Our public footpath - can anyone help??

[leonh]

hello and thanks for reading. its a bit long and garberish but please, if you get the jist or have any advice or positive comments, i'd love to hear from you.

i am looking for any help or advice or any legal experience (if you've been there before) so i can divert or even ''close down'' our public footpath.

we live in a farm in west sussex. we have 7 horses - polo ponies, a labrador, a jack russell, 2 farm cats and two house cats (old) and 10 free range hens. ALL our animals, including the horses, are super friendly and will come and say hello and stand / sit / perch for fuss. non have ever bitten, kicked, snarled, pecked, scratched or shown the slightest bit of aggression. All our animals are brought up with noise, kids, dogs, and chinooks, balloons going overhead.

our farm is down a half mile private lane off a busy-ish country road, this private lane is owned by us and maintained by us. there are also 3 other cottages that run into this lane. the owners of the cottages have a right of way on our lane to get to their houses. Our farm is surrounded on all sides by grazing land of some 30 acres. at the corner of our land ajoining our neighbours farm, a public footpath brings you onto our land, past our pond, through our gates, straight across our front garden, up our drive, 20ft past our outside swimming pool, 2ft past our kitchen window, then turns across our front garden into our 'winter paddock' (of 15 acres) goes alongside our hedge, to join a footpath behind our farm/land and onto another neighbours. the footpath is probably 220 yards long.

three times this year so far some twozzer has left the gate open so all our horses have escaped. thankfully one of our neighbours has phoned me to say "a herd of horses is running along the lane'' another occasion we had them in neighbours fields ... luckily each time i have caught them before they reached the main road. i asked for styles instead of hunting gates and was told ''no way'' by the council. a gate cannot be replaced by anything but a gate on a public footpath.

two of our chickens have also been mauled and died due to dog owners' dogs attacking them. we also have dog crap everywhere (we dont mind standing in our dog crap but walkers dog crap we draw the line at). the dog crap is all over the fields, garden, and one even sat and squatted as i stood next to it on the steps of the swimming pool. i have never seen a dog walker using a lead or picking up poop - and have been verbally assaulted when i asked one dude to pick up his dog crap which one of his three loose dogs did ontop of my molasses horse lick in the field. we have also had dogs leaping in our pool and folk stopping to have a chat when we were having a bbq with the kids.... at each time we have been polite ....we have lived here 43 years.

today i received a letter from the footpath council lady informing me that two people have complained that my horses are ''threatening'' as they all, all 7 of them, approached the walkers, and on one occasion they chased her dogs. the council person said that both complaint letters said the horses were lively and unpredictable and the walkers were scared .. so decided to climb through the fence and walk through our back garden, round the house to go back out the front gate. i remember this day as they also had two dogs, vizla types, who actually ran through my kitchen!!!!

i have now set the wheels in motion to re-locate the footpath to run the opposite end to my house, though the field to ajoin the footpath at the top of my farm. i have asked that it no longer comes up my driveway, past my windows etc and instead have said i will 'fence' in the footpath so no one can be scared anymore of my lifestock, no more chickens will be killed and no one can let the horses out. i have even said they can have my private lane as a footpath, adding a mile extra for the ramblers/walkers/council .. free of charge.

the council person told me today that this will be rejected as ""before walkers only walked up one side of a field, now they have to walk up three"" basically my field is a big square and i am asking that they walk around the field. .... she also told me that am am totally liable for my livestock and if they escape and cause a crash i could be sued. even if someone else has let them free.

i am all for freedom in the countryside ... but now its wearing thin. the footpath is used daily by regular walkers and dogs and occasional walkers/families/dogs on weekends. (at one stage we had a dog walker exercising his 6 dogs with a ''throw ball'' in the field!!! - when i asked him to stop as we didnt want our hay full of crap he said i should stop being such a rich b*tch and why did i hate animals??!!) .. also worth noting all walkers use our lane as footpath as the lane connects two footpaths.... even though we have a sign saying ''private lane''

help. any suggestions???? cannot move horses as its their field, cannot move chickens as no where else suitable. ... what can i do??

 

[BSJAlove]

no info but i feel for you the public are a**holes at the best of times.

 

[shadowboy]

Wow I really feel for you! Walkers sound so disrespectful. Are you allowed to electric fence a path through as long as its well signposted?

 

[SusieT]

My best suggestion, not knowing the legalities woul be to get the council to come out to survey the difficulties you are having, have walk round of the path/site and show them all your issues?

 

[tasteofchristmaschaos]

The only suggestion I can make is regarding the gate. As it can only be replaced with a a gate, can you add a small gate, big enough for people to get through but small enough so the horses can't get out/it isn't as noticable to the horses if it is left open?
I would be fuming if I were you - I would be speaking to the manager at the council and if that got nowhere speaking to a lawyer to see where you stand - particually on the issue of uncontrolled dogs killing your chickens.

 

[jinglejoys]

 

[BlizzardBudd]

poor you, some people are just not with it. i think you should make lots and lots of signs telling them to shut the gate etc. put a large gate on the lane with a sign on it. just do your best try and get the footpath changed as it seems that it goes through alot of your land and i would hate that. hope you can get it all sorted

 

[Daisychain]

Yes i quite like the electric fence idea, just make sure the public are aware it is electric and make them a walkway, which will keep your horses away from the gate and if the gate is left open at least they shouldnt get throught the electric fence.

 

[Booboos]

Horrible situation to be in. The best thing I can think of it for you to talk to a planning consultant. They will know the people working at the council office so may have a better chance of reasoning with them, but they will also know your rights and relevant legal precedents that may help you enjoy your land without intrusions from people using the footpath. I would also suggest you write a complaint letter to your council every single time you have a problem, e.g. dog out of control, fouling dog, open gates, use of the private lane, etc. Document all the infractions so that you have evidence of the scale of the problem and if possible take photos or videos of what is happening.

 

[bounce]

Can you request that the gate is replaced with a kissing gate? My council came out to replace some very old kissing gates on my footpath and suggested that a small hunting gate would be much nicer. I pointed out that both my horses are capable of opening latches and the chances of the gate being left open by walkers was significant and should that happen as I had warned the council I would sue for loss or injury of horse.
They replaced them with very nice kissing gates which are on a spring and catch so impossible to leave open.

With regards to loose dogs and using it as a play park I would suggest putting some sheep in the field if at all possible. They will have to keep the dogs on leads.

 

[Brownmare]

I can't help with rerouting footpaths, as i understand it the process is very long-winded and with little chance of success (You may be allowed to put up temporary diversions i.e. to protect crops but i'm not sure if you need permission for this)

On the other hand i can certainly help you with reining in ignorant walkers, having some experience with this myself......

1) At the farm we used to live on gates would be left open periodically and we simply hammered a fence post into the ground to stop the gate being opened any further than was necessary for a normal sized person to get through comfortably. Later on we also received from the council some return springs for the gate hinges plus slam-shut gate catches so even the most ignorant walker couldn't fail to leave a closed gate behind them

2) Install CCTV in the area where your chickens roam and if possible also pointing across the horses field. This should be obvious and highly visible with signs to point out its presence.

3) Put up signs at all points of entry onto your land saying something like "Welcome to our home, we hope you enjoy walking here but please pick up dog mess (which can cause health problems to children and animals) and keep your dogs under close control where horses and chickens are present. We would hate to be forced to shoot your dog and we would absolutely have to do this if it were chasing or scaring our animals. Have a lovely walk, signed X". You could also add to this the relevant bit of legislation that states it is legal to shoot loose dogs worrying livestock.

4) Make sure the footpath signs are absolutely clear and give no room for "interpretation". Put up more if necessary and fence in the path wherever possible.

5) It may in the end be worth the effort to provide biodegradable poo bags and a bin for dog muck at all entry points to the property. You may not like the fact that they are too lazy to pick up after themselves but lazy people need all the help they can get.

6) As a last resort, if none of the above works, you could buy several guns and cultivate a reputation locally for being a bit mad and trigger-happy. Stand in the middle of the footpath and randomly fire your gun in the air while shouting obscenities on a sunny weekend afternoon ( only kidding! This approach may make you feel better but will probably only earn you a nice padded cell and a bunch of militant Ramblers Association campaigners )

Good luck

 

[Hels_Bells]

Oh I feel for you so much. I am in a fairly similar situation. Our local town has grown much nearer to us in the past few years and the incumbents seem to think our farm is a free country park and if you ask them politely to stick to the footpaths rather than just go anywhere they like you are usually met with nasty remarks, arguments etc etc.

It seems to me that there is absolutely nothing a landowner can do to protect their own land and livestock from people like this, ESPECIALLY, where footpaths/access is involved. For example, I have looked into repeated trespass myself and really there is very little you can do about it, it's highly unlikely any charges will ever be pressed unless there is some form of criminal damage involved. We are seriously on the verge of selling up and leaving our farm which has been in our family for 150 years.

I have to say you are lucky just to have the dog poo - on our farm they pick it up and put it in a poo bag then hang it from the hedges, trees etc or just chuck it on the floor in the middle of the path, road, field.

If I were you I would either make and alternative pathway which is signposted "alternative path avoiding livestock field" etc or do what one other has suggested and get the local council out to see what can be done. But beware about alternatives, if they are in place for a number of years they then become legal footpaths themselves which cannot be moved, you could seriously devalue your land if it has too many rights of way on it and you ever came to sell it.

God I feel so sorry for you and a bit depressed as I totally empathise and it all seems to hopeless. Really good luck, I really hope you find a good solution!

 

[PeterNatt]

You will find it very difficult to get the Public Footpath diverted.

My advice would be to buy and install some metal Centrewire Self Closing gates which automatically close. You could also post and rail and Equi-fence the public footpath as this will prevent dogs getting through. (Equi-fencing is a tight knit form of sheep fencing which has been developed for equestrian use).

 

[daydreambeliever]

I'm always extra wary if i see a 'beware of the bull' sign even if there is not a single bovine in sight, that could be a cheep temporary solution that may not put off the regulars but may deter the casual weekend walkers.

I feel for you as everyone is entitled to privacy in their own home/garden. I like the sheep idea as that should encourage closer control of dogs.

 

[pardalis]

Gosh, you are patient. I am laid back but I would've lost my rag ages ago. I can't offer much advice apart from to consult a lawyer who specialises in such cases. Contact the Law Society who will point you in the right direction. Good luck

 

[Dobiegirl]

I would contact the NFU and they will give you good advise.

As these walkers/ramblers are allowing their dogs to kill your livestock(chickens) they are breaking the law. Also I believe if livestock are in the field where a footpath runs they are duty bound to keep dogs on leads.

Our neighbouring farmer no longer makes hay in his field where there is a footpath because of the dog crap, his cows wont eat it why should they.

The other day our one field which has a footpath my bil and I watched someone push through a hedge to take a short cut, my bil intercepted him and gave him a piece of his mind

 

[Dolcé]

I have pm'd you but look at the bit where I mentioned duty because I think I read it wrong. It isn't that they have a duty to consider your application but that they have a duty to consider diverting it themselves to facilitate your 'breeding or keeping of horses' without you even having to make an application. Definitely keep a log and get them out to see you to discuss.

 

[Jake10]

Sorry if I'm repeating anything - haven't read all the replies

You should be able to fence off the current foot path preferably using post and rail or electric with signs (I worked a summer with my local rights of way officers so not very knowledgeable ) one land owner was so fed up with loose dogs/ dog poo she used barbed wire (not acceptable!). As long as the fence follows the foot path on the map and the width of the path is the same or more than the height of the fence then it shouldn't be a problem. But do confirm this with the officers in your area.

Could you change the big gate for a kissing gate that should help stop loose horses?

It might be worth writing several letters/emails to your local rights of way officers until they do something. The ones I worked with didn't seem to respond unless several complaints were made as they were so busy.

 

[AndySpooner]

I had a problem similar to yours, the council and everyone else involved were useless and only concerned with walkers rights. I put in an alternative path but was careful not to block or close the original. As it was an alternative and not a divert or re route they could not stop me or object.

I then put some signs up saying beware of th bull, and caution electric fence, no bull and no electric but it encouraged walkers to use the alternative.

The ramblers association insisted on walking the original once a year just to keep it open but that was about it in the end.

 

[Kaylum]

my friend has a bull in her field and a sign saying so, nobody uses the footpath, could you put a stile and lock the gate.

 

[Clippy]

Ugh nightmare, and I know what you're going through too.

Our local Council in their wisdom replaced stiles with these ridiculous gates too Within half a day, our horses were galloping about when one went missing! Unfortunately, she trashed someones car on a local housing estate whilst trying to get back into the field through someones garden. I had to pay for the damage to the car, but I sent the invoice on to the council and told them that I was putting them on notice that they would be responsible for any further damage done by horses escaping from their gates which clearly weren't stockproof.

In the end, they modified the gates with a brick and string and a New Zealand catch and they now self close.

We have had dogs kill and injure our fancy waterfowl by straying off the path and coming into the yard and I once managed to catch one of the dogs and when the owner collected it, showed them what the dog had done. I now have a dog on a chain which reaches 2' short of the footpath and that has put people off coming too close to the farm as there is a diversion.

All I can say is heaven help you dealing with the Council, they're NOT on your side what ever you do. Laminate some alternative diversion signs and make the usual route uncomfortable so they use the diversion.

 

[Angelbones]

Sorry, haven't got time to read all replies but when my dad had this problem with stock escaping he sunk some fencing posts into the ground behind the gates so they could only open about 18" - just enough for a person to get through but not a horse. It also meant that if a gate was left open it rested against the posts instead of swinging all the way open. May be worth a try.

Eventually he did manage to get the footpath rerouted as it went all the way down through the centre of his yard which is a busy racing yard, but I don't know how he managed this, sorry.

Hope you get it sorted - play tough with the council and the 'invaders'!

 

[sms]

Until you've lived through the nightmare of these people on your land you will never understand the impact they have. When we bought our farm we couldn't see what problem we would have with the many footpaths crossing our property. Hey they would just walk through wouldn't they? WRONG! We have had people having picnics on our lawn (large groups of 20+).Our very friendly dog has been beaten by a stick for coming too close. Our young children have been photographed whilst playing in their own garden. We have had 3 vets bills due to horses being bitten. I have been verbally abused whilst with my children and called the c word, when I've asked various people to keep to the footpaths. We have dog crap and litter everywhere. Gates left open all the time resulting in my dogs being let out constantly. We have endured visits from the Police reporting dangerous dogs (they laughed when they saw how dangerous my little ball of fluff is!) We have been harrassed by council officials who are firmly on the side of the ramblers. We dread times of the year that are busy rambler days ie Easter, Christmas and most weekends. We eventually put in a lovely alternative walk. It viewed the best areas of the farm and was totally fenced so that dog walkers could let their dogs run free. We were very careful to keep all other footpaths open but used signage to explain our problems and request they consider using the alternative route. Most people used the alternative however the die hard ramblers kicked up an amazing amount of fuss even though we didn't interfere with the existing route. We had to employ a solicitor who specialised in ROW and it costs us thousands. Result being that it took 4 years and about 10K but we have the footpaths legally diverted to the outskirts of the farm so no b@gger has access near my home. We were very lucky because the councils have now had so many cuts that there is not the staff to deal with these applications anymore. You really need the help of someone professional because it is a minefield and once these people are antagonised your life can become even more hellish. We still have problems with die hard ramblers ignoring the new legal route and climbing fences to trespass all over our home. Our home is now up for sale. Good luck I really feel for you x

 

[hairycob]

If you do sign an alternative path make sure you log it with your council as a temporary access for x amount of time. You can renew this or not & it won't become permanent, it's if you allow use & don't register it as temporary it can become a problem. This was advice from a rights of way officer.

 

[perfect11s]

Its so depressing.. how things have gone, all this right to roam and lack of rights for landowners encoraging the worst scum to think they can do as they please, why have we let our county be run for benifit of the lazy, the feckless, useless, criminal or just plain spitefull, what a dump the UK is ...

 

[riding_high]

sorry i can't be of much help but i'm sure i read somewhere about footpaths have to be x amount of distance from someones home. maybe have a deeper look into it and then give that to the council.

i hope you get it sorted, the ignorant walkers should learn to respect your property.

 

[sms]

If you do sign an alternative path make sure you log it with your council as a temporary access for x amount of time. You can renew this or not & it won't become permanent, it's if you allow use & don't register it as temporary it can become a problem. This was advice from a rights of way officer.

Yes thats right you do need to be careful. Our Solicitor informed us to use the wording PERMISSIVE alternative route. We also had to ensure the sign informed people the route would be closed for at least one day a year.

 

[sms]

sorry i can't be of much help but i'm sure i read somewhere about footpaths have to be x amount of distance from someones home. maybe have a deeper look into it and then give that to the council.

i hope you get it sorted, the ignorant walkers should learn to respect your property.

I'm afraid thats not true. They can be right through your home if thats where the definitive map has them!

 

[Mike007]

Get a good profesional land agent to act for you. Also ,dont trust or believe anything the council say without getting it checked.

 

[millitiger]

you have my sympathy- we actually sold our lovely house with land which was perfect, simply because of the footpaths and the hassle and stress they caused.