Opinions...is being young an excuse for bad behaviour?

a kind of magic

a kind of magic

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I am interested to hear people's views. We were out today with our two mares, one is 4 and just being started from scratch (first ride out) and my mare is 7 and is being restarted after two years off.

We came to an area with a grassy patch to the side and a horse was bucking, rearing, plunging and generally trying to get it's rider off. She must have had a velcro bum and it was very well sat! We hung back well out of the way, waiting for her horse to settle down. Eventually it was safe to walk past so we did so-as we walked by she apologised for her horse's behaviour (I congratulated her at her excellent sticky bum!) and said he as just spooking at everything because he is young. We didn't mention that it was our youngest one's first ride!

It really got me thinking though - I completely understand that young horses push boundaries and need to make mistakes in order to learn that it's wrong; at what point does it become acceptable behaviour though? We had an excellent ride, both girls were quiet and calm despite said out of control naughty horse! We also met a horse and carriage, two tractors, motorbikes and lots of other potential scary things which were all met with a lovely calm demeanor. :)
 
All horses have different temperaments - some will easily comply when young, others will need to make mistakes in order to learn & its all about how those first mistakes are handled.
 
I don't know about an excuse,but I think *can* be a perfectly good reason for worried and anxious behaviour yes.

It can vary hugely with breed,type and education IME.

I have had youngsters that were drama queens and over reacted to just about everything at first,and I have had laid back ones that took everything in their stride.

It depends on the circumstances,but I wouldn't really call worry or anxiety towards new things 'bad behaviour',I would call it their natural instincts over taking their training,which can happen with either naturally inclined to be flighty types or ones that have gaps in their education.

Obviously age isn't always a valid reason/excuse for 'bad behaviour',but I think it can be certainly.
 
I think as said, all horses are different and mature differently and also a lot depends on their life experiences and how they have been handled to start with.

Some do seem to take it in their stride, others struggle. I don't see it as them testing people as such but they get confused and can only deal with it the way they know how.

An example is my 3yo. He's big (16.2hh nearly) and becaue he's still growing there's a lot of body and legs for him to balance! I am working on asking him to move forward off the leg, stop and turn. He isn't bothered about me being sat on his back at all but he evidently finds all these instructions confusing at the moment and although he seems to be able to manage it for a few seconds/strides he will then decide he doesn't understand/find it hard so we get some reversing and head tossing (he has always done this head tossing whenever he gets confused/unbalanced etc). You have to work with that horse in line with what they can cope with. I am guessing today that horse came across something he didn't like or didn't understand and didn't have the confidence to deal with it. That is why there is no use punishing a horse when it does this, you need to understand what they are thinking.

Some youngsters seems easy, others don't. It's just how it goes I guess.
 
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maresmaid said:
All horses have different temperaments - some will easily comply when young, others will need to make mistakes in order to learn & its all about how those first mistakes are handled.
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This absolutely ^^^ I've raised so many youngsters and even if they are the most delightful, well behaved creatures as foals/yearlings once they start to mature and you finally bring them into ridden work some that were so easy in-hand may not be so easy-going under saddle. They aren't robots and they each deal with situations individually. Most of mine when put under saddle are great and they just take it in their stride but occasionally there are the ones who feel the need to have a bit of a buckaroo in the early days. Some breeds tend to be easier than others. Genetics plays a part obviously. Youngsters from some of my mares are always very easy to start and then other mares typically have youngsters who like to push your buttons. Both types have their own merits and make for individual horses which is fine as the multitude of riders out there want different things out of horses :)

Edited to add. I also would not class this as 'bad' behaviour. It's just a youngster being a youngster.
 
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No it's not an excuse, but you can only deal with what the horse gives you - sometimes even if you do everything right a horse can be a complete pleb and you just have to ride them through it.

Sometimes giving them a wallop will help, but if a horse has massively wound itself up then coming down on them hard isn't the answer and you have to take a gentler approach.
 
FfionWinnie said:
No it's not at all. To me it shows a massive gap in that horses education compared to yours which has been done right. :)
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I think that's a bit blinkered - I mean, from the sound of it, the OP's 4 y/old had a buddy while the "misbehaving" horse was out solo - which could easily explain the differing standards of behaviour on this one occasion.

I don't think for a second youth is an "excuse" for bad behaviour, but sometimes it is a reason for it - a lack of experience or a lack of confidence can account for a lot. Ultimately, horses react differently, and a highly strung, fit TB may well react differently to the same situation from an overweight cob (not that the OP's horse is necessarily a cob, or that cobs are necessarily placid :D ).

As for behaviour not being "acceptable", well bucking and plunging isn't acceptable, but I'm not sure what the OP expected the rider to do other than ride through it and persist - and hopefully "win". I guess it's either that or give up on it :confused:
 
JFTD said:
I think that's a bit blinkered - I mean, from the sound of it, the OP's 4 y/old had a buddy while the "misbehaving" horse was out solo - which could easily explain the differing standards of behaviour on this one occasion.

I don't think for a second youth is an "excuse" for bad behaviour, but sometimes it is a reason for it - a lack of experience or a lack of confidence can account for a lot. Ultimately, horses react differently, and a highly strung, fit TB may well react differently to the same situation from an overweight cob (not that the OP's horse is necessarily a cob, or that cobs are necessarily placid :D ).

As for behaviour not being "acceptable", well bucking and plunging isn't acceptable, but I'm not sure what the OP expected the rider to do other than ride through it and persist - and hopefully "win". I guess it's either that or give up on it :confused:
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Yes so the naughty horse wasn't ready to be out on its own. That was my point. Gap in the education caused the battle. Easier to work through every possible scenario before you are out on your own having a battle in my opinion.

I used to back difficult horses for fun, none of my youngsters would have been in that situation.

Different with an older problem horse, you might need to ride through that if it's been getting its own way for years.
 
JFTD said:
I think that's a bit blinkered
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Agreed. I think a lot of people have a lack of experience with bringing on lots of different types/breeds of youngsters so they have a rose tinted view that as long as you dot all the i s and cross all the t s that every youngster should be super duper. The reality often isn't quite as cut and dried, raising many youngsters teaches us that as lovely as it would be if they were all dobbins, that view isn't realistic :)
 
I don't understand how you can guarentee never pushing your horse a little out of its comfort zone, sorry. I think it's blinkered to think that every horse is so predictable and straightforward as to not react in an unexpected manner when faced with a new situation (and however well you prepare in company, being alone is different for some horses). Some horses can react dramatically to relatively small changes in what you ask of them.

FWIW none of mine have ever reacted to any situation in such a fashion either, but I accept that it might happen, no matter how well I prepare my horses.


SF, I couldn't agree more.
 
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FfionWinnie said:
Yes so the naughty horse wasn't ready to be out on its own. That was my point. Gap in the education caused the battle. Easier to work through every possible scenario before you are out on your own having a battle in my opinion.

I used to back difficult horses for fun, none of my youngsters would have been in that situation.

Different with an older problem horse, you might need to ride through that if it's been getting its own way for years.
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I disagree. My 5yr old is safe as houses with another horse on a hack and most of the time is ok on his own, but he does have off days. He is a very large, highly strung warmblood and though it may not be an excuse for naughtiness it is still all a huge learning curve for them. But I HAVE to take him out on his own to get him used to it - how else will he learn?
 
Spring Feather said:
Agreed. I think a lot of people have a lack of experience with bringing on lots of different types/breeds of youngsters so they have a rose tinted view that as long as you dot all the i s and cross all the t s that every youngster should be super duper. The reality often isn't quite as cut and dried, raising many youngsters teaches us that as lovely as it would be if they were all dobbins, that view isn't realistic :)
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Don't think I said they are all super duper just that you do the preparatory work til it's set in stone. I don't think I have a lack of experience in lots of different youngsters either, one job I used to ride race horses out for an owner, he bred them himself and if they weren't suitable for the track I broke them for sale. They were all sorts of TBs from 15hh plods to 17hh nutters. My whole life I've ridden the dangerous ones no one else wanted to deal with and I learned from doing that there are a lot of battles you can pick to fight in a safer environment than out on a hack.

JFTD said:
I don't understand how you can guarentee never pushing your horse a little out of its comfort zone, sorry. I think it's blinkered to think that every horse is so predictable and straightforward as to not react in an unexpected manner when faced with a new situation (and however well you prepare in company, being alone is different for some horses). Some horses can react dramatically to relatively small changes in what you ask of them.

FWIW none of mine have ever reacted to any situation in such a fashion either, but I accept that it might happen, no matter how well I prepare my horses.


SF, I couldn't agree more - and I only do native ponies so very blinkered! (though I did used to play with "real" horses)
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Ok I'm blinkered I get it :rolleyes: I never said don't push them out their comfort zone, indeed I spend a lot of time doing exactly that encouraging them to make a mistake so I can correct it. However I don't hack a horse out on its own and then have a bucking bronco to deal with.

Yes it's a snap shot in time, maybe that horse never did it before and never did it again but the rider told the op the horse was spooking because it was young.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Yes so the naughty horse wasn't ready to be out on its own. That was my point. Gap in the education caused the battle.
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Eek no, I wish it was that simple. I own loads of different breeds of horses and they're all raised the same from little to being started under saddle. I have backed goodness knows how many of my quarter horses and not one has been the slightest challenge. Quarter horses are pretty much 'born' mature lol :) The TBs on the other hand, some are lovely and quiet and do your bidding without fault, others are like runaway rollercoasters :D And then there's the Hanoverians and the Oldenburgs, well with them I find they run more true to form as it depends very much who their mothers are as they seem to have a far greater influence on the demeanor and natural temperament of their youngstock.

OP what breed is your youngster? And what breed do you think the other one was? Just out of interest :)
 
I keep trying to reply but my stupid phone is not playing ball! Yes our mares were out together but it was the younger one's first ride out. She is long lining by herself though. Neither of them are dobbins or fat cobs (wish they were lol) but we tried to educate them accordingly to give them the confidence and manners out and about. My mare is a tizzy thing so I do understand, we have brought on a few youngsters, one of which would literally mess himself with nerves when we started.

The rider did nothing wrong, it was well ridden and sat, an impressive bit of riding. We did all we could to help by just staying out the way while she settled him down. She did have someone on foot who just said he was like that all the time! If that is the case then surely there is a gap in the education?
 
Spring Feather said:
Eek no, I wish it was that simple. I own loads of different breeds of horses and they're all raised the same from little to being started under saddle. I have backed goodness knows how many of my quarter horses and not one has been the slightest challenge. Quarter horses are pretty much 'born' mature lol :) The TBs on the other hand, some are lovely and quiet and do your bidding without fault, others are like runaway rollercoasters :D And then there's the Hanoverians and the Oldenburgs, well with them I find they run more true to form as it depends very much who their mothers are as they seem to have a far greater influence on the demeanor and natural temperament of their youngstock.

OP what breed is your youngster? And what breed do you think the other one was? Just out of interest :)
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I am allowed to have a different opinion and life experience than you. :)

Funnily enough my new paint horse (mother is QH) is a totally spoilt brat and having to learn a lot of new things I feel should already have been covered by the time she was rising 5!
 
Sorry SF, missed your post. Our mares are Quarter Horses, bred for games and reining so they are sharp. Other horse at a guess looked like a small sports horse type...about 15hh or so. :)
 
FfionWinnie said:
Ok I'm blinkered I get it :rolleyes: I never said don't push them out their comfort zone, indeed I spend a lot of time doing exactly that encouraging them to make a mistake so I can correct it. However I don't hack a horse out on its own and then have a bucking bronco to deal with.

Yes it's a snap shot in time, maybe that horse never did it before and never did it again but the rider told the op the horse was spooking because it was young.
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I simply don't agree - I think that by the very practice of asking for something out with your horse's comfort zone is enough to land you with a bucking bronco with some horses, in some situations. The fact that it has never happened to me yet I put down to my good fortune. You clearly see things differently.

I think that people say things when they're stressed / distracted. I told someone my horse was acting like a pleb (just spooking slightly) because he's young and stupid. He's neither, especially, but he was acting like a pleb and it's a relatively acceptable thing to say (calling him an expletive would have been my choice, but also somewhat rude).

Saying "he's young" by means of explanation doesn't mean she was saying "oh he does this all the time because he's young", or "I find this totally acceptable and normal behaviour because he's young".
 
I don't think it's to do with gaps in education, or the way horses are handled.

My 5 year was only backed this year and hacks out beautifully on his own, he have the odd spook now and again, and some reluctance if we're coming across something new, so he is mostly well behaved, however he is young, and will sometimes buck, and gets impatient and agitated when I ask him to stand. There is no other way to deal with it, only to stay on and let him know, the quicker he stands nicely and quietly, the quicker we'll start walking again. I'd hate it if someone thought I'd missed steps out of his education, I haven't, but he gets excited, and for now I can cope with that.

Some youngsters react differently to others, some take it all in their stride, and others don't.
 
a kind of magic said:
She did have someone on foot who just said he was like that all the time! If that is the case then surely there is a gap in the education?
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In that case, either it's a badly managed or schooled horse, or a totally neurotic one - though if she's happy to ride it and capable of doing so, I guess that's her choice. That does somewhat change the context of the debate. And no, age is not an excuse to behave like that routinely.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I am allowed to have a different opinion and life experience than you. :)

Funnily enough my new paint horse (mother is QH) is a totally spoilt brat and having to learn a lot of new things I feel should already have been covered by the time she was rising 5!
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Your new paint has very sharp AQHAs in her pedigree though. Both Doc Olena and Mr Gunsmoke lines are very well known for their sharpness. I have a couple with both those lines and yes they're sharp but very intelligent and want to learn, learn, learn all the time! They also love to please their rider so keep them occupied, keep them learning and once you've got it together with them, you really do have a match made in heaven :)

However having said that, quarter horses, even the sharp ones, definitely don't compare to TBs in my opinion. TBs are far more volatile. AQHAs are incredibly consistent so are far far easier to deal with. We mustn't underestimate how much the breed plays a part.
 
Being young is not an excuse but all the horses we have had have gone out on first hacks quite happily, but thats probably because we expect the same good manners from youngsters as the older horses. My eldest started to hack her youngster last year and he went out happily on his own with no problem. All our young horses do, go out with no problems, but we do spend time taking them for walks in hand and bombproofing them.
 
a kind of magic said:
Sorry SF, missed your post. Our mares are Quarter Horses, bred for games and reining so they are sharp. Other horse at a guess looked like a small sports horse type...about 15hh or so. :)
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Quarters are great little horses :) What pedigrees?

So the difference may be, your horses have been developed over years and years of consistent breeding to produce what you have. The sport horse type possibly did not have such care given to its breeding.
 
Just wondering what your thoughts on arabs are SF?

The lady who backed my grey is used to TB's (this was her first pure arab) and she was very impressed with the grey and quite surprised how quick to learn, easy and willing she was.

I know that her sire was like that too.
 
JFTD said:
I simply don't agree - I think that by the very practice of asking for something out with your horse's comfort zone is enough to land you with a bucking bronco with some horses, in some situations. The fact that it has never happened to me yet I put down to my good fortune. You clearly see things differently.

".
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Maybe it's your good horsewomanship ;)
 
Interesting, my 'young' horse is not perfect. He probably does have gaps in his education as I am not surrounded by knowledgable people with fantastic companion horses. I have had to work out how to bring on a young horse, and have made plenty of mistakes in doing so. He still at 7 has a side to his personality that makes him lose the plot sometimes. I can try to make up plenty of excuses for his behaviour, but in essence half of it is that I am not the perfect owner with perfect situation, and half of it is just that his brain seems to be wired funny. I often wonder if he'd be better if someone else had backed him, but what's done is done and I do think he's just a tiny bit mental. Not sure that's what this post is about, but I've spent all day wondering if I'm ruining him, all because I haven't entirely got rid of his mad moments.
 
Spring Feather said:
Your new paint has very sharp AQHAs in her pedigree though. Both Doc Olena and Mr Gunsmoke lines are very well known for their sharpness. I have a couple with both those lines and yes they're sharp but very intelligent and want to learn, learn, learn all the time! They also love to please their rider so keep them occupied, keep them learning and once you've got it together with them, you really do have a match made in heaven :)

However having said that, quarter horses, even the sharp ones, definitely don't compare to TBs in my opinion. TBs are far more volatile. AQHAs are incredibly consistent so are far far easier to deal with. We mustn't underestimate how much the breed plays a part.
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You could say the propensity to take advantage is due to the pedigree but I would say the speed she is learning that she cannot beat me, shows it's a gap in her education. I like her, she's fun and she learns fast but if she'd been mine from a foal I wouldn't be needing to do these things now because it would never have developed. With a different natured horse you might not have to do the extra work and still end up with the same thing at the end.
 
I've only ever owned a handful of arabs in my lifetime to be honest Faracat and all of them were pretty easy to start. They were sensible sorts, although I did find in the early days of being ridden they would push as far as they thought they could but once they found the limit they were happy to work in union. I used to ride arab stallions for a stud half a lifetime ago and they were fantastic. But then I've had friends who have had arabs and they seemed to have no ends of problems with them so I wonder again if it is the different strains of Arab blood which makes a difference? What strain are yours Faracat?
 
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