opinions on PG, increased risk of twinning please

Dizzykizzy

Dizzykizzy

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My mare has gone back to stud after losing twins in March then reabsorbing in JUne.
The stud owner can certainly talk the talk and I trusted her to do her best by my mare.
Nearly 4 weeks on, nothing doing, she was scanned and jabbed with PG, there was an 18mm follicle. That was Wednesday. Got a text on Sunday to say she'd been covered, fantastic!
Communication is only by text as stud owner NEVER answers her phone, I asked yesterday how it was going and she said they only covered her once because of the increased risk of twinning after PG. Well I am no expert but what difference does the number of times she is covered make? Surely if there is more than one follicle and she is receptive, once would be enough?
On the other hand, one covering as soon as she showed receptive doesn't seem likely to me to produce a pregnancy, the odds must be significantly reduced?
I am fuming as they are sitting pretty on my stud fee NFFR so she will have to go back in Spring, be re-swabbed and start again.
I really feel they have been incompetant and why didn't they discuss it with me? I think they have got more mares than their stallion can cope with and that's why ashe was only covered once. Grrr!
 
You could be lucky if he is fertile enough. 20 years ago I sent my PBA to an AA Ombre Solaire. My mare started rounding up & mounting the other mares & when the vet checked her he found she had overian cysts & a hormon imbalance. She was treated & when she came in season they were able to cover her, just, she kicked the stallion off! They waited but she never showed signs of coming into season again so they called the vet out who did an internal, & despite all that she was in-foal. So one covering can be enough, will keep my fingers crossed for you.
 
Thank you, I have all mine crossed too but I still feel there was no reason at all for them not to cover her again and increase her chances.
If she isn't in foal I am going to ask for my stud fee back and fight them if I have to as I don't want her to go back there next year. What a waste of a summer breeding season.
 
By all accounts it has not been a brilliant season anyway. I do understand where you are coming from, I had all this last year & my mare went off end of Feb. I had wanted an early foal as the plan was to do some shows, ended up with him being born June. As I said not impossible from one covering so here's hoping you are one of the lucky ones.
 
Hi
It does seem a little odd to me, I have never heard of an increased risk of twinning with PG (correct me if I am wrong -AndyPandy where are you when I need you!), all my mares are routinely PGed back into season if it is necessary and choroloned or ovuplanted depending if they are being done here at mine or at my vets to ovulate if we are going for one mating or using AI. We do have some double follicles and double ovulations but two of the three, this year have been on mares that have come into season 'au naturel' so to speak! One had twins (one pinched), One in foal single pregnancy and one didn't take at all on the double ovulation. I can only inform you from my own experiences but it doesn't sit quite right with me, but it does also depends on how quickly the follicle develops, it was 18mm on wednesday but you don't know how big it was on sunday when she was covered it needed to be 35mm + and if they only wanted to do one covering the mare should have been choroloned or ovuplanted imo, its just my opinion though.
I also wouldn't be compfortable using a stud that I could only speak to by text, even if I can't answer the phone when people ring me I call them back when I haven't got my hands full. Its not professional in my opinion not to speak to your clients directly, i'm not saying I never use text a couple of people text me and I text back but the majority it is always speaking directly on the phone.
 
I dont think one covering only is a problem, if the timing is right. In fact if I was going natural cover I would prefer the minimal number of coverings. you need to ask the SO if they scanned her again on Sunday or even on Monday to see that she had ovulated
 
I must say never heard of it and the only time my mare had twins was when it was all natural - the first time she was PG and no twins and my mare this year was PG too and no twins so i definately dont beleive that !!
 
I don't think one covering is a problem either, as long as timing is right, but coupled together with what has been said and not being able to speak to the stud directly, I would feel uncomfortable and as if something wasn't right in the OPs shoes as well.
 
Bloss is a maiden mare, and shes 14. She was PG'd and then done by frozen AI. She took first time. Vet never said there was any risk of twins due to the PG - the only thing he said to me was that her folicles were close together which gave her a high chance of twins. Fortunately she has one little mini bloss the size of a rugby ball inside her now!!
 
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Hi
It does seem a little odd to me, I have never heard of an increased risk of twinning with PG (correct me if I am wrong -AndyPandy where are you when I need you!)...

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According to a study by Veronesi et al, 2003; PG almost triples the chance of a twin pregnancy (from ~6% to ~17% (P=0.01)). However, in this study, TB mares were used. Warmbloods and other breeders have different rates of twin pregnancies to TB's and the authors of this study state that it may not be the same for other breeds, which have not been studied. Let's assume that PG also triples the chance of a twin ovulation in all breeds.

Even if this is the case, trying to use it as an excuse for covering once "when the mares started showing" is pretty poor. If she ovulates twice (and if both are within ~24hours of covering, even if the ovulations are 24 hours apart), the the sperm cells will likely get to both ova and fertilise them both. If she is going to get pregnant from the covering, and there are two ova, then you will most likely get twins. The number of coverings is irrelevant. Get your mare away from that stud as soon as possible; I wouldn't want to leave an animal with people who make excuses and use alleged "scientific facts" to back up these excuses.
 
I knew AP would have the answer
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and you learn something new everyday
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Seriously tho I wouldn't be happy with what ive heard about this stud either
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Thanks everyone for all your input.
I am really very unhappy with the way we have been treated and as AP says they are using "excuses and alleged scientific facts". What they don't know is that I am intelligent enough to follow up the rubbish they are spouting and I hope I have enough evidence to prove they have been negligent and/or incompetent and will return my stud fee.
She did speak to my husband this morning, I must admit I was too angry to speak to her and didn't want to say something I'd regret.
I did however get via text that it was on the advice of her vet (who I have asked to speak to but haven't been given a phone number) and that if they increased the risk of twins by covering her again, that it would end up costing me more as I would have to have at least 3 scans (??)
I am sickened and disgusted by this, they were good sales people, talked the talk (oh yes we will get your mare in foal this year) but I think are only after the £3 a day keep which is in the pocket profit for them as she is getting nothing but a tiny turn out paddock. And my vet and keep bills are mounting with little prospect of a 2008 foal for her.
 
My mare (tb) had 2 follicles when she went to twem for ai after a PG jab, she was inseminated but only one pregnancy seen at 16 days, def only had 1 foal! (both follicles were gone the next day btw so could have had twin preg) so I guess not all mares who ovulate twice within a time where a twinning could occur go on to have twins.

I only has 1 scan with mine, I guess worst case scenario you might need 3 scans, 1 to confirm preg then if twins, 1 after pinching to make sure the other preg was ok and one to confirm hearbeat, although I think this could be done in 2 scans (if 2nd scan showed heartbeat on remaining embryo). BUT, you might need 3 scans anyway with only 1 covering ANYWAY if she had 2 follicles. And didn't the stud say she had an 18mm follicle? then surely if they only saw one there was only one? This stud sounds like a bunch of money-grabbing, nonsense-talking muppetts!
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Why an additional 3 scans?! Maybe an additional ONE! Scan & pinch if necessary. Scan again to check if the other embryo survives.

If they're doing it naturally, going by the mare's estrus behaviour then surely they should cover day 1, 3 (and 5) regardless of whether or not their is a double ovulation. The ONLY way of reducing the chance of a twin pregnancy would be if the two follicles developed different ovaries, and then she was deep uterine insemination (AI) with a low dose to ensure that only one ova was exposed to sperm cells. There is NO way to influence the chance of a twin pregancy using natural covering. If they were doing their job properly they would be able to tell you if a double ovulation was likely to occur (from ultrasound images).

These people are scamming you. I hope you get it sorted. Good luck.
 
My 22yo mare had 2 follicles this year, she was inseminated and both ovulated, at 16 days she had a single pregnancy, I got the vet to check again 3 days later just to make sure it was a single pregnancy but only because i'm paranoid because she has some cysts and they look just like pregnancies to me on the scanner screen and I wanted to be safe that she hadn't mistaken a second pregnancy for a cyst (i'm sure she hadn't but when its not your usualy vet you can get a bit predantic!), then she had her heartbeat scan but the vet was happy at 16 days that it was only a single pregnancy.
 
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My mare has gone back to stud after losing twins in March then reabsorbing in JUne

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But this is not the the studs fault, and they are still working with your mare to endeavor that she returns home to you in foal, hats off to them for their commitment with all odds stacked against them as acheiving pregnacies after constption can prove difficult.

A single covering is sufficient when dealing with natural service, fresh semen matures in the mare and can be valid up to 3 - 7 days inside the mare, so would not be fretting over a single service. As they have already acheived two valid pregnacies I would be feeling pretty confident that they are aware of what they are doing.
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fresh semen matures in the mare and can be valid up to 3 - 7 days inside the mare, so would not be fretting over a single service.

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True but its upto 3 to 7 days, but most studs work on fresh semen being viable in the mare for 48 hours and a single service isn't going to reduce the chance of twinning if the mare has 2 follicles.
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What isn't right to me is the fact the SO won't speak to the OP on the phone just by text...
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the previous pregnancies were nothing to do with this stud, I don't think they have commitment to her at all, it was an opportunity to get a last minute stud fee with a load of lies attached.
Thanks for all positive input, I am very distressed about this especially after losing the twins and subsequent pregnancy.
 
the previous pregnancies were nothing to do with this stud,

sorry was not aware of this, why did you have to change the stallion? Did they not offer a NFFR or were you using frozen and only two doses provided?
 
Hi Opie, it's a long story..
The woman I bought her from in March didn't have her scanned and offered me a return to the stallion at her place FOC. She was covered and scanned in foal at 18 days but by 30 days had reabsorbed. The woman said the stallion's owner wanted the stud fee if I brought her again as she was having to pay it. It wasn't my stallion of choice so I decided to look for a different one. It was late June by now and I was worried about it getting too late but the stud she is at now reassured me that they could get her in foal and all would be well.
I honestly don't think I have done anything wrong, had a unhappy time through no fault of my own (or the mares) and I do feel aggrieved that the stud she is at now suddenly couldn't seem to care less whether she is in foal or not.
 
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My 22yo mare had 2 follicles this year, she was inseminated and both ovulated, at 16 days she had a single pregnancy, I got the vet to check again 3 days later just to make sure it was a single pregnancy...

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This is an important point HG... Sorry, I should have been clearer. The rate of double ovulations varies significantly between breeds, ages etc. The actual percentage of double ovulations is approximately 20% (this is an estimate - if anyone has any better info, please say so!), but only about a quarter of these double ovulations actually lead to two embryos descending into the uterus.

So about 6% of TB mares then have twin pregnancies at 16 days, and only ~25% of these survive to 40 days. So, actually less than 2% of TB mares will actually naturally carry twins past the 40 day stage.

Basically, double ovulation does NOT mean that you will get two embryos.
 
You mean ive actually managed to say something worthwhile
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dizzykizzy, i'm sorry things aren't working out for you with this stud, you may have to cut your loses
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....what type of stallion did you want maybe we can all make suggestion of similar stallions, at studs with good reputation where you will hopefully have a positive experience next season
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A quick update...the stud owner has text me to say my mare had gone out of season when they tried her on Wed and yesterday but miraculously is back in season today so they covered her today???
Spoke to vet who said he didn't say to cover her only once, he never mentioned the increased chance of twinning to her and he is now seriously concerned if she really has short cycled.
He is coming to scan her again on Monday and find out where she's at.
So, I think I was justified in my concerns!

Thanks for all your input so far everyone.
 
From what you have said I think your concerns are well justified and it would really pee me off only being able to text and not speak to them, I hope you are keeping all the texts because they show them contradicting themselves.
 
sorry to hear you have been having a rough time of it
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really hope things work out for you in the end. Keep us posted. Defintely some strange things being said and would not be happy at receiving text messages to keep me updated that would make me mad too.
 
OMG, I am seriously worried now!
She has just sent a text more or less accusing me of bringing EVA to her yard!
What is wrong with this woman?
I was hoping to wait until the vet had seen her on Monday but now I don't really know what to do as she is making me very uncomfortable. I guess that is the idea but she has no grounds for this claim at all.
 
Very, very strange woman. Get your mare away from them asap. I would be worried as she may be saying this to cover up for something... If the stallion is from continental Europe, I would be VERY concerned.
 
She just rang me and started yelling down the phone at me. According to her I have been a problem since my mare arrived. She flatly denies telling me the follicle was 18mm last Wednesday and said I am a liar but up to that point I wouldn't have known what was an expected size for a follicle. Anyway the vet told me yesterday he told her there were no follicles over 20mm.
I have to say I am starting to feel very scared.
The stallion was born and bred in this country.
 
She sounds like a lunatic to me!! EVA is a DEFRA notifable diease.
Under law the Divisional Veterinary Manager of DEFRA has to be notified even if EVA isn't confirmed but just suspected.
DEFRA will serve notice prohibiting the use of her stallion for the use of breeding and take samples or obtain information in order to establish whether disease is preent and if so the extent it has spread.
Personally I think she is being a crank but I would recommend you report her accusation to DEFRA because it will serve her notice prohibiting her to use her stallion for breeding and go from there..... If they have EVA it is more likely that your mare caught it from her stallion because she hasn't taken enough precautions....
All the suspect horses will be isolated and any incontact horses will be separated away from others and any horses testing positive will be treated by the attending vet and DVM.
Good Luck!
 
Just as a little extra info, as well as the intrinsic factors such as endometrial disease, progesterone deficiency, maternal age, lactation or foal-heat breeding which can lead to higher rates of early embryonic loss (before 50 days), there are also extrinsic factors including stress, nutrition, climate, breeding management and techniques, and sire factors.

Stress has been shown to decrease progesterone levels in the mare, which in turn lead to increased embryonic losses. There are many factors that could contribute to stress and most of these are difficult to assess in the overall stress level of the mare. Stress may be related to pain, foaling, breeding, nutrition, transport, weather etc. Although a study conducted at Colorado, demonstrated that extended transport of the mare immediately after breeding had no significant effect on the level of embryonic loss. However, I imagine that stress later in the pregnancy (20-40 days) could lead to a drop in progesterone, which could lead to pregnancy loss.

Poor mare nutrition and body condition influence the rate of embryonic loss. A critical time of embryonic loss appears to be between day 25 to 30 for mares receiving poor nutrition. But I've also read studies which say that overweight mares (even 20kg overweight) could suffer from early embryonic loss more than mares at an optimum weight.

The influence of climatic factors (season, light, temperature) definitely affect a mare's reproductive cycle. However, the effect of these factors on embryonic loss is unknown. Heat stress has been demonstrated to be an important factor associated with high embryonic loss rates in cows in southern summer climates.

I just thought it was worth mentioning the factors that can be easily controlled
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