condition due to her getting very stressed. I was very concerned by her weight loss and she was seen by the vet due to it. It was sorted and she returned to a healthy weight. However photos taken of her at that time, do not make her look as thin as she was.
 
fornema said:
This is absolute rubbish! Mine is a very fit, not at all over weight and is well toned and still maintains a forward girth groove which pulls every saddle forward, with or without an anatomical girth and unfortunately this will not change, YES it could be worse if she was overweight but it will not change her conformation!
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Forgive me for saying, because I entirely agree with your assessment of that kind of conformation, but the right saddle will not run forwards. Even without a curved girth (can't remember an occasion on which I've recommended one).
 
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