Our public footpath - can anyone help??

[jools123]

Hmm Have not read the whole thread BUT what i have seems very one sided.

i nearly lost the kids 18yr old pony two winters ago when a dog chased her through two electric fences and along side the lake in heavy snow-she slipped on a concrete slab and went straight into the water 18ft deep through 2 inches of ice (she was wearing a heavyweight turn out rug with full neck) the lake has steep sides so she would not have got out on her own. unusually my husband was home and he some how managed to get her our whilst the woman stood screaming hysterically and the man just watched from the other side of the hedge. i reported this to the police as i had spoken to both the man and women about the horses chasing both the horses on the farm and the sheep on the neighbouring farm.
they dont walk there anymore!!!
But also as a dog walker i will not put my dogs on leads when in fields of livestock as they are often chased by horses and cattle when we are walking and my dogs can run faster than I and i would rather they took the chase away from me.
as a walker i have had abuse hurled at me when i am walking with 3 dogs to heel off lead and even when they are being chased by a herd of cattle-my dogs do their best to get out of the field if chased and then follow my from safety to where i exit the field where they show their deep joy at the fact we are all still alive by trying to knock me out with their enthusiasm
myself and my brother were attacked by 2 horses in a local field a couple of years ago (i mean attacked) to the extent that we had to get out of the field fast leaving a pushbike in the field-i went to speak to the owner due to the bike being in the field and had abuse hurled at me then because she did not '[I don't]want to go in with them because they were [are]dangerous'

fence the footpath off with stock fencing problem solved to a large degree as far as i can see

the dog poo would tick me off though i have to say-but the footpath would have been there longer than you

its a bit like townies moving to the country and complaining about cockerals crowing and the like

i feel after that long rant i should get of my various soap boxes and wait for the slaughter

 

[PandorasJar]

We had a similar issue on a farm locally. We padlocked the gate and explained why (lambs killed by dogs off lead) council (i believe) put up a sign reinforcing that dog owners had them on leads through the field. When this didn't work we took a dog which was off the lead and chasing sheep, bunged it in the car and called local dog pound. We were within our rights legally as dog was out of control.

Now they're on leads

Pan

 

[PandorasJar]

the dog poo would tick me off though i have to say-but the footpath would have been there longer than you

its a bit like townies moving to the country and complaining about cockerals crowing and the like

i feel after that long rant i should get of my various soap boxes and wait for the slaughter

I agree that access shouldn't be revoked unless with very good reason, however I don't agree the OP should have to put up with the problems being experienced.

It does work both ways though

Pan

 

[jools123]

leonh horses are livestock so legally sheep, horses, cattle etc makes no difference

 

[AmyMay]

leonh horses are livestock so legally sheep, horses, cattle etc makes no difference

I'm not sure horses are classed as livestock.

EDT: Just double checked. No they're not.

 

[jools123]

when the police came out after our pond had been chased in the lake i did ask if legally the farmer was within his rights to shoot the dog if it was seen worrying the horses again they said 'yes horses are classed as livestock', i asked them to tell the owners of the dogs that i would not hesitate in shooting the dog if it was seen in the fields again. so it may be worth clarrifying this point
legally dogs have to be kept under close control when on footpaths too, but they dont have to be on a lead

 

[AmyMay]

when the police came out after our pond had been chased in the lake i did ask if legally the farmer was within his rights to shoot the dog if it was seen worrying the horses again they said 'yes horses are classed as livestock', i asked them to tell the owners of the dogs that i would not hesitate in shooting the dog if it was seen in the fields again. so it may be worth clarrifying this point
legally dogs have to be kept under close control when on footpaths too, but they dont have to be on a lead

Unfortunately the policeman was wrong.

But of course, we all agree that dogs should be kept under control.

Anyway, this is a seriously old post, not sure why it's been resurrected.

 

[jools123]

I'm not sure horses are classed as livestock.

EDT: Just double checked. No they're not.

DEFRA say "The main countryside rule is - DOGS MUST NEVER WORRY LIVESTOCK. Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 the owner, and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time, will be guilty of an offence if it worries livestock on agricultural land. The dog must have been attacking or chasing livestock in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering or, in the case of females, abortion or the loss or diminution of their produce. An offence is not committed if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of 'livestock' includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds are not included."

 

[AmyMay]

But this statement doesn't come from the Defra website. Which would be your first port of call to check on the status of what is classed as livestock.

 

[Orangehorse]

If it is an old post, what happened? There is currently a consultation document out for reform of the Rights of Way laws, with the idea of making it easier and cheaper to re-route them. I must find out more and read it!

As for the OP, I would contact your local County Councillor and insist that they visit you and listen to your concerns and I would also go over the head of your local Path officer and get their Head of Department involved. Closely fencing the footpath might the the best thing to do and re-route where you can.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I'd fence the footpath off completely. I don't know why people can't grasp it's a footPATH not a footFIELD! Ie your dogs should NOT be running at liberty around the field, they should be on the path. Neither should YOU (public) be running round at liberty in the field - you should be on the path too.

Luckilly our footpath is used sensibly by the vast majority.

 

[flyingfeet]

If it was that much of a problem, I would be hiring an agency to see if they can close it

Failing that use 10ft high fence panels the whole distance, that way you don't have to see them, but will cost a small fortune.

The problem is that footpath is not a footpath, its used for leisure and so they think any land it goes through is a playing field.

We are always picking up balls / toys / rubbish from our fields, but invariably some of it gets into the hay.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

But this statement doesn't come from the Defra website. Which would be your first port of call to check on the status of what is classed as livestock.

Quote from the 1953 Dogs (protection of Livestock) ACT
3 Interpretation and supplementary provisions. .

(1)In this Act— .
“agricultural land” means land used as arable, meadow or grazing land, or for the purpose of poultry farming, pig farming, market gardens, allotments, nursery grounds or orchards; and
“livestock” means cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses, or poultry, and for the purposes of this definition “cattle” means bulls, cows, oxen, heifers or calves, “horses” includes asses and mules, and “poultry” means domestic fowls, turkeys, geese or ducks.

 

[AmyMay]

Again this is not from Defra - and is dated 1953, when horses would have been classed as livestock due to their agricultural use..........

 

[LJN]

I wonder how rights of way are dealt with in other countries such as Germany, Sandinavia etc? Having visited Germany for example, it seems there is a great deal more respect for the "fellow man" than there is over here...

I live in Spain and a couple of my friends have had landowners take pot-shots at them if the path takes them close to landowners house/sheep

Not a suggestion by the way! I cannot understand how some people think that it is acceptable to behave so badly on someone elses property, right of way or no right of way! I would be mortified to find myself next to OPs swimming pool while on a walk and would assume I was lost.

 

[Ranyhyn]

It's certainly the law my OH has in his pocket handbook. From memory.

*runs off to check before anyone who has one to hand catches me on that!!*

 

[OWLIE185]

I am sorry to hear of the problems you are having. Most walkers are responsible but there will sadly always be a minority of ones that are a nuisance.

As long as you are reasonable you will face no problems in having your footpath diverted away from your house and garden. You should also have no problem in diverting it to the edge of your fields rather than accross it.

In the first instance contact the definitive map officer of your local county council to determine the route that the public footpath in question is recorded on the definitive map and then work out where you would like the new route to be diverted to on your land. You can then ask for a diversion order and hopefully you will get what you want. Please be aware that you will not be able to plough up a public footpath that runs along the edge of a field and you will be requiredto ensure that it does not become impassable (some sections of it may require drainage/ specialist surfacing). Also any gates will have to allow the footpath to be accesable to the disabled (wheelchairs).

I hope that this helps you.

 

[flowerlady]

The only suggestion I can make is regarding the gate. As it can only be replaced with a a gate, can you add a small gate, big enough for people to get through but small enough so the horses can't get out/it isn't as noticable to the horses if it is left open?
I would be fuming if I were you - I would be speaking to the manager at the council and if that got nowhere speaking to a lawyer to see where you stand - particually on the issue of uncontrolled dogs killing your chickens.

Have only read this far but could you not install a stile gate where you have to push one way then the other to get around it so no animals can escape. Or what about a bridle gate with a hard spring on it so it shuts itself. Fence a 5ft piece all along the footpath with chicken wire to stop dogs getting through (I know its expensive but you said you'd fence the footpath in. Would any of these solve the problem? I do feel for you

 

[flowerlady]

Again this is not from Defra - and is dated 1953, when horses would have been classed as livestock due to their agricultural use..........

Not sure but when I stabled on a farm the farmer told us that horses were not now classed as agricultural livestock but leisure pursuits (that was about 15 to 20 years ago.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

Again this is not from Defra - and is dated 1953, when horses would have been classed as livestock due to their agricultural use..........

It IS the law.

Horses are not normally classified as agricultural but there are several aspects in which they are

(i) grazing a field is classed as an agricultural use even with horses so long as supplementary feed isnt given
(ii) dog livestock worrying where horses are included in the definition.

Would you like to quote the text of a more recent act? One which doesnt include horses in the definition of livestock (and the Act will define livestock for sure). I would like to see it please......

 

[Arizahn]

Or something along the lines of: "That's a lovely dog you have...great eating on a dog like that! How much do you want for him?"

 

[MRich]

We have successfully diverted a few footpaths through clients' gardens etc at work (I work for a rural surveyor/land agent), so perhaps get in contact with a local rural surveying firm and see if they can help? I know it was a fairly long winded process with requirements such as the new/diverted path having to be a set width etc.

 

[jools123]

But this statement doesn't come from the Defra website. Which would be your first port of call to check on the status of what is classed as livestock.

Dogs worrying livestock
The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953

ok the following is from an up to date defra website!

Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 the owner and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time will be guilty of an offence if it worries livestock on agricultural land. The dog must have been attacking or chasing livestock in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering or, in the case of females, abortion or the loss or diminution of their produce. An offence is not committed if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of ‘livestock’ includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds are not included.

The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953

yes this act is from 1953 BUT still stands

 

[indie999]

hello and thanks for reading. its a bit long and garberish but please, if you get the jist or have any advice or positive comments, i'd love to hear from you.

i am looking for any help or advice or any legal experience (if you've been there before) so i can divert or even ''close down'' our public footpath.

we live in a farm in west sussex. we have 7 horses - polo ponies, a labrador, a jack russell, 2 farm cats and two house cats (old) and 10 free range hens. ALL our animals, including the horses, are super friendly and will come and say hello and stand / sit / perch for fuss. non have ever bitten, kicked, snarled, pecked, scratched or shown the slightest bit of aggression. All our animals are brought up with noise, kids, dogs, and chinooks, balloons going overhead.

our farm is down a half mile private lane off a busy-ish country road, this private lane is owned by us and maintained by us. there are also 3 other cottages that run into this lane. the owners of the cottages have a right of way on our lane to get to their houses. Our farm is surrounded on all sides by grazing land of some 30 acres. at the corner of our land ajoining our neighbours farm, a public footpath brings you onto our land, past our pond, through our gates, straight across our front garden, up our drive, 20ft past our outside swimming pool, 2ft past our kitchen window, then turns across our front garden into our 'winter paddock' (of 15 acres) goes alongside our hedge, to join a footpath behind our farm/land and onto another neighbours. the footpath is probably 220 yards long.

three times this year so far some twozzer has left the gate open so all our horses have escaped. thankfully one of our neighbours has phoned me to say "a herd of horses is running along the lane'' another occasion we had them in neighbours fields ... luckily each time i have caught them before they reached the main road. i asked for styles instead of hunting gates and was told ''no way'' by the council. a gate cannot be replaced by anything but a gate on a public footpath.

two of our chickens have also been mauled and died due to dog owners' dogs attacking them. we also have dog crap everywhere (we dont mind standing in our dog crap but walkers dog crap we draw the line at). the dog crap is all over the fields, garden, and one even sat and squatted as i stood next to it on the steps of the swimming pool. i have never seen a dog walker using a lead or picking up poop - and have been verbally assaulted when i asked one dude to pick up his dog crap which one of his three loose dogs did ontop of my molasses horse lick in the field. we have also had dogs leaping in our pool and folk stopping to have a chat when we were having a bbq with the kids.... at each time we have been polite ....we have lived here 43 years.

today i received a letter from the footpath council lady informing me that two people have complained that my horses are ''threatening'' as they all, all 7 of them, approached the walkers, and on one occasion they chased her dogs. the council person said that both complaint letters said the horses were lively and unpredictable and the walkers were scared .. so decided to climb through the fence and walk through our back garden, round the house to go back out the front gate. i remember this day as they also had two dogs, vizla types, who actually ran through my kitchen!!!!

i have now set the wheels in motion to re-locate the footpath to run the opposite end to my house, though the field to ajoin the footpath at the top of my farm. i have asked that it no longer comes up my driveway, past my windows etc and instead have said i will 'fence' in the footpath so no one can be scared anymore of my lifestock, no more chickens will be killed and no one can let the horses out. i have even said they can have my private lane as a footpath, adding a mile extra for the ramblers/walkers/council .. free of charge.

the council person told me today that this will be rejected as ""before walkers only walked up one side of a field, now they have to walk up three"" basically my field is a big square and i am asking that they walk around the field. .... she also told me that am am totally liable for my livestock and if they escape and cause a crash i could be sued. even if someone else has let them free.

i am all for freedom in the countryside ... but now its wearing thin. the footpath is used daily by regular walkers and dogs and occasional walkers/families/dogs on weekends. (at one stage we had a dog walker exercising his 6 dogs with a ''throw ball'' in the field!!! - when i asked him to stop as we didnt want our hay full of crap he said i should stop being such a rich b*tch and why did i hate animals??!!) .. also worth noting all walkers use our lane as footpath as the lane connects two footpaths.... even though we have a sign saying ''private lane''

help. any suggestions???? cannot move horses as its their field, cannot move chickens as no where else suitable. ... what can i do??

Ok You can apply for a modification order to re direct the path.
If dogs are crapping on the footpath then the council have to fine people and your local dog person should be able to give you posters toput up and also can fine people(not sure if its a civil matter if its on your fields but they definitely have to sort out the footpath poooers. Perhaps you can ask them to sit and watch from your property to catch them etc or film them etc
re gats being left open the council can provide self closing gates etc.
You can get signs to say dog owners MUST keep dogs on leads etc It works both ways dog owner and horse owner. I think there is some info on DEFRA re livestock etc and public etc.
You could electrify some of the path but you must put up posters to say its electrified(I know this is a pain but it might make people stick to the path and the dogs etc
BHs if you are a member should be able to help you. Good luck

 

[indie999]

Oh other option re livestock get some sheep etc to add to your horses. Lots of paperwork but could be a solution re dogs on leads etc

 

[AmyMay]

Lachlan, I have simply gone on the information from Defra.

 

[glamourpuss]

We managed to get a footpath extinguished from our place. It didn't actually go anywhere accept for right up to our front door....which of course meant that people took it as carte Blanche to tramp all around the farm looking in the windows of the then empty house!
We spoke to the parish council & with their help agreed on a much much better route for a path. It started in the same place but actually heads away from our house & back towards the village. It also runs along the edge of an arable field so no danger from livestock.
The parish council then supported my application when I suggested extinguishing the path to my house as the new route only came in if the old path went.
It might be worth seeing if this is an option for you, I found the Parish council particularly easy to deal with & once they were on side it was plain sailing....good luck!