Opinions on riding/training - should you only have them if..

martlin said:
What I find most bizarre in the whole Totilas affair is, Edward Gal has rollkured him into stardom and has been adored for it, could do no wrong and ''obviously loved the horse very much'', ''created happy and brilliant partnership'' and so on. Totilas gets sold, Mathias gets the ride, rides the horse classically and gets absolutely slated for it, returns to rollkuring the horse into stardom and gets even more bashing :o Now, please, make up your minds, which way is it? Because you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
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:) :)
 
martlin said:
What I find most bizarre in the whole Totilas affair is, Edward Gal has rollkured him into stardom and has been adored for it, could do no wrong and ''obviously loved the horse very much'', ''created happy and brilliant partnership'' and so on. Totilas gets sold, Mathias gets the ride, rides the horse classically and gets absolutely slated for it, returns to rollkuring the horse into stardom and gets even more bashing :o Now, please, make up your minds, which way is it? Because you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
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Agree with this completely
 
SpottedCat said:
To me it's a bit like having an opinion on the Large Hadron Collider and experiments therein - we've all done physics at school, but unless we've done physics at that level then whilst we might be able to form an opinion and put it across in a reasonably articulate way that might convince others who are of a similar/lower level of knowledge, we really wouldn't stand up to scrutiny by those physicists who do work there and have more knowledge than us. In fact, those physicists might not even be able to explain what they are doing in such a way as to enable us to understand it, let alone form a useful opinion on whether or not it is a valid way of doing things.
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I don't agree here. The HC is an inanimate thing not a living, breathing and sentient being.

To a large extent, horses are horses and we can all learn to 'read' their expression and what crank nose bands and hauling a horse into exaggerated flexion does both physically and mentally. A horse working correctly will put himself into self carriage... imo this is the 'art' of dressage training ie. to get a horse over time to this level of fitness so he can maintain self carriage in collection for sustained periods himself!

Those that use this technique have learned to see this (over bent, stressed horses) as 'normal'! :(
 
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Mondy, I genuinely stand by my statement that until I see a video of Totilas in Rollkur under MAR it was not Rollkur but an unfortunate set of photos.

I've done this loads now... Feel like a total idiot every time I say it because I'm the only one saying it it seems.

A pro camera can take 10 photos in a second. 3 seconds, 30 photos. Say Totilas spooked and tried to bog off and MAR pulled him back. He's highly trained so this strong half halt produced this reaction (unsurprising, as he's been trained like this with Gal). So there are 4 people with pro standard cameras at different points round the ring. Over those 3 seconds, they got 120 photos between them, and they look like they're from different points round the arena. Say this happened twice- 240 photos depicting 6 seconds of preventing a horse from bogging off. And it looks like Rollkur.
 
martlin said:
Now, please, make up your minds, which way is it? Because you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
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I don't like the treatment of Rath at all. However, a lot of the people with concerns now are the same people with concerns before.

People seem to be forgetting that Totilas' way of going has never had universal praise or agreement.

There may well be posters on here who are condemning Rath who liked Gal, but I wouldn't assume that of anyone. It's certainly being discussed more since the sale, which in this case seems to have had a negative effect.
 
rhino said:
I don't like the treatment of Rath at all. However, a lot of the people with concerns now are the same people with concerns before.

People seem to be forgetting that Totilas' way of going has never had universal praise or agreement.

There may well be posters on here who are condemning Rath who liked Gal, but I wouldn't assume that of anyone. It's certainly being discussed more since the sale, which in this case seems to have had a negative effect.
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TBH I don't like the look of Totilas, can't get excited about him and frankly (although it might get me branded as a horse abuser or similar), I don't think I care :eek:
But I am somewhat interested in the human nature aspect of this phenomenon. My comments are sort of a brief summary of general (not specific to any ONE person) feel on this and other forums :o
 
martlin said:
TBH I don't like the look of Totilas, can't get excited about him and frankly (although it might get me branded as a horse abuser or similar), I don't think I care :eek:
But I am somewhat interested in the human nature aspect of this phenomenon. My comments are sort of a brief summary of general (not specific to any ONE person) feel on this and other forums :o
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I get that, I think we're on the same page :) I just thought that it was worthwhile mentioning that there has long been debate over Totilas, it's not a new thing, just more high profile and with a different rider.
 
rhino said:
There may well be posters on here who are condemning Rath who liked Gal, but I wouldn't assume that of anyone. It's certainly being discussed more since the sale, which in this case seems to have had a negative effect.
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Wasn't he already in heart bars at the time of sale? :(
 
Oh, yes, by all means... the new star was born and it all kicked off ;) :D

I always wonder how rollkur is very bad, but being very, very crap at maintaining a good contact with horse's mouth is excusable... I don't think it makes a lot of difference to the horse if the hyperflexion is intentional or not, I think I would even go further and say that in the case of deliberate RK, there at least will be a release at some point :eek:
 
martlin said:
Oh, yes, by all means... the new star was born and it all kicked off ;) :D

I always wonder how rollkur is very bad, but being very, very crap at maintaining a good contact with horse's mouth is excusable... I don't think it makes a lot of difference to the horse if the hyperflexion is intentional or not, I think I would even go further and say that in the case of deliberate RK, there at least will be a release at some point :eek:
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http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php

I think this is a good example of The rollkur theory and like the compare and contrast given. I dont compete at a high level, but know i dont want to damage my horse and for me in a dressage arena, i want a relaxed horse, why choose rollkur which is shown to cause stress and physical damage ?
Personally i wouldnt advocate its use, but then im no Matthias or Edward :o
 
marydoll said:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php

I think this is a good example of The rollkur theory and like the compare and contrast given. I dont compete at a high level, but know i dont want to damage my horse and for me in a dressage arena, i want a relaxed horse, why choose rollkur which is shown to cause stress and physical damage ?
Personally i wouldnt advocate its use, but then im no Matthias or Edward :o
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Thanks marydoll for the link, I know what rollkur is, what I fail to see is, from a horse's perspective, how deliberate hyperflexion is worse than accidental one :)
 
martlin said:
What I find most bizarre in the whole Totilas affair is, Edward Gal has rollkured him into stardom and has been adored for it, could do no wrong and ''obviously loved the horse very much'', ''created happy and brilliant partnership'' and so on. Totilas gets sold, Mathias gets the ride, rides the horse classically and gets absolutely slated for it, returns to rollkuring the horse into stardom and gets even more bashing :o Now, please, make up your minds, which way is it? Because you can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
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I agree, it's not fair. Personally, I worded my comment carefully - I think that the photos looked vile. I don't know whether they were representative of how he rides the horse (for the reasons Lolo describes), nor do I think that MAR is the devil incarnate for riding as he does - I just think those photos looked vile :p

Mind you, I am no particular fan of Totilas or Edward Gal either :D

And I rarely have a "good" contact on my horse's mouth. He's lucky if I have any sort of contact :eek:
 
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marydoll said:
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php

I think this is a good example of The rollkur theory and like the compare and contrast given. I dont compete at a high level, but know i dont want to damage my horse and for me in a dressage arena, i want a relaxed horse, why choose rollkur which is shown to cause stress and physical damage ?
Personally i wouldnt advocate its use, but then im no Matthias or Edward :o
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Very good article
 
Totilas leaves no one indifferent. However, as the discussions after his victories over the weekend less about the feats of the dressage horse in the arena than the way there.

The images of the test preparations of the rider Matthias Rath in Hagen, are circulating on the Internet come in, and animal rights activists at the base of massive rejection and overthrow the German Equestrian Federation in a moral conflict. Is it to coercive methods, it has so far refused to accept the success of sake?

Preparation Training "at the border"
A combined internal review has shown that head coach Johnny Hagen Hilberath already intervened and admonished coach and father Klaus Martin Rath. The preparatory session on Saturday was "on the border" was, he told the sporting director of the German Olympic Equestrian Committee, Dennis finders.

On the second day, counsel had "improved". "We have to have a clear understanding," said direction finder. "When it comes to aggressive riding and a steady state, we argue that, as an association."

Family council does not dispute, work in preparation for the exam recently with a method known as "Rollkur", "hyperflexion" or "long, deep and round / LDR" is known. It is based on the submission of a horse by extreme rolling the horse's neck. This horse is physically and mentally energized and restricts his field of vision. Experts speak of substantial damages. Without aggression allowed the world governing body, the "Rollkur" for less than ten minutes. This rule will, however, by the advocates rejected the traditional cavalry .

Klaus Martin Rath admitted on Tuesday against the FAZ on that had "Matthias about ten minutes a little more control" is used. For this purpose he had practiced a "slightly lower setting." The pictures show a consistent application of hyperflexion, however, from the classical ideal that the front of the horse will not come behind the vertical, deviated extremely. "The stallion stands at stud," said Rath, "he has a proud self-confidence."

For less rigid control in the twelve years of Totila had done in the past insults and get lower grades, from the European Championship 2011 was returned without a single medal counsel. In his world-record checks Totila was Matthias Rath ridden predecessor Edward Gal. Gal is a member of the Dutch dressage school, their track record on the - by the "Rollkur" to be achieved - performance is based

"There are also the guiding principle that the rider's horse riding its way not to impose," said Klaus Martin Rath. "The horse has become so big. He has been trained for six or seven years so it knows the work, so it must go with you a bit. "

Applying the "Rollkur" means a complete reversal of the Kronberger family dressage. Just two years ago had the 27-year-old rider, trainer and his father and his step-mother and co-owner Ann-Kathrin Totilas Linsenhoff condemns hyperflexion harsh.

In an open letter dated 3 February 2010 to the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) states: "If you accept riding in hyperflexion / LDR method as a training method to legitimize, you want to aggressive riding. In contrast, we protest in the strongest! "

Today Klaus Martin Rath weakens this opinion. "It is his life apprentice," he says. "If we had said two years ago, someone that Totila would come to us, we would eventually also claims that it was only a dream."

Humane Society: Development in "completely wrong direction"
The German Animal Protection Association on the other hand insists on its position. Which was to be seen in the photos "method to not tolerate" it says in a statement. The riding was developing into a "completely wrong direction." The Humane Society urges that "this practice is generally to be avoided". In a general statement that hyperflexion is compared to a "police control". "Totilas is not an isolated case."

Then again relies equestrian official peg. Just a "single case" if it were. With the classic riding advice was not progressed with Totila. DF refers to other German combinations - Helen Langehanenberg with Damon Hill and Kristina Sprehe with Desperados - who proved that a basic education on the basis of the classical theory could lead also to brilliant results. Rath had won both the Grand Prix at Hagen and the freestyle with top-scores.

Already one quarter reports had put the industry into turmoil, the Dutch coach Sjef Janssen will bond to the Olympic Games in London Totilas new coach. After the current conversion training but do not put Janssen, father says Rath. "We have learned through trial and error," he says. "Now no one can say more, Matthias was the only passenger of Totila."
 
kirstykate said:
Totilas leaves no one indifferent. However, as the discussions after his victories over the weekend less about the feats of the dressage horse in the arena than the way there.

The images of the test preparations of the rider Matthias Rath in Hagen, are circulating on the Internet come in, and animal rights activists at the base of massive rejection and overthrow the German Equestrian Federation in a moral conflict. Is it to coercive methods, it has so far refused to accept the success of sake?

Preparation Training "at the border"
A combined internal review has shown that head coach Johnny Hagen Hilberath already intervened and admonished coach and father Klaus Martin Rath. The preparatory session on Saturday was "on the border" was, he told the sporting director of the German Olympic Equestrian Committee, Dennis finders.

On the second day, counsel had "improved". "We have to have a clear understanding," said direction finder. "When it comes to aggressive riding and a steady state, we argue that, as an association."

Family council does not dispute, work in preparation for the exam recently with a method known as "Rollkur", "hyperflexion" or "long, deep and round / LDR" is known. It is based on the submission of a horse by extreme rolling the horse's neck. This horse is physically and mentally energized and restricts his field of vision. Experts speak of substantial damages. Without aggression allowed the world governing body, the "Rollkur" for less than ten minutes. This rule will, however, by the advocates rejected the traditional cavalry .

Klaus Martin Rath admitted on Tuesday against the FAZ on that had "Matthias about ten minutes a little more control" is used. For this purpose he had practiced a "slightly lower setting." The pictures show a consistent application of hyperflexion, however, from the classical ideal that the front of the horse will not come behind the vertical, deviated extremely. "The stallion stands at stud," said Rath, "he has a proud self-confidence."

For less rigid control in the twelve years of Totila had done in the past insults and get lower grades, from the European Championship 2011 was returned without a single medal counsel. In his world-record checks Totila was Matthias Rath ridden predecessor Edward Gal. Gal is a member of the Dutch dressage school, their track record on the - by the "Rollkur" to be achieved - performance is based

"There are also the guiding principle that the rider's horse riding its way not to impose," said Klaus Martin Rath. "The horse has become so big. He has been trained for six or seven years so it knows the work, so it must go with you a bit. "

Applying the "Rollkur" means a complete reversal of the Kronberger family dressage. Just two years ago had the 27-year-old rider, trainer and his father and his step-mother and co-owner Ann-Kathrin Totilas Linsenhoff condemns hyperflexion harsh.

In an open letter dated 3 February 2010 to the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) states: "If you accept riding in hyperflexion / LDR method as a training method to legitimize, you want to aggressive riding. In contrast, we protest in the strongest! "

Today Klaus Martin Rath weakens this opinion. "It is his life apprentice," he says. "If we had said two years ago, someone that Totila would come to us, we would eventually also claims that it was only a dream."

Humane Society: Development in "completely wrong direction"
The German Animal Protection Association on the other hand insists on its position. Which was to be seen in the photos "method to not tolerate" it says in a statement. The riding was developing into a "completely wrong direction." The Humane Society urges that "this practice is generally to be avoided". In a general statement that hyperflexion is compared to a "police control". "Totilas is not an isolated case."

Then again relies equestrian official peg. Just a "single case" if it were. With the classic riding advice was not progressed with Totila. DF refers to other German combinations - Helen Langehanenberg with Damon Hill and Kristina Sprehe with Desperados - who proved that a basic education on the basis of the classical theory could lead also to brilliant results. Rath had won both the Grand Prix at Hagen and the freestyle with top-scores.

Already one quarter reports had put the industry into turmoil, the Dutch coach Sjef Janssen will bond to the Olympic Games in London Totilas new coach. After the current conversion training but do not put Janssen, father says Rath. "We have learned through trial and error," he says. "Now no one can say more, Matthias was the only passenger of Totila."
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Google Translate makes for wonderful reading, even if it doesn't make much sense :D
The gist is, that Rath & Co were greatly opposed to rollkur and now they are looking a bit daft :p
 
martlin said:
Thanks marydoll for the link, I know what rollkur is, what I fail to see is, from a horse's perspective, how deliberate hyperflexion is worse than accidental one :)
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:confused: :eek:
faint2.gif


I sincerely hope this is a provocative comment. ;)
 
amandap said:
:confused: :eek:
faint2.gif


I sincerely hope this is a provocative comment. ;)
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No, honestly, tell me? Apart from the moral issue of harming your horse and the human emotions attached to it. As I said, from a horse's point of view, what is the difference?

ETS: maybe I should expand a bit, and do forgive me for moving onto a bit different ground: In SJ, rapping is illegal practice, right? But last time I checked ;) having absolutely no eye for a stride and repeatedly presenting a horse too deep is not illegal, just unfortunate :p... The end result is pretty much the same, though.
 
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While the damage remains the same in both camps, one is done with intent, and the knowledge that research has shown damage can be done both physically and mentally to the horse. While it doesnt excuse the fact that hyperflexion, intentional or not occurs at any level, educated riders imo should know better.
 
marydoll said:
While the damage remains the same in both camps, one is done with intent, and the knowledge that research has shown damage can be done both physically and mentally to the horse. While it doesnt excuse the fact that hyperflexion, intentional or not occurs at any level, educated riders imo should know better.
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Well, yes, it's all very true, but the INTENTION is a human thing...
Just for the record, I am not a rollkur advocate, I am just interested in the human reasoning in all this :)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TLyfb6EbfM Get hold of a copy of this DVD.

Here's vid of a study showing some of the effects of hyperflexion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljcsuudd4&feature=related

Horses, if you watch them and ride them without force will only put themselves into hyperflexion momentarily... wonder why?

martlin said:
No, honestly, tell me? Apart from the moral issue of harming your horse and the human emotions attached to it. As I said, from a horse's point of view, what is the difference?
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See above and also it's a matter of a) choice. b) comfort/discomfort.
Forcing hyperflexion puts the horse in an uncomfortable position where oxygen is probably deprived, he can't see clearly and cannot escape due to pain from bit from which there is also no escape with crank nose band and rider hauling for all his/her might. A horse wouldn't hold itself like that out of choice! lol

Sorry op, gone off topic a bit.
 
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amandap said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TLyfb6EbfM Get hold of a copy of this DVD.

Here's vid of a study showing some of the effects of hyperflexion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljcsuudd4&feature=related

Horses, if you watch them and ride them without force will only put themselves into hyperflexion momentarily... wonder why?


See above and also it's a matter of a) choice. b) comfort/discomfort.
Forcing hyperflexion puts the horse in an uncomfortable position where oxygen is probably deprived, he can't see clearly and cannot escape due to pain from bit from which there is also no escape with crank nose band and rider hauling for all his/her might. A horse wouldn't hold itself like that out of choice! lol

Sorry op, gone off topic a bit.
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Ahem, I think I need to clarify a bit more: by accidental hyperflexion, I didn't mean that the horse puts itself there, but that the rider unintentionally holds the horse there :) As in, by bad/unskilled riding rather than deliberate attempt at rollkur. I thought that my digression into SJ clarified, but obviously not :o
 
martlin said:
I always wonder how rollkur is very bad, but being very, very crap at maintaining a good contact with horse's mouth is excusable... I don't think it makes a lot of difference to the horse if the hyperflexion is intentional or not, I think I would even go further and say that in the case of deliberate RK, there at least will be a release at some point :eek:
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Have you been watching me ride or summat :eek: ;)

I know what you're saying I think. Cruelty committed in ignorance is every bit as bad as deliberate cruelty in my book. I am not particularly keen on rolkur but I also am not particularly keen on watching people try to saw their horses head off when I go to unaffiliated dressage. I'm not going to get outraged about one more than the other as they're just as bad as each other IMHO
 
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