Our views of those who cheat...

[Alec Swan]

..... and considering Sheik Mohammad, are really a bit rich, when we consider that EIGHT leading Newmarket trainers have admitted to using the banned substance Sungate as Stonozolol (sp), a banned steroid, and the BHA have no jurisdiction over the administering vets, and because there were no blood tests taken, and the evidence was only wink3 from the veterinary records, no charges have been brought.

In a previous thread, a while back now, I ventured the opinion that the bulk of the racing industry was corrupt. I'll now go further; the Authorities are spineless (that excellent man Phipps was right :wink3, and there is that much corruption within the industry that even the Authorities are swamped, and looking for route by which they can avoid taking action.

Come back Shaky Mo, all is forgiven.

Alec.

 

[bonny]

I've always thought that to get 2 year olds looking as mature as they do must involve steroid use at some stage in their development.....I think of it like human sprinters or cyclists, in order to have a level playing field everybody has to be using drugs and if your not then it's not possible to compete.....

 

[amandap]

In a previous thread, a while back now, I ventured the opinion that the bulk of the racing industry was corrupt. I'll now go further; the Authorities are spineless (that excellent man Phipps was right :wink3, and there is that much corruption within the industry that even the Authorities are swamped, and looking for route by which they can avoid taking action.

Alec.

Ha ha!

Not just the racing industry. Money and kudos is the modern God.

 

[Caledonia]

..... and considering Sheik Mohammad, are really a bit rich, when we consider that EIGHT leading Newmarket trainers have admitted to using the banned substance Sungate as Stonozolol (sp), a banned steroid, and the BHA have no jurisdiction over the administering vets, and because there were no blood tests taken, and the evidence was only wink3 from the veterinary records, no charges have been brought.

In a previous thread, a while back now, I ventured the opinion that the bulk of the racing industry was corrupt. I'll now go further; the Authorities are spineless (that excellent man Phipps was right :wink3, and there is that much corruption within the industry that even the Authorities are swamped, and looking for route by which they can avoid taking action.

Come back Shaky Mo, all is forgiven.

Alec.

There's a massive difference between using a product recommended by vets for joint treatments, and administering steroids for building muscle advantage.

But clearly you want to think racing corrupt, and will jump on any twistable report.

 

[Alec Swan]

There's a massive difference between using a product recommended by vets for joint treatments, and administering steroids for building muscle advantage.

But clearly you want to think racing corrupt, and will jump on any twistable report.

Explain something to me, how do you justify those comments to those trainers who abide by the rules? How when two trainers, have a horse apiece who would both benefit from the same BANNED drug, is it right that one horse is back in work, before the other, because upon veterinary advice, one broke the rules, whilst another one didn't?

If it's ok for a horse to have steroids injected in to it's joints, but not for steroids to enter the body via a muscular route, then change the rules. As I see it, it's nothing to do with twisting reports, and everything to do with levelling a playing field.

Alec.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Can you provide the link Alec so I can have a good old read, I searched on the RP site last night and found nothing.

 

[Caledonia]

Explain something to me, how do you justify those comments to those trainers who abide by the rules? How when two trainers, have a horse apiece who would both benefit from the same BANNED drug, is it right that one horse is back in work, before the other, because upon veterinary advice, one broke the rules, whilst another one didn't?

If it's ok for a horse to have steroids injected in to it's joints, but not for steroids to enter the body via a muscular route, then change the rules. As I see it, it's nothing to do with twisting reports, and everything to do with levelling a playing field.

Alec.

You seem determined to miss the significant point that the trainers trusted their vets (TOP practice) to administer a drug to help a horse which would be out of training due to injury. Now ultimately it is down to the trainer to use correct and appropriate medication, but I would trust my vet to know what's in the drugs he administers, and to inform me if it breaches regulations. If the vet is doing the administering, as was the case in all bar Gerard Butler's horses, then the trainers won't see any packaging, and why would the trainer have any reason to believe the vet was wrong?

Gerard Butler is different because he administered directly into the joint himself, and whilst I have it on very good authority from someone who worked for him for years that the man is straight and doesn't cheat, he was wrong because didn't use a vet.

Are you truly saying that you don't see the difference between medical treatment and using steroids to bulk up and gain advantage? And don't forget, Al Zarooni also used a different steroid which has NO place in injury treatment. He had NO records of administration, no veterinary supervision and has a proven history of abusing horses with steroids for bodybuilding.

I agree it's an area that needs looking at.

However, your OTT rant about all racing being corrupt because trainers trusted their vets is utterly ridiculous - the injections were recorded, FGS.

Imagine a horse had to be operated on and needed to be sedated and anaesthetised. Would you say that shouldn't be allowed either because someone else chose to dope a horse with a similar drug to slow performance?

I don't know how they need to proceed with this, given that the steroid injection is by far the most effective help for the joint. It's used commonly in ALL sports horses (who luckily can't be accused of corruption by the uninformed, because nobody has them keep medical records) so why should racehorses be less fortunate in their treatment?

I'd think a simple solution would be to have the horses registered as out of training for a certain period after the injection, and a blood test taken when they return to training so as to prevent perceived skulduggery by those who want to see nothing but bad in the sport.

 

[Allover]

Unfortunately it is not just the racing world. Just spend some time in the stables at SJ events and you will see horses being injected left right and centre with stimulants/relaxants/anti-inflammatories depending on the horses particular "needs". I came to the conclusion a while ago now that as soon as money/kudos is involved in horse sport then the welfare of the animal is compromised.

I am sure we are all aware of the Rollkur debate currently in the limelight, to me this is just a symptom of a far greater disease that is seeping its way down the ranks making harsh tack, beatings and a complete lack of regard for the horses needs to be met ever more normal.

The FEI also has a lot to answer for IMHO. A quick example is the Saudi riders done for doping (a second offence for one of them) a few months before the Olympics. Cases were rushed through to allow them to compete and then lo and behold the Saudis sponsor a Nations Cup series.

It all smells really bad to me!

 

[1stclassalan]

You don't have to administer steroids to cheat. What about the suggestion a while back that a consistently out performing yard was "blood doping" - the same practice that was rife in sport cycling? For those that don't know about this:- some time before a race, blood is taken from the athlete ( human or animal ) and the night before the race a certan amount is put back in. The body will correct the imbalance quite quickly but before it does, the athlete will benefit from having a far higher oxygen capacity than other competitors - it can't be traced by any drug test. I think the Jockey Club mounted a series of raids without finding anything sufficiently damning for a prosecution but surprise, surprise that yard's form has since fallen back to the average.

In the good old days a good horse was often given a bucket of water just before the off - all racers have their water restricted before racing so there's trouble getting them to drink it - hey presto, the runner is carrying a 10lb penalty no one can see. If the Trainer is called into the Stewards enquiring into the running all he had to do is look incredulous and say "well, Sirs, I don't understand it either, just an off day perhaps."

 

[Caledonia]

all racers have their water restricted before racing so there's trouble getting them to drink it

No, they don't.

 

[1stclassalan]

No, they don't.

What's the sponging their mouths before bridling up all about then?

How many saddlings have you witnessed?

 

[twiggy2]

You seem determined to miss the significant point that the trainers trusted their vets (TOP practice) to administer a drug to help a horse

that implies a real naivety on the part of the trainers and truely underestimates the hold many of the large trainers have over the vets they use. it is a multi billion pound industry and the large trainers do/will call the shots and many vets will/do just do as they are told even if that means administering a drug they know is illegal and will increase performance under the guise of treating a joint.
nearly all the professionals in this industry will receive massive perks when the performance of the horses receiving their care is good enough to increase the winnings on a yard.

the wheel of racing turns purely because of the money involved and money/greed corrupt everything at that level

 

[1stclassalan]

.....trainers do/will call the shots ......administering a drug they know is illegal

Sorry, but I couldn't help laughing at that!

the wheel of racing turns purely because of the money involved and money/greed corrupt everything at that level

Funnily enough though - it ain't the money is it? Most of the folk we are talking about are near trillionaires and have put money into the industry beyond the bounds of avarice!

It's just that some don't like losing and want a steady parade of winners regardless.

There's a good Arab tale to illustrate what I mean here:- a notorious thief is making off with a sheik's prize horse and calls out to him - look at me, am I not the boldest thief whoever lived and shot off. All the sheik's men chaser after him but of course none have a faster horse; however; the one the sheik rides is almost as good and slowly he gains on the thief. At this the thief calls out again saying that the sheiks wonder horse isn't so good after all. The sheik then shouts the secret word which he has trained the horse to respond to and the thief vanishes - the sheik lost his horse but saved his face.

 

[Caledonia]

What's the sponging their mouths before bridling up all about then?

How many saddlings have you witnessed?

I've led up a fair few horses in my time. Tho quite why that is relevant, I don't know?

It's not necessarily the norm to sponge horses mouths nowadays, the current thinking is to have water always available. But FYI, when they sponge in eventing, it's often a glucose solution.

 

[1stclassalan]

I've led up a fair few horses in my time. Tho quite why that is relevant, I don't know?

It's not necessarily the norm to sponge horses mouths nowadays, the current thinking is to have water always available. But FYI, when they sponge in eventing, it's often a glucose solution.

It was always done in the old days to get them to mouth the bit - as they were so flipping dry it would stick to 'em!

Travelling weight is no where near as important in eventing as it is in sprinting - what is it, 3/4 of a length for every pound over a mile? All things considered.

 

[Caledonia]

that implies a real naivety on the part of the trainers and truely underestimates the hold many of the large trainers have over the vets they use. it is a multi billion pound industry and the large trainers do/will call the shots and many vets will/do just do as they are told even if that means administering a drug they know is illegal and will increase performance under the guise of treating a joint.
nearly all the professionals in this industry will receive massive perks when the performance of the horses receiving their care is good enough to increase the winnings on a yard.

the wheel of racing turns purely because of the money involved and money/greed corrupt everything at that level

Oh please - the relatively tiny amounts of steroid in a drug like Sungate have zero bearing on building muscle on the whole body. And because they are given because of injury, there is little chance of the horse getting anywhere near a racecourse with any remaining drug in the system.

Trainers are busy people - if they have the practicalities of dealing with 50 or so horses in their yard, plus race-planning, dealing with owners, organising work schedules, managing staff, going racing etc, then they are not going to question their vet about every single drug make-up. That's why they use top establishments like the one that administered Sungate.They trust them - they do the same with the farrier, the chiropractor, the physio etc - there is a point where they have to delegate. That's why the eight trainers faced no charges. BHA has no power to regulate the vets involved, hence the reason nothing could be done.

This fantasist theory that all racing is corrupt is an absolute nonsense. Of course it's about winning, but so is every other sport. And why on earth do you think that all the professional involved receive perks? Never heard such nonsense, frankly. Not all yards share pool money throughout the staff either, sometimes it just goes to the lad/lass lucky enough to have the (very rare) money spinner.

There are so many facets to racing - the money is spread across so many sections of the industry and all are dependent on each other. People race horses at a base level the same way that people show, SJ, DR, event, do endurance etc. They like to see their horses perform and they hope that they win.

That said, racing is successful because it's the least easy to corrupt and the most basic of tests - horses running as fast as they can - it's not opinion, it takes a clever jockey to stop a horse for a gamble without being spotted, and usually it can be seen.

 

[Caledonia]

It was always done in the old days to get them to mouth the bit - as they were so flipping dry it would stick to 'em!

Travelling weight is no where near as important in eventing as it is in sprinting - what is it, 3/4 of a length for every pound over a mile? All things considered.

Things have moved on a lot since 'the old days' !

I wasn't comparing racing to eventing, other than to say where sponges are currently used. And so many factors govern success in racing - ground conditions, jockey, fences, hurdles, course, right handed, left handed, undulations, field size, trip etc - weight stops horses, but there is no real rule of thumb otherwise betting wouldn't exist!

 

[Echo Bravo]

I put it down to the fact Alec may have lost a couple of bets at York.

 

[Caledonia]

I put it down to the fact Alec may have lost a couple of bets at York.

 

[amandap]

If it's ok for a horse to have steroids injected in to it's joints, but not for steroids to enter the body via a muscular route, then change the rules. As I see it, it's nothing to do with twisting reports, and everything to do with levelling a playing field.

Alec.

I agree about a level playing field but sadly humans are prone to cheating, so I can't see that ever being eradicated.
Mind you, the playing field can be set anywhere and perhaps it's time to set it more in favour of the horse? You never know there might be less injuries.

Re, legal and illegal doping etc. being endemic. http://epona.tv/blog/2013/august/flogging-a-sick-horse

Do we really think it's ok to work sick or damaged horses hard anyway?

 

[Caledonia]

Do we really think it's ok to work sick or damaged horses hard anyway?

Nope. I think Andreas was unbelievable and should be banned. It's one thing finding out after a comp/run that a horse was poorly, but to knowingly compete is wrong.

 

[zaminda]

I would say that many trainers I have worked for have taken the vets advice, and expect them to stick to the rules. The practise in question wrote off a very well bred horse on a yard I worked at, so it was sold it turned out to be a royal ascot winner. This should give you some idea of the standing they are held in.
If people want to give horses steroids, the simple way to do so is simply put them on a pre training yard which aren't governed by the same rules, and medicate them there.