opinions on breaking the membrane

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amy_b

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everybody seems to have differing opinions on when to break the membrane during foaling, as an amateur its sort of a dilemma that there doesnt seem to be adament advice (ie as soon as you see the head, or if the foal is stuck at the shoulders for a while for example)
so thought I would get everybodys opinions on the subject as there are so many seasoned foalers on here!! :D
 
Hi , a friend of mine brought a mare last year whom unexpectantly turned out to be in foal. My friend did not want to intervene when the mare had her foal and as a result unfortunatley the membrane didnt break and the foal consequently died. The vet said, had the membrane been broken the foal would have lived and been perfectly healthy. I think its a touchy subject with lots of different views but personally having spoken to the vet, i would say if it is a hard or long labour and the mare was taking along time to get beyond the shoulders out, i would break it for the sake of the foals life....
 
My YO broke Paris's membrane although i dont think it was necessary as she was born very quickly with no problems. However YO had a foal born 2 years ago that was still born and she was very worried about the foaling especially as i wasnt there at the time (was on my way to the yard!)
 
If the umbilicus is still attached to the mother and hasn't been crushed or twisted while the foal is being delivered then there isn't any need to break the amnion until the foal's chest is out. Normally the foals legs will break it at some point during birth. For a foal to die stuck inside the amnion I would assume that it was a stillborn foal because even if you don't intervene in a birth, the foal, once mostly out, will kick and struggle and that's what usually breaks it. I've seen what appeared to be stillborn foals and CPR and mouth to nose enough times jump started the foals and all ended up well after a lot of work and trying. But that does not happen all the time, it totally depends on the presentation and how long the foal has been stuck in the birth canal or had a twisted/restricted umbilical cord as to whether there is hope or not.
 
To add further, once the foal comes out in an unassisted birth, if the kicking doesn't break the amnion then the foaling assistant WILL see the foal trying to breathe as the amnion is sucked towards the foal. If you don't see that then you'd have to assume that the foal may be stillborn. To be frank though, I don't know any serious breeder who truly does non-assisted foalings, at some point we generally get involved, even if only to ensure respiration.
 
we had this sort of thing happen last year...it was something to do with him being born with everything including the afterbirth all at once so even though he was on the floor he was technically still snoozing thanks to his umbilical cord. all the while me and my mum are panicking (one outwardly, frantic vet phoning, one inwardly, rubbing foal with towel etc. trying to wake him up) :rolleyes:
once the cord was broken he happily came round and met his audience.
he's still hard to get out of bed!!!! :D
 
the sac will sometimes not break if it is too thick.

For me I'd say what one of the others above has said, once shoulders are free and if there is any distress, other wise If all was very well and textbook, I would let marey get on with it whilst quietly by standing ready to intervene and break bag if it doesn't when foalie lands :)

I have one due any minute, but she just keeps on eating :)
 
I've only foaled as many mares, in a lifetime, as some of the larger studs will in a season. I have however, calved hundreds of cows, and thousands of ewes, and the principles are much the same, I think!

As soon as the head is through, and both legs, I always open the bag. The breaking of the umbilical cord, will be the trigger for the first breath, and I wouldn't want that interfered with. When the bag is opened, then I would clear the nasal passages, though all so often the first breath is taken through the mouth. The other benefit is that a better purchase can be had on legs which are not encased in a bag.

Even partial suffocation, can cause serious problems. I fail to see any benefit, what so ever, in leaving a foal to fight its own way through. It will take but a few seconds for an encased foal to suffocate. I always help a foaling mare.

Alec.
 
As soon as the head is through, and both legs, I always open the bag.
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I've always been told that is too soon.......

I would only ever break the sack once the front shoulders are clear.
 
Alec Swan said:
I've only foaled as many mares, in a lifetime, as some of the larger studs will in a season. I have however, calved hundreds of cows, and thousands of ewes, and the principles are much the same, I think!

As soon as the head is through, and both legs, I always open the bag. The breaking of the umbilical cord, will be the trigger for the first breath, and I wouldn't want that interfered with. When the bag is opened, then I would clear the nasal passages, though all so often the first breath is taken through the mouth. The other benefit is that a better purchase can be had on legs which are not encased in a bag.

Even partial suffocation, can cause serious problems. I fail to see any benefit, what so ever, in leaving a foal to fight its own way through. It will take but a few seconds for an encased foal to suffocate. I always help a foaling mare.

Alec.
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I would agree with you.
 
I always tend to tear the bag if i need to get a purchase on the forelegs if the shoulders are a bit too squared up and jammed, only because it helps the grip, I dont tend to worry about the breathing too much at that stage. One thing Im always careful to do however is to allow the waste fluids to escape from the bag into the straw rather than form a pool which the foal may draw breath into when almost totally born. HOWEVER I do remember years ago a local stud owner interfering far too much too soon when the foal was out to its chest , the foal consequently struggled too much and the mare died two days later or so from septicaemia as its feet had penetrated the walls of the uterus. Sometimes less is more but as said above, the foal is well oxygenated whilst attatched to the umbilicus as long as the cord is not squeezed against the pelvis during birth . Just use common sense .
 
Alec, couldn't agree with you more. We assist with all foalings, in the correct way. In today's day and age, with domesticated animals I see absolutely no reason to risk a foal in any way or cause the mare any more a difficult birth than she needs to have.
 
amy_b said:
we had this sort of thing happen last year...it was something to do with him being born with everything including the afterbirth all at once so even though he was on the floor he was technically still snoozing thanks to his umbilical cord. all the while me and my mum are panicking (one outwardly, frantic vet phoning, one inwardly, rubbing foal with towel etc. trying to wake him up) :rolleyes:
once the cord was broken he happily came round and met his audience.
he's still hard to get out of bed!!!! :D
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Can I just say.. I read this and was slightly confused.


what is the whole technically he was still snoozing that's to his umbilical cord??? Once the cord broke he came round??? I have never heard of this before.. please could you shed more light..:)

I agree with Alec re: breaking amnion though.
 
I break the bag when Alec does, but he says "the breaking of the umbilical cord, will be the trigger for the first breath" and i don't think that's correct... i've had them 90% out (back lower legs still resting in mare to keep her down) with umbilical still attached, and breathing well on their own, for 5 mins or more... so, i'm still confused.
they won't suffocate while the umbilical's intact, i think, but you don't want to break the bag and get them breathing while their ribcage is still in the mare, i think, so the timing of clearing out the mouth, removing the milt etc is still quite important... no?
if anyone can clarify this, i'll be really grateful.
 
Alec Swan said:
I've only foaled as many mares, in a lifetime, as some of the larger studs will in a season. I have however, calved hundreds of cows, and thousands of ewes, and the principles are much the same, I think!

As soon as the head is through, and both legs, I always open the bag. The breaking of the umbilical cord, will be the trigger for the first breath, and I wouldn't want that interfered with. When the bag is opened, then I would clear the nasal passages, though all so often the first breath is taken through the mouth. The other benefit is that a better purchase can be had on legs which are not encased in a bag.

Even partial suffocation, can cause serious problems. I fail to see any benefit, what so ever, in leaving a foal to fight its own way through. It will take but a few seconds for an encased foal to suffocate. I always help a foaling mare.

Alec.
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I agree with all the above and I always do the same! Well put Alec
 
I have never delivered a foal but they can't be any different to a human baby where the umbilicus is concerned. The foal breathes before the cord is broken (think babies coming out screaming long before their cord is cut)..the reason not to cut the umbilicus too soon is to allow for the blood to transfer as much as it is going to. If someone is led to believe the foal won't breathe on its own before the cord is broken, they may leave them in the bag and unwittingly watch them suffocate to death.

I would never have the courage to foal down on my own, I am not experienced enough and will always leave that to those who know what they are doing but if I found myself in that situation I would always break the bag.
 
We have foaled a fair few mares now. We tend to assist in some shape or form in quite a few cases, trying to back out once the head and shoulders out but always breaking the membrane as soon as viable. This year for the first time we had one stuck at the pelvic which was a first and had to peel the membrane to gain purchase. I would say I have heard of more losses through not breaking the membrane and never of breaking it. Indeed many years ago I was so lucky getting to a mare who had foaled unassisted and the membrane was so strong around the foal I had to take a stanley knife to it. This was a maiden mare who had no idea what to do and I would have lost the foal for sure. Scared the hell out of me and now keep a very close eye especially on maidens.
 
As a first time breeder last year when my mare foaled (quite easily to be fair), the filly was completely out and sat in her bag looking at me. I broke the bag just around head area as I really did not know what to do, I thought it would of broken sooner however it did not. The filly then crawled out of her bag to the mares head, vet said I had done the right thing as it did appear that the bag would not of broken without my help. It was scarey at the time, but on reflection it almost appeared that the filly looked at me and thought are you going to get me out of this bag or what.
 
kerilli said:
....... but he says "the breaking of the umbilical cord, will be the trigger for the first breath" and i don't think that's correct...
.......if anyone can clarify this, i'll be really grateful.
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Thinking carefully, about the statement which you've quoted, you may very well be right. Not generally, but on occasions, I've most certainly had foals, calves and lambs, which have been drawing breath, whilst the umbilical is still attached, and generally it's been the most vibrant! I'd be surprised to hear that the entrance which we would make, into the bag would be the trigger which sets up the first breathing attempts, but then I simply don't know. I think that I'd prefer to meet any problems before they arise, currently!!

Your final sentence, as would I!!

I'm more than happy for someone to explain how, or why I'm wrong. Perhaps the secret is to be able to recognise the seriously lively foals, and before parturition is complete! I had a foaling mare, once, and during a lull in the proceedings, I cleared the foal's face of mucous, and he was clearly looking for milk. As an experiment, I offered my thumb, which he took, and God but it hurt. I pitied the poor mare's teats!!

As a final thought, I once asked a highly experienced vet what actually instigates birth. She said that she thought that it was the foal, and the need to fill it's lungs.

Alec.
 
The_snoopster said:
As a first time breeder last year when my mare foaled (quite easily to be fair), the filly was completely out and sat in her bag looking at me. I broke the bag just around head area as I really did not know what to do, I thought it would of broken sooner however it did not. The filly then crawled out of her bag to the mares head, vet said I had done the right thing as it did appear that the bag would not of broken without my help. It was scarey at the time, but on reflection it almost appeared that the filly looked at me and thought are you going to get me out of this bag or what.
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that last bit made chuckle -i could image her growing up with a bit of attitude :p
 
I agree with Alec - I wait until the mare is down and that first quiet check I do to make sure foalie is positioned correctly - ie. 2 feet and nose, that is when I remove the bag, if it isn't already broken, away from foals nose and mouth even if that is all that is sticking out, it also reduces the amount of time in the stable even though our mares are all pretty chilled out and don't mind me there. I also check for cleft palate at the same time and make sure there are no obstructions or gunk that could be inhaled in that first breath and risk a chest infection, if all is well then I leave well alone and watch from a distance, I see no reason to leave the bag intact at all and possibly risk suffocation.

All of mine have been breathing well as soon as their chest is free and with the umbilical still attached and pumping blood from placenta to foal for upto half an hour while mum is still down and foal is still resting half in half out of the mare, (very important as a large amount of the foals blood volume is still in the placenta!) so the actual physical breaking of it isn't what stimulates them to breath it is the rise of carbon dioxide in their blood kick starting the breathing reflex.
The placenta cannot support the foal once it has started to separate from the uterine wall - it can provide a bit of oxygen and get rid of some carbon dioxide where it is still attached to the mare but no where near enough to support it. So leaving the bag intact and hoping the foals desperate flailing as it suffocates will break it isn't a good idea as sometimes it can be thickened and the foal having the little finger things on their hooves it is pretty hard for it to get a grip on it, it's bad enough sometimes for me to break as it is so slippery!! Hence the reason to keep a VERY watchful eye on in foal mares to make sure all is well as it only takes minutes for it to all go pear shaped!!!!

The actual labour itself is triggered by the foal being in distress as it has reached the maximum size that the placenta can provide oxygen/take away C02 for, the foal releases hormones and labour is triggered, the mare can delay the early stages if they feel threatened but not for very long and it can damage the foal.
 
Ah right, that all makes sense, thankyou. As echoed above, I've heard of quite a few cases of foals being lost through being left in the bag, and it's my biggest fear, and the reason I'm on tenterhooks for weeks, just in case...
 
rachi0 said:
Can I just say.. I read this and was slightly confused.


what is the whole technically he was still snoozing that's to his umbilical cord??? Once the cord broke he came round??? I have never heard of this before.. please could you shed more light..:)

I agree with Alec re: breaking amnion though.
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well as best as i know...
he was out of the sack all fine, but wasnt breathing, apparently it was because the afterbirth came out at the same time instead of passing it later, and so the cord was still intact and nutrients were still going through to him until mum broke the cord. it was the first time i had seen a foaling so i was pretty clueless (mum has had foals before and was on the phone to the vet so i hope im not painting a picture of complete amateurs!!
 
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