Outline Help!!

HevenzAngel

HevenzAngel

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Okay so i have been working really hard with my young mare on our outline in some cases she tends to go behind the bit but works nice most of the time.

Was wondering if anyone had any good tips to get a horse into a nice outline?

Have had many people saying different things to me like..

"Dont move your hands keep them just above the knee and wide apart, while keeping her moving" but i find this gets her confused and makes her fight allot.

"Give and take and push forward" This seams better for her but i was told this was wrong and on occasion she does go behind the bit using this method.

I have recently tried pushing her forward while flexing her right and left this seams to have worked well.

These are some pictures of her outline. Please feel free to comment on them on this thread :) I know the one with her standing is not great http://s737.photobucket.com/albums/xx11/HevenzAngel/Willows Outline/
 
I think for the moment I'd concentrate on getting her working forward and tracking up without trying to force the front end to look pretty.
 
To get an outline, you need get your horse working from behind and plenty of impulsion (forward energy). If you have a soft, supple hand, your horse will accept the contact and start following your hand. Once your horse has accepted the contact you are providing with your soft and supple hand, your horse should start relaxing his jaw and neck, then you get the outline.


If you force an outline, the horse will just fall on the forehand and trip over itself. Plus the hindlegs will trail behind by a mile!
 
Firstly try and get a good instructor to help, the comment about hands above your knees confused me rather, I have never in many years of riding and teaching thought of the hands being anywhere near the knees while on a horse.

Your stirrups are short which make it look like you are not sitting up tall enough to get her going freely forward, which she needs to be before you start to work on a true outline, try and ride her from your leg to a soft hand and let her find her rhythm and balance, then she will be more able to maintain the outline you are seeking from her. Lots of variety in the work you do, transitions, circles poles will all help and keep those hands away from your knees you will then be able to sit up taller:D.
 
Perhaps think of it as getting your horse working over the back to the bit. When you think about outline, its just a shape that may be held and is not correct.

Working to the bit is not just about the bit of the horse you can see but the result of suppleness and straightness into an even contact.

As mentioned above, the best place to start is with a good instructor as the connection is probably the hardest to learn.

But, you are asking so you have taken the first step to success!
 
All of the people at my yard tell me different things and it gets me very confused. I have always been taught the give and take method from my teacher but i dont like using it i feel it dosent work with her. I do allot of pole work with her trot and cater poles to get her balanced.

I feel as if i have supple hands and try and ride her forward it dosent work she just goes about with her nose sticking out???

She carries her head well normally and works on a nice Rhythm in the lunge but i find it hard to transfer it when i am riding.

I will try and get a video of her working the way she does normally for you all to see maybe that will help :D
 
Hear are some videos:

This is her cantering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1APZdjlkDA&context=C3a63f2eADOEgsToPDskL-Fjm0VR9nj71KicMKeVB6

Trotting, Poles and a small jump; We had such bad weather that i couldn't ride for weeks so the jump wasn't the best as she was a little fresh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mSzjJ32ji4

On the lunge: Again she was a bit fresh and the video quality is poor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU2uPjF8CEE

Please feel free to comment on any of these my riding isnt the best in some of these but they were the only videos i had at the time :)
 
I think you need to go back to basics with her - first step - get the saddle checked, not only does she look a little uncomfortable but you do too - next step - good instructor. You should be working on building her up and trying to get her more supple and balanced - not sure how old she is but if she's very young and recently backed perhaps ditch the school work and getting her hacking out nicely - always ridden with a soft contact and striding out. It's very easy to try and crack on with a young horse but they can become sour quickly and then behavioural issues occur.
 
When you are thinking about outline you need to think about her whole body, not just what her head is doing. At the moment it looks like you are just trying to fix her head in a particular position.

As others have said just maintain a still contact (with your hands relaxed and still above the withers, the same width apart as your ears!). If you 'fiddle' you may find your horse gets upset or is never still in her head and mouth.

Work on getting a good consistent rhythm in all paces, do lots of transitions and changes of pace, while keeping the rhythm and soft contact. If you can do that her head should sort its self out once you have her working from behind.

A few lessons from a good instructor will really help.
 
'outline' is the whole horse's body, and it really does start from the back end. that's why the German scales of training start with Relaxation Rhythm THEN Contact... then Impulsion, Straightness, Collection. It looks as if you are trying to fast-forward to the last one in her head and neck position... it isn't all about the horse maintaining a curved neck and vertical face, honestly.
Get her swinging happily forwards in a good rhythm and balance (i.e. not on the forehand). it does NOT matter where her nose is at this point, stuck out in front is FINE, if that's how she needs to be to get the back end swinging and her back working properly. when that is established, and you can do loops and circles on both reins and from one to another staying in good rhythm and balance, at all paces, THEN start to think about establishing a true contact and getting her to stretch forwards downwards TO the bit.
you will need a good instructor. you are being told a lot of conflicting things, none of them correct imho. 'hands not moving, wide apart and over knees' - sorry but that would give a ridiculous position. watch the top riders, see what they do with their hands (they stay above the withers usually, or go wider for a while but then back to neutral position) and their bodies. Ignore their horses' head and neck positions, look at the engagement and the back swinging - it takes YEARS to get a horse trained to that outline, obviously!
'give and take and push forward' is also strange. imho the best advice is what my trainer says: 'once you take up a contact, your hands belong to the horse' and 'NEVER pull, only hold, or give'.
I hope that helps a tiny bit. If you let her establish good balance and rhythm, the outline WILL come in time, but you have to think of it as being like a jigsaw puzzle, and the very last piece to be put into place, once the rest are all correct, is the head and neck position...
i second getting her saddle looked at, and finding a good patient experienced instructor. good luck!
 
The scales are not listed 1 2 3.

If you dont have a connection you dont have communication.

Yes top riders use and teach wide low hands.

A good instructor will help you with this.
 
Bought willow a new bates GP saddle a while ago and she seams a lot better in that. I have been working away with her with her schooling and poles ect. We bought her as a jumping horse so her flatwork was "Lazy". I got an instructor who told me she had lazy movement and we worked on that a lot and got a lesson every week with her and she has turned into an amazing little worker on the flat still improvement to make of course but compared to what she was working like she a different horse. The outline is coming along great as well in trot especially but her canter is by far her best pace. Will get some pictures and videos to show everyone on hear so they can see the improvement in her.

To everyone that was wondering her age she is 7. :D
 
You can only get your hands low and wide by straightening the elbow and tightening the arm so you are better to think of having a straight line from your elbow, through your hand and to her mouth. Ride her from behind in a good rhythm forward to an elastic contact. Some horses like a stronger contact than others but it is never a question of pulling, more her reacting forward off your leg and body out to a stil forward-thinking hand.
 
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