Opinions please is it just me?

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angel7

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So I dont "do" social media, instagram or facebook or follow any influencer rubbish but I do watch a bit of Matte Harnacke's youtube channel as I've liked watching the progress of his horses and the training methods of Jesse. However I a bit (insert screwed up unhappy face) at the last couple of videos about his lovely stallion Emporium.

and
I know he loves his horses, wants the best for them and spares no expense in keeping them at their best but I have to worry about the ethics of what I'm seeing. He's putting himself out there so I don't see the problem in talking about it. I really wonder who is advising him...
I'm seeing a bilateral lameness behind with significant shortening of stride, no overtracking, abnormal leg flight behind resulting in odd musculature development of the hindquarters (big bulge in the right hind) and general stiffness through the back. The front hooves are extremely long and upright (tennessee walker anyone?) with a sheared heel/ deep thrush apparent on the left front. The corrective shoeing looks positively good for nothing and the crack on the inside of the hoof should the least of Matt's worries.
The front feet are loading unevenly (starting to point outwards) when they used to be straight, to obviously take the load of the hinds but they are still camped out to try and alleviate some form of pain.
I don't find it acceptable that a horse that cannot stand squarely and normally is being ridden and worked in a program to "cure" it. Calling it part of a treatment regime doesn't make this sit right with me.
To me the horse is looking like a cut and shut, the back end completely disconnected from the front.

I think the horse is in pain but is as stoic as they come so carries on.
I know he's doing all this under vets supervision but I don't think my vets wouldn't support this methodology. Matt uses the aquatrainer aswell which I think needs to be used very carefully and can cause as many issues as it solves.
I know some issues DO need to be worked to improve them ie fusing an arthritic hock or freeing up the SI joint.
Matt couldn't keep his other horse Sureno sound, but he is now thriving barefoot with his new owner.
I fear Emporium will end up the same...
Am I being a judgy keyboard warrior?
I havent made any comments on his channel.
 
The fact he sold the other horse when it was lame meant I've not watched another video since. It was totally irresponsible and sent a horrible message to his younger viewers. I don't think his competition horses have a very nice life at all. Kept entire for no real reason, very, very limited turnout and worked mainly on a surface in a tight frame. Sounds like the feet are a big issue as well now.

For what its worth, I wouldn't comment either. You will just be jumped on by his followers.
 
I wasn’t impressed when sureno was sold lame and the feet are too tall and contracted in the new one. I’m Facebook “friends” with the guy that has sureno now, he’s looking so much better.

I think traditionally PREs were shod with tall hoof walls, I don’t like it and mine is barefoot and I’m keeping her that way. But it is a thing. I was advised to get her feet like that and shod for getting her graded for breeding.
 
My last PRE had those same hooves and had issues with quarter cracks while wearing all sorts of fancy and pressure relieving shoes. Ultimately he ended up unshod, the crack grew out, his hoof shape improved (as much as it realistically could), and we never looked back.

PRE's typically do have a more upright hoof, and for reasons that actually can make sense, but some are too extreme, IMO. My current PRE has a hoof shape that is very different from my last, but he was born and raised (well, for the first year, anyway) in Germany, and I think that makes a difference. Every horse I've gotten from Spain has been shod on all 4 as a default, and had very upright hooves. Due to the terrain there and their conformation, the hoof shape makes sense, but again, not when it gets too extreme!

A lot of PRE's, especially stallions, are huge in the neck, and I don't like when they get too extreme. None of mine have been like that, but still had nice necks. I just don't like when the neck is ridiculously large but it is a "thing" and coveted by many.

As for keeping them entire, that's quite common in the Spanish horse world, partially because these horses are still quite sensible to handle as stallions, and there is the potential to lose "presence" when you geld them. Some also believe they'll lose some of that big neck/build and grow taller. I'm not saying whether or not I agree with any of this, but it's just what I've seen and heard. Historically they were kept entire, again, due to presence I think, and the fact that they were gifts to nobility such as kings. A king should be gifted and should ride a stallion, but some kings weren't the best riders or the best at anything horse, so rideable and amenable stallions were needed.

I don't think Emporio looks sound, and he looks worse than I've seen from his earlier days, unfortunately.

He is more of a leg mover, so naturally has more knee action and is still in the back, but that aside, his hindend doesn't look right. I do feel that due to some aspects of his conformation and movement, he may be prone to more arthritic ailments. So I would not be surprised to see arthritic changes in this horse.

I have mixed feelings re Matt and the sale of his other stallion. On the one hand Matt accepted that the horse couldn't do the job that he wanted him to do, and recognized he could be happier or better suited for someone with different goals, and a different style. On the other hand, it might look like he simply got rid of a lame horse. However, he ultimately found him what appears to be a suitable new home, and did screen this new owner. The horse did end up in what appears to be a good place. So, I don't think the horse really "lost" here or that he was simply dumping him off on someone because he was lame.

I get that it's not the best message to simply get rid of a horse because the horse is lame, but I think he went about it in an alright way in that he was quite transparent about it and did his due diligence when finding a new owner.
 
I do always remember j1ffy saying when her pre went back to Spain working in soft surfaces his hooves became taller again.

more foot does tend to = more action wherever the more is added. I find quite a lot of dressage horses seem to have taller hooves than I would expect.
 
That horse hardly moves his hind legs he doesn't even track up in walk, I've got an 18 and 19 year old that over track in walk and look less stiff and they both have hock arthritis!
 
I’m not in a position to pass any professional comment ,but to me Emporio does not look right behind and I can’t understand why he is being asked to take more weight behind.
It comes across to me that Matt is a caring owner and believes that he is doing his best for his horse in following the advice of professionals, - perhaps it’s me ,but I can’t understand their approach.
As regards to him selling on his other horse, I also think that he did absolutely the right thing by the horse. I don’t see it as “getting rid” of the horse, more that he recognised the horse needed a different sort of lifestyle, and he seems to have made a good choice. I have loaned, sold, and retired horses that have not been suitable for a variety of reasons as I’m sure a lot of people have. It is in the best interest of the horse to have a suitable home and we, as responsible owners, are the only ones that can make that choice for them.
 
I definitely side-eyed Matt when he first posted about the other stallion being for sale, but he obviously put a lot of care into making sure that the horse ended up somewhere better for it than what Matt could provide, and supposedly the horse is doing great now, so I don't think he should be judged for that. He was very open about wanting the horse to have a non-competition horse style of living and that's what has happened.

Has he actually posted about what is wrong with Emporio (except behind a pay-wall)? It doesn't make for great watching but fair enough he is taking advice from one of the best rated vets in Europe
 
angel7 said:
So I dont "do" social media, instagram or facebook or follow any influencer rubbish but I do watch a bit of Matte Harnacke's youtube channel as I've liked watching the progress of his horses and the training methods of Jesse. However I a bit (insert screwed up unhappy face) at the last couple of videos about his lovely stallion Emporium.

and
I know he loves his horses, wants the best for them and spares no expense in keeping them at their best but I have to worry about the ethics of what I'm seeing. He's putting himself out there so I don't see the problem in talking about it. I really wonder who is advising him...
I'm seeing a bilateral lameness behind with significant shortening of stride, no overtracking, abnormal leg flight behind resulting in odd musculature development of the hindquarters (big bulge in the right hind) and general stiffness through the back. The front hooves are extremely long and upright (tennessee walker anyone?) with a sheared heel/ deep thrush apparent on the left front. The corrective shoeing looks positively good for nothing and the crack on the inside of the hoof should the least of Matt's worries.
The front feet are loading unevenly (starting to point outwards) when they used to be straight, to obviously take the load of the hinds but they are still camped out to try and alleviate some form of pain.
I don't find it acceptable that a horse that cannot stand squarely and normally is being ridden and worked in a program to "cure" it. Calling it part of a treatment regime doesn't make this sit right with me.
To me the horse is looking like a cut and shut, the back end completely disconnected from the front.

I think the horse is in pain but is as stoic as they come so carries on.
I know he's doing all this under vets supervision but I don't think my vets wouldn't support this methodology. Matt uses the aquatrainer aswell which I think needs to be used very carefully and can cause as many issues as it solves.
I know some issues DO need to be worked to improve them ie fusing an arthritic hock or freeing up the SI joint.
Matt couldn't keep his other horse Sureno sound, but he is now thriving barefoot with his new owner.
I fear Emporium will end up the same...
Am I being a judgy keyboard warrior?
I havent made any comments on his channel.
Click to expand...

Never heard of the guy. Took a peak at the videos and never want to hear of him again.

Poor horse.
.
 
I think Matt means well, but doesn't get the best advice, even though he gets advice from the best, if that makes sense.

I think many others have been where he is, but haven't publicized it. I think with him, sometimes, he just doesn't know. I know many owners that can't tell if/when they're horse is lame unless it's literally head bobbing in 3 legs. It's just...beyond them for whatever reason(s).

I do think that PSG at 7 is a big ask, and there are some holes in his training for sure.

I'm not his #1 fan or anything, but it's hard when you're receiving and going by the vets advice, and trusting them as a professional. Then it turns out that the approach taken, actually wasn't the best thing for the horse. It's not as if he's entirely making up a plan on his own. So I do give him some credit for trying to use a good vet.

I think he has a lot to learn and he just doesn't know what he doesn't know. Unfortunately he is in the public eye, with many followers, including some that idolize him.

Still though, with the amount of video he takes and for the level he claims he rides at, he should see and feel that his horse isn't right.
 
He's a typical horse owner in that he's relying on the professionals around him to help his horse, except the advice those professionals are giving doesn't seem logical imo. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing anything with this horse but groundwork. When you've got this sort of pathological movement, surely a bit of walking out in hand and lunging cannot prepare the horse for restarting ridden work in a healthy way?
 
Never heard of this chap, but I have been following Lockie Phillips, who now has Sureno. I've even booked a (free) 30 minute consultation with him to chat about Fin. He seems to have a way with horses who are a bit weird. It would be better if I could beam him to Scotland, but I take what I can get.

The stallion on Matt's video looks very off behind.
 
Caol Ila said:
Never heard of this chap, but I have been following Lockie Phillips, who now has Sureno. I've even booked a (free) 30 minute consultation with him to chat about Fin. He seems to have a way with horses who are a bit weird. It would be better if I could beam him to Scotland, but I take what I can get.

The stallion on Matt's video looks very off behind.
Click to expand...

Ooh, that's interesting. I'd be interested to hear how that goes!
 
Caol Ila said:
Never heard of this chap, but I have been following Lockie Phillips, who now has Sureno. I've even booked a (free) 30 minute consultation with him to chat about Fin. He seems to have a way with horses who are a bit weird. It would be better if I could beam him to Scotland, but I take what I can get.

The stallion on Matt's video looks very off behind.
Click to expand...
Another one who'd be interested to hear what he makes of Fin. A friend of mine did a clinic with him (on my envious recommendation) and really rated it.
 
I don't follow Matt, but I had a watch of the videos. I'm shocked that the vet's advice was to do such collected work, in a double bridle at canter, only 3 weeks after treatment? The horse looked really short and stiff behind and like it could do with being turned away for 6 months to rest.

He comes across as caring a lot about his horses, but I think that the vets have advised him terribly, and can't help but wonder if his dressage aspirations have taken precedence over everything else.
 
I do think the vet is advising him terribly but in some countries equine veterinary medicine is terrible. uk has one of the best systems and horse are diagnosed quickly and they get the right treatment. In some countries it very basic so loads of people go round riding lame horse and a lot of people can’t afford big vet bills. the uk is lucky to have equine insurance that will cover any vet bills but it doesn’t exist in any other countries. So I think it’s easy to criticise these people without knowing the full story these people genuinely care for their horse and think they are doing the best for their horses.
 
Lexi 123 said:
I do think the vet is advising him terribly but in some countries equine veterinary medicine is terrible. uk has one of the best systems and horse are diagnosed quickly and they get the right treatment. In some countries it very basic so loads of people go round riding lame horse and a lot of people can’t afford big vet bills. the uk is lucky to have equine insurance that will cover any vet bills but it doesn’t exist in any other countries. So I think it’s easy to criticise these people without knowing the full story these people genuinely care for their horse and think they are doing the best for their horses.
Click to expand...

He is hardly struggling for a good vet - he is using Equitom in Belgium which is probably one of the highest rated equine veterinary centres in the world.

I do wonder if he has perhaps taken a few liberties in understanding the vets advice - I was very surprised to see counter canter serpentines and flying changes included in his ride.
 
I'm not sure that the advice is much different than what many UK vets would say. However my brain screams that the horse was overloading the hocks, SI and lumbars, the vet's own words, so they make him supposedly pain free for a period, so the rider can go back to the exact same work (after a short period where he might work them a little differently, but that canter work is not corrective) that caused him to overload in the first place. And that neck is just weird.

Locking looks to be everything he says he is, I know his saddle fitter very well, I think he's the real deal.

Dressage has gone wrong when wealthy young men/women can run a barn full of horses without a master, a mentor continuing his training in the art of riding and caring for horses. I know it's normal now but it is in no way in the interest of the horse.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Dressage has gone wrong for a while. At SICAB and MCI Europeans competitors were doping the horses up constantly to keep them sound for competing ?
Click to expand...

Oh I've long stopped watching for those sorts of reasons, but this behind the scenes look just makes it all real and shows just how fundamental the change in the industry has been over thekast 50 odd years.
 
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