Opinions on Kissing spines please

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izmeister

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Hi, my horse is off for xrays tomorrow to check for kissing spines, i havent been able to get on him for a month now, had his back done twice, changed saddles, finally called the vet in, and she suspects ks. My worry is, my horse is a sensitive soul, and he seems to have made up his mind that he doesnt want anyone on his back. The op seems a lot to put him through, and i worry he wont cope. Has anyone heard of the keyhole surgery for ks now being done in wales?? it seems far less invasive, i was wondering if anyone has come accross it?? any other ideas or tips would be great! I concerned i will put him through a major op to then find out he has made his mind up he wont be ridden anyway
 
It will depend upon how many areas are "Kissing". A friend just had one and that was dealt with by injection and no surgery was required. This was carried out at home. We thought we may have had a horse with KS but in fact it was a hock problem which in turn caused soreness in the back.
There is a B&W practice in Cardiff who have a very smart equine hospital in Gloucestershire. and one of the leading KS surgeons works there.
 
My horse had 5 spinal processes removed under standing sedation at Rossdales last November. Yesterday I rode him for the first time since the op and he felt wonderful. I have a long way to go yet but he is already a changed horse. He moves much freer in all paces and I can now girth him up without him freaking out. Before the op he was explosive under saddle and completely unridable.
 
Hi, thanks for the replies, mine is explosive and unrideable so its good to hear they can come right! would be nice if it was a case of injections not surgery but i dont suppose i will be that lucky! thanks again
 
izmeister said:
Hi, thanks for the replies, mine is explosive and unrideable so its good to hear they can come right! would be nice if it was a case of injections not surgery but i dont suppose i will be that lucky! thanks again
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Mine had the injections and they didn't help in the slightest, but he had a very bad case.
 
I actually didn't find the operation at all bad. He never seemed at all uncomfortable and only had 2 weeks box rest followed by a further two weeks with walking in hand. He was visibly more comfortable from the day I collected him a week after the op. After 4 weeks he was allow 2 months turnout for a few hours a day before I started lunge work.
 
wagtail, that doesnt sound as bad as i thought, i have heard much longer box rest being necesary, did yours come ok in the end?
 
izmeister said:
wagtail, that doesnt sound as bad as i thought, i have heard much longer box rest being necesary, did yours come ok in the end?
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So far yes. I have only been lunging him 4 weeks and already he looks loads better. When I got on him for the first time yesterday he felt really strong and solid. He was also visibly pleased with himself afterwards. Really really happy and relaxed.
 
Well hopefully it won't be KS, but if it is, the success rate for the op is around 80%. Good luck and keep us posted. :)
 
Firstly can I just say I wish you the best of luck whatever you find / decide as each horse is different and it is a decision only you can make with your vet.

But I'm anti KS surgery...

I know 2 horses that have had it - one was PTS last year - and the other was given away as it was pretty much clinically insane after all it had been through!!!

Neither made the recovery the owner had wanted and it has made me think I wouldn't put my horse through it. I wouldn't be happy if the horse was just a happy hacker at the end of it all & to me I can't see how spinal surgery can be healthy for an animal that we want to sit on!!!

I asked my back lady her opinion and she wouldn't put her horse through it either!!!

It might sound a stupid question but has the horse ever been good to ride? As I think both the horses I know KS was a convenient explanation on horses that were actually just a little insane!!!

Anyway I hope you find an answer to his behaviour and a solution!!!
 
Becki1802 said:
It might sound a stupid question but has the horse ever been good to ride? As I think both the horses I know KS was a convenient explanation on horses that were actually just a little insane!!!
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Or maybe both those horses were in pain from KS their entire lives...


OP, I had a horse PTS last week because of severe KS, and my vet felt that even if he had the op, she didn't fancy his chances of ever recovering fully, both mentally and physically.:(

At the same time, there are plenty of success stories out there, and horses that are better than ever after the surgery.:)

You know your horse best, and I'm sure you'll make the best decision for him, with the help and guidance of your vet.:)

Fingers crossed for you and your boy, I hope you get good news tomorrow.:)
 
Have seen/heard of/known atleast 3 horses who have had a KS op and just been a different horse after it.

The rehab after is absolutely critical and cannot be rushed, but if you do it right the change I have seen in horses is phenominal :)
 
i went to a KS seminar by Sven Kold so if i can answer any questions you have PM me and il try my best to answer them.
My tb has KS of T14-16, but only a mild case, this is a secondry condition to his spavins in his hocks. His were injected once and i have not had them done again, but if he deteriates under saddle again then may have them injected again, but i was advised, provided he works correctly and is comfortable behind he should do fine.
 
faerie666 said:
Or maybe both those horses were in pain from KS their entire lives...
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I completely agree this may have been the case but if so the pain had done unrepairable damage to their attitude to being ridden. Just something to think about!

They are all individuals and I think very difficult to say until the X-rays have been taken!
 
Well mine has been diagnosed with 8 spinal processses touching - she had her back injected two weeks ago and will return for reassessment in 5 weeks - If vet believes at that point that her back has benefitted then he will operate to remove 4 of the processes.

My vet is Svend Kold from B & W at willesley and is one the worlds leading surgeons - he specialises in KS and has a high sucess rate - I will be guided by his decision as if he thinks it will not work - she will not have the operation.
 
Many vets still have a very negative outlook on kissing spines operations. My own vet advised me against it. It was the people on this forum that gave me hope and encouraged me to do my own research. As I said before, the success rates are around 80%. I can honestly say that my boy sailed through his surgery. He never once appeared uncomfortable, or if he was, it was so much LESS painful than the terrible pain he must have been in. He had ten spines touching or fused together. It was a really bad case. He is a different horse now. Even if I had not been able to ride him again it would have been worth it because he is such a happy boy and performs the most amazing acrobatics in the field. I have never seen anything like it in all my time with horses. His personality just shines and we have bonded so much since the surgery. Looking back, he was so repressed.

But not all horses are the same. He was good as gold at the hospital and throughout his short box rest. His wound remained infection free and he was a pleasure to deal with throughout.

My vet who had been so anti the operation has completely changed her views.
 
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kezimac said:
Well mine has been diagnosed with 8 spinal processses touching - she had her back injected two weeks ago and will return for reassessment in 5 weeks - If vet believes at that point that her back has benefitted then he will operate to remove 4 of the processes.

My vet is Svend Kold from B & W at willesley and is one the worlds leading surgeons - he specialises in KS and has a high sucess rate - I will be guided by his decision as if he thinks it will not work - she will not have the operation.
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Just wanted to say that my horse showed no improvement at all with the injections, but the surgery has made a massive difference, so you can't always tell.
 
We have two other horses on the yard with similar problems. One had it very mildly in that only two vertabra were almost touching. He was bucking and refusing to be tacked up. The first set of injections worked but only for a couple of weeks. He was medicated again, along with his owner finally seeing the point of schooling him correctly so he stretched over his back. That was two years ago and he's been fine since. The other was a youngster. He had the injections and shockwave therapy. He appears much better a year on. We will know more when we back him next month! It is an extremely common condition. It does not always cause problems, but when it does the problems can be severe.
 
Our mare has kissing spine in two places under her saddle area, we brought her two years ago as a companion.
The lady we brought her from looked into getting her opperated on but decided against it as she was given a 50/50 chance of a full recovery and would of had to be stabled for at least 6 months.
It is a shame as I feel she is bored being just a companion, although we do lunge her and take her for walks, If I knew the key hole surgery had a really high sucsses rate then I may look into it, but I dont know if she would take to kindly to being ridden again, as she was throwing riders off before she was diagnosed.
 
OP, in response to your original question regarding the surgery being carried out in Wales, I assume you mean the surgery to cut the ligament that runs along the spine that is being carried out at Cotts Farm in Pembs. I looked into it because it sounds like such a simple approach, and they seem to be having really good results. It is minimally invasive; no chipping off of big chunks of bone, but releasing the tension in the ligament seems to resolve the impingement of spinous processes on one another. I would imagine that rehab is quicker and easier because you have less soft tissue damage as a result of surgery.

I think there's quite a lot about it on their website, or i'm sure they'd be very willing to discuss it with you or your vet. I'd be interested to know how it goes if you do go ahead.
 
Becki1802 said:
As I think both the horses I know KS was a convenient explanation on horses that were actually just a little insane!!!
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faerie666 said:
Or maybe both those horses were in pain from KS their entire lives...
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Becki1802 said:
I completely agree this may have been the case but if so the pain had done unrepairable damage to their attitude to being ridden.
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So, do you think KS was just 'a convenient explanation' for those horses being 'a little insane', or do you think their behaviour was caused by pain from KS?:confused:
Can you see how you're contradicting yourself here?

I think everyone who has had to deal with this condition, especially where it was severe and/or long standing, knows there's a chance the horse won't recover mentally, which is why some of us make the decision to PTS, rather than operate.:(
 
faerie666 said:
So, do you think KS was just 'a convenient explanation' for those horses being 'a little insane', or do you think their behaviour was caused by pain from KS?:confused:
Can you see how you're contradicting yourself here?

I think everyone who has had to deal with this condition, especially where it was severe and/or long standing, knows there's a chance the horse won't recover mentally, which is why some of us make the decision to PTS, rather than operate.:(
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I agree completely. Some horses will not recover mentally, even if they become pain free. Much of the decision whether to operate, PTS or retire depends on making that judgement call. I was pretty certain that my boy would recover mentally because he is very 'black and white' to deal with. I could tell that his violent reactions to moving after you tightened the girth was a direct result of sudden stabbing pain. He was not always anticipating it. He would be completely fine and then just flip! I realised having suffered myself from sudden spasmotic pain in my back and sacroilliac area, that this is what he was feeling. I could be walking around fine one day and then suddenly be racked with sharp agonising pain that renders me unable to move. I figured that if his trapped nerves could be freed, then my horse would stop reacting. And he has. But another horse with exactly the same, may never be able to get over the anticipation of this sudden agony, and so the fairest thing for them would be to PTS.
 
I had my horse operated on at the Liphook Equine Hospital and I cannot recommend them highly enough. I had the injections initially but after a while they stopped working and after becoming completely unrideable ie me getting bucked off on a daily basis - my horse ended up having five spinal processes removed. My horse was a rescue as a two year old from a really abusive home and at 10 years old had never been out of my sight. I explained all this too them as he can be very agressive with people he does not know. They took exceptional care of him (as they do of every horse there) and during his time there they kept any distress to a minimum. The good thing there was he had the same member of staff dealing with him every day so could build up a relationship with them. I now have an amazing horse - he is completely transformed and although I turned him in the field for six months while I decided whether the surgery was the right way to go, I am now so glad for myself but more importantly my horse that I decided to give him the chance. If you want any further info please pm me and good luck
 
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