Outline advice needed

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Marisssa&king

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I have a 15,3 9 year old welsh D that I really struggle to get an outline and contact on the bit with him unless he is in side reigns or being lunged with them on. I’ve had him for 2 years now and am loosing the will to live!!! Are there any recommendations for having horses like this and what training exercises/ techniques I can use to help?
thank you in advance
Marissa :)
 
You need an instructor to teach you to use your seat and legs to engage the hindquarters, so that the front end will 'automatically' come into the outline that you are looking for. If you have been riding him for 2 years and trying to pull the front into an outline, it will take some time for the correct musculature to develop, so you will need to be patient. Correct riding is key. IME, if the rider is sitting correctly the horse will move correctly.
 
Sometimes trying too hard to get your horse in an outline will do the opposite. Instead, focus on specific exercises to engage the hind end, shoulder in, leg yield etc.

I am sure someone will come along with better advice but there's definitely no need to lose the will to live because your horse won't go in an outline! Try to have fun!

If it's been 2 years then try something different - stop trying! Instead, engage the hind end, do exercises you both enjoy...if you can jump start jumping, lots of poles, lateral work. Trotting around desperately trying to get your horse in an outline is a trap I've fallen into many times. Instead, I now set up an exercise and work through it - I don't focus on the head, instead looking at straightness, forwardness, rhythm. Then once we've nailed that, we make the exercise a bit more complex. This is fun for us both and more often than not the outline is there by the end of the session.

Don't put too much pressure on yourself - it should be fun.

ETA Second the above comment to get a good instructor!
 
The reason the side reins work is that they give a release when the horse gives, by virtue of being static. It is still not a nice feel for the horse as they are a dead feel. They tend to make the horse go behind the vertical because the horse doesn't want to run into the dead feel.

To have a horse accept the contact (I dislike the idea of going for an outline as that tends to make people pull) the rider needs to learn the feel first. It is counter intuitive to start to get it and then lighten the hand, but that is what is needed. So, ask, but be so aware of when the horse starts to soften so you too can soften. Most people feel it starting so re-double their efforts, or are so please to get an 'outline' that they don't let go, so the horse has no release and soon stops trying.

I would start to teach yourself, and to teach the horse to try, by starting on the floor in a halter. You can ask for a give, or a lower of the head. When the horse even thinks in the right direction then soften. Build up from there.
 
Take the outline part of it completely out of your mind. Forget that.
Concentrate on contact, straightness and connection. A decent trainer will be able to help you with this.
The ‘outline’ (a word which I think should be banished to Room 101) is the end result of the horse working through his body, over his back and into a consistent contact (consistent, not fixed).
 
Pearlsasinger said:
You need an instructor to teach you to use your seat and legs to engage the hindquarters, so that the front end will 'automatically' come into the outline that you are looking for. If you have been riding him for 2 years and trying to pull the front into an outline, it will take some time for the correct musculature to develop, so you will need to be patient. Correct riding is key. IME, if the rider is sitting correctly the horse will move correctly.
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If you haven't found a bit that the pony /horse likes, is happy with and accepts, then there is nothing "automatic" about it no matter what you do. There will be insufficient contact, no correct outline and this will result in poor control. Only when you have found the key to their mouth and the rider is sitting and riding correctly will the pony/horse move correctly. That is of course assuming that teeth and back checks are all in order (and any wolf teeth have been removed, these will cause discomfort and evasion of the bit).
 
Andie02 said:
If you haven't found a bit that the pony /horse likes, is happy with and accepts, then there is nothing "automatic" about it no matter what you do. There will be insufficient contact, no correct outline and this will result in poor control. Only when you have found the key to their mouth and the rider is sitting and riding correctly will the pony/horse move correctly. That is of course assuming that teeth and back checks are all in order (and any wolf teeth have been removed, these will cause discomfort and evasion of the bit).
Click to expand...


Well of course, if the tack doesn't fit correctly, the horse can't work correctly!
 
Does the horse actually go forward off the leg? I’d say you need more leg on to ride into a consistent contact. It’s all about working a horse between the hand and leg and working to self carriage than the word outline to me. A good trainer is the way forward.
 
When I was learning, a long time a go, a trick was to try on the way home. They are usually turbo charged, with a power walk with their hind legs coming up underneth them. Then try and take up a contact, which can vary, and keep that walk, concentrate on the walk, not the head, and allow your body to move with the stride, and when they give and lighten the front end, if its only a few steps soften the hand. So the power is going through. The horse will not know what you are after so you have to make it easy, and settle for baby steps.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Well of course, if the tack doesn't fit correctly, the horse can't work correctly!
Click to expand...

Who even mentioned the tack not fitting correctly? Not me ! ......... So you do not understand what finding a bit that the horse likes and accepts means ! As Horses_Rule quite rightly said on another post, just shoving something in their mouths and hoping for the best seems to be the way for many inexperienced people these days. Not having a go at Marissa here, more than likely that could be the bit that she got with the horse. A bit that any pony or horse dosn't like and accept won't get you very far very quickly unless of course you get pissed off with ! So when starting a pony/horse off, following mouthing, lungeing, long lining and backing and establishing contact and a correct outline/ carriage ( if you prefer that word.... same thing) and then correct way of going. Basics when breaking in and bringing on ! If they have been correctly broken and schooled and the rider taught properly how to ride then the pony or horse should understand what is being asked of him. How do you think that small baby novice show ponies are taught the correct way of going for children to ride in the show ring? Generally they are schooled and "set up" by someone older who is a lightweight, small, experienced rider.

In response to the the original poster Marissa's problems, obtaining contact and correct outline stems from finding the bit that best suits him that he is happy with and accepts, when this is achieved and with correct riding, the difference in way of going can be amazing. I have suggested bits on her other post.
 
honetpot said:
When I was learning, a long time a go, a trick was to try on the way home. They are usually turbo charged, with a power walk with their hind legs coming up underneth them. Then try and take up a contact, which can vary, and keep that walk, concentrate on the walk, not the head, and allow your body to move with the stride, and when they give and lighten the front end, if its only a few steps soften the hand. So the power is going through. The horse will not know what you are after so you have to make it easy, and settle for baby steps.
Click to expand...
 
Something I find very useful is that when I feel like using hands, I use leg instead.

Getting the hind legs active without letting the power escape out the front end is vital. That took me a long time to get. I'm naturally a washing line reins person.

Keeping your rein contact steady but not stiff is important too. If it's steady horses seem to be happy to reach for it.

Another helpful tip is to engage your core to carry your own weight. When that's working you can move with the horse properly. They respond to you carrying yourself well, by carrying themselves well. There's a book called 'ride with your mind' that uses imagery to teach you how to do it.

Another one is try not to look at the head. Easier said than done but I find it tips me forward and puts me off balance.

Lateral work will always get you there. It can take some time but when the horses inside hind leg moves under its body, it's back naturally raises and you have a lovely non handsy outline. Spiral circles work best for me. I do them in walk to start with because there's less movement and it's easier.

It's easier to get an outline in walk than trot so, start with the slower gaits and if you lose it in trot, transition back to walk

It takes a lot of trial and error to put it together. I'm happy just to hack out with one hand on a loose rein but when I don't make the effort I lose my feel so I can't slack off too much.
 
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It's the "holy grail" of riding isn't it? As someone who has and still struggles with it, I honestly believe the right trainer is the key. Someone who has the experience to see what the problem is and can give the rider clear guidance on what to do to get the horse working correctly. Lots of riders and trainers do it by feel and don't experience the frustration that many of us feel and being told to sit or ride correctly isn't very helpful. No-one sits or rides badly deliberately. I am always heartened by seeing para riders with many physical challenges who can get their horses going nicely, if they can do it then so can I. Have a look at the scales of training on the BD website, I've found them very useful, if I'm struggling I work initially on rhythm, when that's going nicely I think about suppleness, can I move the neck and head around, is there resistance or a block anywhere? Then I think about contact and usually my reins need shortening, then I put my leg on for more impulsion and with a bit of luck and a following wind, I start to get a nice feeling of connection. I know lots of people say it all comes from behind but if I haven't got the front end sorted first I don't find putting the leg on helps. Looking at some of the exercises that people have suggested I think that's why they work eg lateral work and spirals require the horse to flex and soften in front, they will often slow down as it's harder work so it's natural to put the leg on to maintain the same rhythm and hey presto the horse drops into an outline. Well that's the theory anyway. Good luck it's not easy to get a horse working correctly and I am used to my trainer yelling at me that Rose isn't properly on the bit, when I think i've cracked it!
 
Andie02 said:
Who even mentioned the tack not fitting correctly? Not me ! ......... So you do not understand what finding a bit that the horse likes and accepts means ! As Horses_Rule quite rightly said on another post, just shoving something in their mouths and hoping for the best seems to be the way for many inexperienced people these days. .
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If the bit isn't comfortable for and accepted by the horse, it doesn't fit correctly. There is a great deal more to fitting a bit than looking at the length of the bit and the width of the mouth
 
do you have a trainer, we cant see the horse so dont know what is happening and why. you need to have lessons with a good trainer and forget about holding his head in, you need him to go freely forward and do plenty of lateral work and lots and lots of transitions to get his weight behind the saddle and the front will come much easier..
 
Pearlsasinger said:
If the bit isn't comfortable for and accepted by the horse, it doesn't fit correctly. There is a great deal more to fitting a bit than looking at the length of the bit and the width of the mouth
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Err .....obviously.......but you are still not getting the point !
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I can only assume that you have never seen a horse in an 'outline' (horrible term) without a bridle/bit, or indeed any tack at all. Those with the correct musculature will carry themselves naturally even in the field.
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Derrrr.....Jeez...... What a numpty ! So you haven't learnt yet that you should never assume anything! You really are embarrassing yourself now !!!

Hmmm just wondering how many ponies you have broken and produced to win, mainly home bred, and how many ponies and horses you have broken for clients? Oh, and how many have you bred and shown in hand and under saddle to win at the bigger shows as well like for instance Newark and Notts, The Royal Highland, Cheshire County, Lincoln County, Bucks County, Derbyshire County, Leicester County, N.C.P.A., Bakewell, Rutland County, POB, POB Scottish, Ponies UK, Scottish Horse Show, City of Leicester, Wakefield etc. etc. And owned and stood stallions at stud? Previous to this worked with top class show horses and also worked with racehorses. Hmmm........ that will be me then.

Pmsl .........you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried !
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
I can only assume that you have never seen a horse in an 'outline' (horrible term) without a bridle/bit, or indeed any tack at all. Those with the correct musculature will carry themselves naturally even in the field.
Click to expand...
Andie02 said:
Derrrr.....Jeez...... What a numpty ! So you haven't learnt yet that you should never assume anything! You really are embarrassing yourself now !!!

Hmmm just wondering how many ponies you have broken and produced to win, mainly home bred, and how many ponies and horses you have broken for clients? Oh, and how many have you bred and shown in hand and under saddle to win at the bigger shows as well like for instance Newark and Notts, The Royal Highland, Cheshire County, Lincoln County, Bucks County, Derbyshire County, Leicester County, N.C.P.A., Bakewell, Rutland County, POB, POB Scottish, Ponies UK, Scottish Horse Show, City of Leicester, Wakefield etc. etc. And owned and stood stallions at stud? Previous to this worked with top class show horses and also worked with racehorses. Hmmm........ that will be me then.

Pmsl .........you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried !
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I think I am missing something here. So you compete at all of these places without a bridle/bit? Otherwise, I'm not sure about the relevance of all the shows is to the comment you quoted?
 
i think the lockdown has got to some of our posters, i dont understand the relevence of all of the shows either, many of us on here have broken our own horses and been very successful at getting them to work correctly on the bit and not btv but it is not necessary to put all of that info on a post where someone is asking for advice and the best advice is get a good trainer who can check that the bit is right and teach the rider how to obtain the result required. its not rocket science, just common sense
 
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