Opinions on changing working pupil positions??

[Leo Walker]

So complicated these days and everyone wants something more!

How about looking at this another way, as a training position Which is what a working pupil is. Ok if fully experienced with x years training a realistic wage should be paid and expected but this doesn’t appear to be the case.

As a student at college you’d be paying course fees, plus accommodation costs and have to pay for your horses livery. So how would these be funded?

So two lessons a day from a top instructor could easily be £50 for 45 mins each so that £500 a week if we consider a 5 day week. Livery including food and bedding? even on DIY is likely to be at least £90 or considerably more depending on the area and with indoor and outdoor schools free to use. Accommodation charges are set, including hot water and heat?

l haven’t any idea where this place is but assuming the lessons are of good standard and as frequent as stated then maybe there’s more to this than just a working position. Modern apprenticeships don’t pay minimum wage they pay a ‘training’ amount.
Sadly as WP jobs decrease in number due to current expectations the number of people with appropriate knowledge/experience gained in a hands on way decreases and we‘ll continue in the downward spiral of horses being disposable as no one has sufficient knowledge to either train correctly or overcome any problems which will inevitably arise when unskilled workers are the only source of labour.

They pay a training amount and they abide by the law. So theres no looking at it another way. This is illegal and immoral on every single level. I cannot believe that anyone would ever think it was ok for someone to work 60 hours a week and not be paid.

Students at college are not working, they are studying, theres no comparison to be made.

Modern apprenticeships pay a minimum wage of £7.70 for over 21s so still a very significant amount for a 60 hour week, which would not be allowed anyway.

Apprentices must work towards an approved apprenticeship standard or framework. Their training must last at least 12 months.

So not just lessons from someone.

attending training that is required by the employer, onsite or off-site, during or outside your normal hours, your average hourly pay, including time spent training, must be at least the National Minimum Wage. Where training is off-site, this includes time spent travelling between the workplace and the training centre.

As far as I can see from a quick check, whilst deductions can be made for training, if agreed prior in writing, they cannot be used to take the employee under the minimum wage threshold.

 

[SilverLy]

They are breaking the law. End of. 60 hours at minimum wage is £402.61 a week. Minus accommodation costs which can be maximum of £52.85, you should be coming out with £349.76. Even with livery and training, you are not getting that much in benefits.

Do you get payslips? If not I would assume they are not paying your national insurance contribution, which affects all sorts of things from statutory sick pay to pensions.

This is illegal and you are being exploited. I am so very sorry that this is still happening in this day and age. Please leave and report them as you do.

I appreciate the concern and it’s really good to know what I’m entitled to but I won’t report them as I’d like to leave on good terms. It’s been great here for sorting out my riding and my youngster, so I think I’ll just leave it at that - I’m gonna find it hard enough leaving as it is!

 

[Patterdale]

They could actually be prosecuted under the modern slavery act. There have been a few yards done this way with working pupils not being paid.
The fact that you think it’s ok because they’re ‘good people’ is alarming, but not unusual and sadly it’s why they continue to get away with it.
You may feel differently once you’ve left and gained some perspective.

 

[abb123]

I can understand why you are happy with the agreement as I think it has worked quite well for you. In a perfect world it works well for both as they get free labour and you get free training.

However, and I don't mean to add to what has already been said, but it is immoral on many levels.

I have similar situations where I work as a scientist as we get a lot of very enthusiastic students asking if they can do research with us and are quite happy to not be paid. As a department we took the decision to not allow this as not only is it exploitative of the student themselves but it also excludes those who can't afford to work for free.

I hope you move as I think it will be good for what you want to do but also you should get paid!

 

[SilverLy]

I can understand why you are happy with the agreement as I think it has worked quite well for you. In a perfect world it works well for both as they get free labour and you get free training.

However, and I don't mean to add to what has already been said, but it is immoral on many levels.

I have similar situations where I work as a scientist as we get a lot of very enthusiastic students asking if they can do research with us and are quite happy to not be paid. As a department we took the decision to not allow this as not only is it exploitative of the student themselves but it also excludes those who can't afford to work for free.

I hope you move as I think it will be good for what you want to do but also you should get paid!

Having read everyone’s view on this matter, I’m starting to see their point but as you say, it’s worked out well for me for these six months which is great.
Anyways, I’ve got the new position which is good - yay! All I need to do now is talk to current employers (if that’s what they are?) and discuss when I leave. Do you think I should do a notice period? Or can I leave whenever, as there’s no contract?

 

[Cloball]

If you have no contract I don't think you have an agreed notice period so you can leave straight away, although I think a week is reasonable given the circumstances and the fact you want to leave on good terms.

 

[SilverLy]

If you have no contract I don't think you have an agreed notice period so you can leave straight away, although I think a week is reasonable given the circumstances and the fact you want to leave on good terms.

Well I’ve just talked to them.... god that was the most uncomfortable moment of my life! Another girl left yesterday so they want two weeks notice period so I guess I’m gonna have to do that.

 

[Goldenstar]

So complicated these days and everyone wants something more!

How about looking at this another way, as a training position Which is what a working pupil is. Ok if fully experienced with x years training a realistic wage should be paid and expected but this doesn’t appear to be the case.

As a student at college you’d be paying course fees, plus accommodation costs and have to pay for your horses livery. So how would these be funded?

So two lessons a day from a top instructor could easily be £50 for 45 mins each so that £500 a week if we consider a 5 day week. Livery including food and bedding? even on DIY is likely to be at least £90 or considerably more depending on the area and with indoor and outdoor schools free to use. Accommodation charges are set, including hot water and heat?

l haven’t any idea where this place is but assuming the lessons are of good standard and as frequent as stated then maybe there’s more to this than just a working position. Modern apprenticeships don’t pay minimum wage they pay a ‘training’ amount.
Sadly as WP jobs decrease in number due to current expectations the number of people with appropriate knowledge/experience gained in a hands on way decreases and we‘ll continue in the downward spiral of horses being disposable as no one has sufficient knowledge to either train correctly or overcome any problems which will inevitably arise when unskilled workers are the only source of labour.

while I see the logic in much of what you say it does not change the fact that OP’s conditions are not legal .

 

[Goldenstar]

Well I’ve just talked to them.... god that was the most uncomfortable moment of my life! Another girl left yesterday so they want two weeks notice period so I guess I’m gonna have to do that.

I think you have no need to do that but it’s worth doing so you can leave on good terms they have no reason to feel aggrieved working people sixty hours a week with no salary means that turnover is part of life .
Best of luck at the new yard I hope you have a wonderful time .

 

[ihatework]

Well I’ve just talked to them.... god that was the most uncomfortable moment of my life! Another girl left yesterday so they want two weeks notice period so I guess I’m gonna have to do that.

I don’t think that’s unfair.
Always best to leave somewhere on as good a term as possible. It’s a small industry!

 

[twiggy2]

I agree it's good to leave on pleasant terms.
I did check on the grooms association and a 'working pupil' position by definition is a working position and minimum wage should be paid by law.
Good luck at the new place OP.