OTTB that loses topline quickly and has a huge belly and evident ribs

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mariaandefe

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Hi all.

Following my last thread I would like to address this conformation issue my OTTB has. I don’t think it’s a conformation issue, but everyone around me is addressing to it as a conformation issue.

My OTTB loses top line and muscle in general insanely quick all it takes is a week off work and decreased protein.

He also has evident rids and a hay belly, it doesn’t look nice nor is it healthy for his breed. He has long thin legs and then just a huge hay belly…

So I would like to understand what underlying issue this could indicate

Is it gut issues? Is it weak core muscle? Any other ideas?
 
It can be from a variety of things. Mine is naturally shaped like an egg with legs because he has a well sprung ribcage, but his ribs aren't visible. That's conformation, but losing condition isn't.

The last time I had a similar situation with an ex-racer it was about getting his gut in order. First we made sure it wasn't due to parasites/worms. Then he was on ulcer treatment for about 30 something days. Then he stayed on a gut supplement with prebiotics, probiotics, and gut soothing ingredients. After that, he blossomed.

He was always on a higher protein higher fat feed (but a "normal" serving amount) with unlimited forage.

So I'd strongly consider gut issues. Of course correct work is important too. Building top line and core takes proper nutrition and proper work. Neither will matter so much if the gut is a mess though. So it's worth looking into, IMO.

What is he eating at the moment?
 
mariaandefe said:
Hi all.

Following my last thread I would like to address this conformation issue my OTTB has. I don’t think it’s a conformation issue, but everyone around me is addressing to it as a conformation issue.

My OTTB loses top line and muscle in general insanely quick all it takes is a week off work and decreased protein.

He also has evident rids and a hay belly, it doesn’t look nice nor is it healthy for his breed. He has long thin legs and then just a huge hay belly…

So I would like to understand what underlying issue this could indicate

Is it gut issues? Is it weak core muscle? Any other ideas?
Click to expand...
one of mine (not a TB) had hives very badly, lack of top line and a belly. He was 12 and had cushings (PPID) he went onto the medicine, the hives went and never came back and the rest of him came back to normal.

the other thing I have experienced in causing a huge hay belly (different horse) is grass (or possibly vegetation) ie causing bloating. I had to remove that horse completely from grass, give him horsehage and the hay belly went very quickly. Put him back on grass and back the hay belly came. So in that sort of case it would be gut. Does your horse pass gas normally.

As mentioned above you have dealt with any possible worm problem?

your description doesn't sound like conformation it sounds more like a problem he has.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
It can be from a variety of things. Mine is naturally shaped like an egg with legs because he has a well sprung ribcage, but his ribs aren't visible. That's conformation, but losing condition isn't.

The last time I had a similar situation with an ex-racer it was about getting his gut in order. First we made sure it wasn't due to parasites/worms. Then he was on ulcer treatment for about 30 something days. Then he stayed on a gut supplement with prebiotics, probiotics, and gut soothing ingredients. After that, he blossomed.

He was always on a higher protein higher fat feed (but a "normal" serving amount) with unlimited forage.

So I'd strongly consider gut issues. Of course correct work is important too. Building top line and core takes proper nutrition and proper work. Neither will matter so much if the gut is a mess though. So it's worth looking into, IMO.

What is he eating at the moment?
Click to expand...
Of course! I completely understand.

He is currently on an elimination diet because he’s broken out in hives, so now that you say this I’m now considering gut issues the root of the problem of both his condition and hives.
Ah, forgot to mention that i live in Turkey so we only have 2 types of hay here (meadow and alfalfa) and the best type of feed we have here is Red Mills or Saracen, the rest is awful turkish brand pelleted feed from the cheapest ingredients.

He’s currently on oats, meadow hay and water, and he looks awful but now i’ll be looking into gut issues.
I worm him every 2-3 months so i don’t know, im leaning towards gut issues..
 
paddy555 said:
one of mine (not a TB) had hives very badly, lack of top line and a belly. He was 12 and had cushings (PPID) he went onto the medicine, the hives went and never came back and the rest of him came back to normal.

the other thing I have experienced in causing a huge hay belly (different horse) is grass (or possibly vegetation) ie causing bloating. I had to remove that horse completely from grass, give him horsehage and the hay belly went very quickly. Put him back on grass and back the hay belly came. So in that sort of case it would be gut. Does your horse pass gas normally.

As mentioned above you have dealt with any possible worm problem?

your description doesn't sound like conformation it sounds more like a problem he has.
Click to expand...
Mine is currently experiencing hives too…However, he has looked like this for a while now, hopefully it’s not cushings…

I worm him every 2-3 months, so i don’t think it’s that…
 
i must also state that most horses here in turkey have a similar problem, my horse isn’t as bad as the other horses in turkey. i’m the only person who wants to resolve this problem so it seems 🥲 it’s doesn’t matter whether it’s a riding school horse or a livery horse, they all seem to have this problem and only a small portion of warmbloods have nicely defined muscles.

and also it seems my horse is more ribby on his left side rather than his right side, his right side is much less ribby…
 
Ulcers? He sounds a bit like my OTTB who had a big hay belly and was ribby, he has lost lots of topline too since he stopped racing at the start of the year. Had him assessed and he had grade 2/3 ulcers. He’s had his treatment now and putting on weight well, the topline will hopefully come with more work now he’s recovering from the ulcers. Oh he also had a positive tapeworm test in October which I think contributed to his weight loss.

Something like 80-90% of racehorses have them so it’s very possible yours does too. Has the vet seen him?
 
Bobthecob15 said:
Ulcers? He sounds a bit like my OTTB who had a big hay belly and was ribby, he has lost lots of topline too since he stopped racing at the start of the year. Had him assessed and he had grade 2/3 ulcers. He’s had his treatment now and putting on weight well, the topline will hopefully come with more work now he’s recovering from the ulcers. Oh he also had a positive tapeworm test in October which I think contributed to his weight loss.

Something like 80-90% of racehorses have them so it’s very possible yours does too. Has the vet seen him?
Click to expand...
he’s currently on omeprazole tablets, i’m 99% sure he does have ulcers, although as i mentioned the vets here are pretty useless, they think he is just ‘ticklish’ or had sensitive skin. the best thing i can do for him is get a pack of gastrogard from england unfortunately. i will try to dig with another vet who i hope will help.
how did he test for tapeworms? faecal test? or something else?
 
I appreciate this is Turkey and resources are more limited. If a lot look like this is there an overall worm problem there and resistance to certain wormers. In the UK I would do a worm count (FEC) and send it to somewhere like Westgate. I would also test for Tapeworm with an equisal saliva test and do an encysted worm test using a blood sample.
I don't know if any of that is possible.
Over here were are encouraged not to worm them because of the resistance problem so we test for everything and only treat as required. If you could get a blood test you could also use that to test for cushings. (no idea how to do this abroad but I'm sure someone will have experience)
 
Could be a resistance to certain wormers, or people just aren't worming and horses have worms.

It'd be worth testing this horse though. You can't detect all worms with a FEC, but it's a good place to start.
 
paddy555 said:
I appreciate this is Turkey and resources are more limited. If a lot look like this is there an overall worm problem there and resistance to certain wormers. In the UK I would do a worm count (FEC) and send it to somewhere like Westgate. I would also test for Tapeworm with an equisal saliva test and do an encysted worm test using a blood sample.
I don't know if any of that is possible.
Over here were are encouraged not to worm them because of the resistance problem so we test for everything and only treat as required. If you could get a blood test you could also use that to test for cushings. (no idea how to do this abroad but I'm sure someone will have experience)
Click to expand...
hi,

could you explain to me the resistance to worming? and if what wormers do you use? i had a normal blood test and a biochemistry test for him last week and everything is fine and in normal range.
very interesting to hear thanks!
 
mariaandefe said:
hi,

could you explain to me the resistance to worming? and if what wormers do you use? i had a normal blood test and a biochemistry test for him last week and everything is fine and in normal range.
very interesting to hear thanks!
Click to expand...

Top 10 Ways to slow resistance

www.westgatelabs.co.uk www.westgatelabs.co.uk

if you look on this site there is a lot of info (in the info zone)

we have a big problem with this in the UK as there are no new wormers in the pipeline and we are getting resistance to some of the existing ones.

In my area we appear to resistance to Febendizole ie Panacur Guard. For some it is resistance to ivermectin ie eqvalan and I believe we are getting to resistance to moxidectin (equest) that is scary as there will be nothing left.

the westgate site gives you a so much info but it will take you a while to get through it all.

I personally use equest once a year to deal with encysted worms. I do it now (mid Jan)
You can test for encysted by a blood test but I don't think it is a normal ie routine blood test. .

If I have a high FEC count I use eqvalan for most of the year. Apparently only 20% of horses carry worms and need dealing with. I have 2 of those 20%.

I'm not saying in any way you have a worm problem but if several others are like your horse and people where you are don't test regularly then it MAY be something worth looking at'

I would guess many on here deal with worms in the way that I do (which is the way our vets and labs such as Westgate recommend.) It is constantly pushed down our throats we must worm count to avoid resistance. Most of us are in the UK.

I think if many of us had a horse with a large hay belly and the other symptoms you describe (not hives) then it would be the first thing we would check and probably the first thing our vets would suggest.
 
paddy555 said:

Top 10 Ways to slow resistance

www.westgatelabs.co.uk www.westgatelabs.co.uk

if you look on this site there is a lot of info (in the info zone)

we have a big problem with this in the UK as there are no new wormers in the pipeline and we are getting resistance to some of the existing ones.

In my area we appear to resistance to Febendizole ie Panacur Guard. For some it is resistance to ivermectin ie eqvalan and I believe we are getting to resistance to moxidectin (equest) that is scary as there will be nothing left.

the westgate site gives you a so much info but it will take you a while to get through it all.

I personally use equest once a year to deal with encysted worms. I do it now (mid Jan)
You can test for encysted by a blood test but I don't think it is a normal ie routine blood test. .

If I have a high FEC count I use eqvalan for most of the year. Apparently only 20% of horses carry worms and need dealing with. I have 2 of those 20%.

I'm not saying in any way you have a worm problem but if several others are like your horse and people where you are don't test regularly then it MAY be something worth looking at'

I would guess many on here deal with worms in the way that I do (which is the way our vets and labs such as Westgate recommend.) It is constantly pushed down our throats we must worm count to avoid resistance. Most of us are in the UK.

I think if many of us had a horse with a large hay belly and the other symptoms you describe (not hives) then it would be the first thing we would check and probably the first thing our vets would suggest.
Click to expand...
I talked with a Westgate lab worker and my father is able to buy a couple tests from them and he’ll fly over and hand them over to me.

Which tests would you suggest I do/buy?
 
CanteringCarrot said:
If you can get it done, I would. From what I can recall a FEC isn't very reliable when it comes to tapes.

I'd also suggest some continuing gut support, if you can get it, while coming off of/being off of the Omeprazole.
Click to expand...
Which tests would you recommend from the Westage lab I do/buy?
As well as, he has 28 tablets of Omeprazole, however due to the vets being a bit useless I’m not sure how much I have to keep him on the Omeprazole. I have kept him on 28 tablets for around 2-3 weeks now
 

Error Page

www.westgatelabs.co.uk www.westgatelabs.co.uk

I would suggest this one. This pack will give you 4 tests. In the UK most would use these to test say beg. Mar, beg June, Beg Sept and beg Dec.
that would mean we would have a reasonable idea of the worm status through out the year. Most would then use equest wormer in Jan to deal with any encysted (or blood test to make sure we didn't have any)

I don't know what worms horses are prone to in Turkey.
 
paddy555 said:

Error Page

www.westgatelabs.co.uk www.westgatelabs.co.uk

I would suggest this one. This pack will give you 4 tests. In the UK most would use these to test say beg. Mar, beg June, Beg Sept and beg Dec.
that would mean we would have a reasonable idea of the worm status through out the year. Most would then use equest wormer in Jan to deal with any encysted (or blood test to make sure we didn't have any)

I don't know what worms horses are prone to in Turkey.
Click to expand...
Normal blood test? Would the total WBC count be elevated? or lymphocytes?

Thank you soooo much for your help!
 

AT İSTANBUL Veteriner Kliniği

Atlar için yüksek standartlarda muayene, tedavi ve kaliteli hizmet. At severler için eğitici seminer ve kurslar. İstanbul ve çevresine 7 gün 24 saat hizmet.
www.atistanbul.com www.atistanbul.com

In the UK vets as well as labs do FEC counts. I see this one does as well. It may be the case you could get a count done there. They would have more knowledge about parasites in Turkey.
 
paddy555 said:

AT İSTANBUL Veteriner Kliniği

Atlar için yüksek standartlarda muayene, tedavi ve kaliteli hizmet. At severler için eğitici seminer ve kurslar. İstanbul ve çevresine 7 gün 24 saat hizmet.
www.atistanbul.com www.atistanbul.com

In the UK vets as well as labs do FEC counts. I see this one does as well. It may be the case you could get a count done there. They would have more knowledge about parasites in Turkey.
Click to expand...
How did you find this clinic? Wow! I’ve never heard of this clinic before

I sent them a message hopefully they give me some sort of answer soon.
Thank you so much!
 
paddy555 said:

AT İSTANBUL Veteriner Kliniği

Atlar için yüksek standartlarda muayene, tedavi ve kaliteli hizmet. At severler için eğitici seminer ve kurslar. İstanbul ve çevresine 7 gün 24 saat hizmet.
www.atistanbul.com www.atistanbul.com

In the UK vets as well as labs do FEC counts. I see this one does as well. It may be the case you could get a count done there. They would have more knowledge about parasites in Turkey.
Click to expand...
Hi, called the clinic and they don’t exist anymore unfortunately. So i have rerouted to westgate again. Could you please tell me when they send the results of the redworm and tapeworm tests?
thank you
 
mariaandefe said:
Hi, called the clinic and they don’t exist anymore unfortunately. So i have rerouted to westgate again. Could you please tell me when they send the results of the redworm and tapeworm tests?
thank you
Click to expand...
that's a pity

westgate send you a container, you fill it and then send it back. You need to post it immediately so it is as fresh as possible. They will send results by e mail( or text I believe) and you usually get the results within a couple of days of them receiving the sample

I don't know how the post is from Turkey but I do mine on a Monday and send 1st class. You don't want them getting the samples on say a Friday nor definitely over the week end.

If you are going to do this from Turkey I would suggest you contact Westgate and explain it is from Turkey and ask them to look out for them.

if you google "horse vets Turkey" then there are a couple of others that may help you.

ETA
if you buy the equisal kit from Westgate then it is returned in a separate envelope they provide to the lab who deal with tapeworm saliva tests. That often takes a few days more and I usually get t he results in 3/4 days or so.
 
paddy555 said:
that's a pity

westgate send you a container, you fill it and then send it back. You need to post it immediately so it is as fresh as possible. They will send results by e mail( or text I believe) and you usually get the results within a couple of days of them receiving the sample

I don't know how the post is from Turkey but I do mine on a Monday and send 1st class. You don't want them getting the samples on say a Friday nor definitely over the week end.

If you are going to do this from Turkey I would suggest you contact Westgate and explain it is from Turkey and ask them to look out for them.

if you google "horse vets Turkey" then there are a couple of others that may help you.

ETA
if you buy the equisal kit from Westgate then it is returned in a separate envelope they provide to the lab who deal with tapeworm saliva tests. That often takes a few days more and I usually get t he results in 3/4 days or so.
Click to expand...
i talked with westgate on the phone yesterday, they told me as long as you send the samples within 6 days then they will still be eligible for testing. my dad will fly on the 15th with the samples, and fly back on the 22nd. i will take the samples from my horse early morning 22nd and he will fly back and send them first class on the 23rd through royal mail like they stated they wanted, so i think if i send them 1st class on the 23rd then i think they should get to westgate in time hopefully.

with the turkish vets…i know nearly every single vet here 😂 and they are all hopeless and useless i must say 😂 so when you linked the clinic above i was so surprised! but unfortunately the vet moved to germany
 
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