Outrage at US Marine throwing puppy to its death in Iraq

From my experience, there are certainly evaluations before sending anyone out with a loaded weapon - what doesn't seem to happen is ongoing evaluation once someone has been in theatre - mental health issues are still very much taboo which stops many people from coming forward.
 
Yes, it does annoy me that there is more outrage over the death of a puppy than the tens and hundreds of people that are being killed. I think it maybe has to do with the fact that individuals don't want to think about people being killed, but can cope with processing grief for an animal.
 
I think if you put up a video of a child being hurled off there would be more outrage..and less sympathy for the soldiers. I dont think it is wrong to be outraged by this!
 
It was yelping when he threw it.

I think people are more vocal over this because there is a video and it is big news. When there was a video of a girl being stoned to death because she went out with a boy from another religion there was massive outrage as well. I don't know that much about what happens out there, but actions like this horrify me - and I would be even more horrified if it was a human this was done to.
 
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Is there any evidence the puppy was alive when it was thrown? Most puppies when held like that tend to wriggle.

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Actually, they don't, they become totally motionless as this is how their mother would carry them. Note that the puppy has it's legs drawn up, that is typical of a puppy held by the scruff of his neck - if he were already dead, then the legs would just dangle. Sadly I think this little mite was alive
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Yes, it does annoy me that there is more outrage over the death of a puppy than the tens and hundreds of people that are being killed. I think it maybe has to do with the fact that individuals don't want to think about people being killed, but can cope with processing grief for an animal.

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You are entitled to your opinions but to conclude that because people show concern for this subject they disregard the suffering or death of humans, is I believe an ill judged assumption.

Sooty you said “Is there any evidence the puppy was alive when it was thrown? Most puppies when held like that tend to wriggle”.

Puppies are carried like this by their mothers and remain still.

Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk
 
Emma- as i said something terrible may, probably has happened too them
however, i perosnally do not believe this makes it acceptable for them to have done this., in a different situation mot peope wouldnt worry about their mental health.
Or, i hate to bring people into this, but for me this is on the same sort of level, the father who threw his children off the balcony, and claimed to have seen red or whatever, and not be responisble for his asction, this may be true, but would you trust him? Would you forgive him for this because he has mental health issues?
I couldn't
But then, i tend to regard human and animal lives equally, which some people would disagree with. i also seem to react more towards stories of animal cruelty, mainly because i cant think of anything the animal would have done to provoke it, whereas with people, there is almost always a motive.
But thats just me, and a lot of people would disagree with that
But i can't just say, oh well they've gone to war, i couldnt do that, their heads have been messed up, therefore i wont blame them for what they have done

I DONT wish to sound patronising/annoying/having-a-go-at anyone-ish
 
Noone is saying it is acceptable. It is sickening for many reasons, but so is the slaughter of innocent humans. This is one puppy, according to statistics nearly 90,000 humans have been killed. Civilians that is. In Iraq alone. Where are the posts expressing outrage and disgust about that?
 
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Noone is saying it is acceptable. It is sickening for many reasons, but so is the slaughter of innocent humans. This is one puppy, according to statistics nearly 90,000 humans have been killed. Civilians that is. In Iraq alone. Where are the posts expressing outrage and disgust about that?

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^^^^^^^^^

what she said
 
Yes, I do think about people's mental states when they commit other crimes, and think that the vast majority of people do not get the psychological help they need. The laws we make in our countries are for the good of the average citizen, and for society. This assumes a certain 'normality' and the crimes as designated are 'abnormal' behaviour. Now in some instances, there are human flaws at work, greed being one of the most prevelant - stealing a candy bar because you want it, stealing $3M from your company because, again, you want it. Whilst we don't necessarily agree with those individuals actions, we can, for the most part understand the motivation. It is the crimes where we cannot understand the motivation, at least not without refering to third party accounts (oh he is a sadist, etc) where I think something has happened to someone's mind. I do find is fascinating why people commit crimes - the more serious ones especially. When I hear on the news that someone has been killed, I want to know why. I want to know if it was years of abuse pent up, and someone finally did something about it - I think perhaps the average individual can understand these sorts of crimes more easily than others, and when discussed you often hear the phrases 'she should have done it sooner' 'he drove her to it' 'she just snapped' - I think that in a lot of other cases, a similar mental breakdown occurs - now it may not have been brought on by abuse, but could have been brought about by another type of trauma, or an inherent illness. I think that in a lot of cases, serious criminals are not of sound mind - yet rather than treated in the way you or I would if we went to a doctor with a mental illness, they are thrown into an environment which worsens their conditions, not improves them.

When the source of the mental illness / breakdown is an organization that exterts an almost parental control over them, then I think that organization has to weigh in on the responsibility - the marines tell a soldier where to eat, where to sleep, where to s*** yet all too often wants to wash its hands of any problems that it creates by exposing those individuals to the sheer horrors that most of us cannot conceive of. I certainly do not condone the action itself, but also find it hard to condem a person without knowing what was going on, what 'breakdown' in normal human behaviour occured.
 
I agree with a lot of what JCB said. I also agree with emma that the amount of support avaliable for mental health problems and societies general attitude to mental health problems is disgraceful. However, everyone has to take responsibilty for their actions, whether or not they were abused or traumatised. To vent anger on a defenceless animal/child/women/man is not acceptable. Most bullies are perfectly capable of controlling themselves when faced with someone that will fight back and when there will be consequences.

I am more inclined to think ths guy is a nasty piece of work as opposed to mentally ill to an extent that his actions were not his own. The people I have known under section and who were categorised as dangerous to others were quite clearly mentally ill and out of control,unlike this guy.
 
Hi JCB

I said To Emma69
“You are entitled to your opinions but to conclude that because people show concern for this subject they disregard the suffering or death of humans, is I believe an ill judged assumption.”

Which perhaps was not clear - when I said ‘show concern for this subject’ I was talking in the context of the puppy.

So in a round about way you and I agree.

Tonight on Crufts in the ‘special’ (sorry cannot remember the proper title) dog awards. Two soldiers rescued two dogs (one had had his ears cut off) and brought them back to the UK. I am no expert on the ‘war damaged mind’ but these are soldiers I consider fit for duty. Same for anyone that goes beyond the call of duty in the name of all that is good.

In my opinion - If we start excusing people for acts of depravity based on the state of their mind then the next time when it is a child or any other living sole or creature in the wrong place at the wrong time we all have blood on our hands. Whatever this soldiers reasons or lack of, I do not see who it benefits to keep him a position of responsibility, for his own sake or anyone else’s.
 
'Acts of depravity' are what these people are specifically trained to perform. You can't have it both ways! Either we send teenagers overseas armed with bombs, tanks and guns because a Bad Man has WMD, or be have a civilised peacekeeping force on standby for emergencies. How many hundreds of dogs, cats and whatever do you think have been blown to pieces or burned alive along with their owners?
 
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Noone is saying it is acceptable. It is sickening for many reasons, but so is the slaughter of innocent humans. This is one puppy, according to statistics nearly 90,000 humans have been killed. Civilians that is. In Iraq alone. Where are the posts expressing outrage and disgust about that?

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yes and what about what is being uncovered in Jersey? what about so many horrific things going on in this world? but they are not what this post was about - does not mean people don't care. It is possible to care about more than one subject.

Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk
 
Normally I would be horrified at seeing such a video but in all honesty I am not convinced that the puppy was alive prior to being thrown. I could not see it moving, even whilst travelling through the air its legs seemed motionless.
I think maybe this video may have been filmed to cause an outrage and is just a sick joke rather than an actual act of cruelty.
 
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'Acts of depravity' are what these people are specifically trained to perform. You can't have it both ways! Either we send teenagers overseas armed with bombs, tanks and guns because a Bad Man has WMD, or be have a civilised peacekeeping force on standby for emergencies. How many hundreds of dogs, cats and whatever do you think have been blown to pieces or burned alive along with their owners?

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Sooty - this thread is about a human - 'being' of sound mind or not throwing a puppy off a cliff. If you want to talk about the casualties or rights and wrongs of an illegal war open a thread on it.

Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk
 
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Normally I would be horrified at seeing such a video but in all honesty I am not convinced that the puppy was alive prior to being thrown. I could not see it moving, even whilst travelling through the air its legs seemed motionless.
I think maybe this video may have been filmed to cause an outrage and is just a sick joke rather than an actual act of cruelty.

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Would it be ok then that the puppy is dead and it was done for a joke? is that truly less horrific?

Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk
 
Ive watched the video and you can see the puppies mouth move at the start of the video and that was definatly a puppy crying out, which stopped just as the pup hit the rocks.
Whatever the case sinario its sick, thats all there is it to it.
 
Voicesforhorses is right - there is a HUGE amount of depravity going on in this world. And yes, we all react differently to trauma and pain. But if everyone that had ever been abused or traumatised lashed out with no empathy or regard to the pain of others the human race would have destroyed itself years ago. Civilisation, morals and laws developed as there has to be some sort of way of behaving that is acceptable. Killing innocent puppies in this way is not acceptable.

Out of all the people that are seriously traumatised whether it is in a war or incest or whatever, very few go out and take pleasure in hurting others in cold blood. Those that do have something wrong that is quite different from a mental health issue. Having empathy and understanding beings other than yourself experience pain is part of being human - part that guys like this lack - not due to trauma or mental health dsease, but due to they way they are. They may also have mental health issues but that is not the primary reason they choose to hurt others.
 
Well the video I watched was poor quality and I could not make out any movement of the puppy's mouth clearly. I have no sound on my pc either for some videos so I am afraid that its cries were lost on me too as I would not be able to hear them,
If indeed this puppy was alive when thrown then the act is totally sick.
oh and Emma yes it would be very different if the animal was dead before thrown. Morally it would still be sick and wrong to make fun however if the puppy was already dead then no act of cruelty would have been committed providing of course that the puppy had not been killed by the people responsible for making the video.
 
But I 100% believe that if you dishonorably discharge a soldier, rather than giving them the mental health care they need, the service is as bad as any of the actions these soldiers perform. There is no 'NHS' in the US. If you are dishonorably discharged, you no longer have access to military health care, so, in reality, no health care. So if in 5 years, this man goes on to hurt a child, or an adult, maybe rape, assult or kill them, is it really, entirely this person's fault if he is suffering from PTSD? With proper treatment, this person could be cured, and go on to leave a normal life, yet if he is made an example of, could end up in a far worse state, both for society, and for the individual. I do find it very very short sighted that people are being directed to ask for this man's firing, when what they should be really asking for is better care for service personnel.
 
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In my opinion - If we start excusing people for acts of depravity based on the state of their mind then the next time when it is a child or any other living sole or creature in the wrong place at the wrong time we all have blood on our hands. Whatever this soldiers reasons or lack of, I do not see who it benefits to keep him a position of responsibility, for his own sake or anyone else’s.

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I agree with that mostly, tohugh i agree people with mental health problems should get help, i do not think we can just excuse what they have done because of it

Yes i saw those dogs on crufts, I liked that becaue we only ever tend to hear about bad stuff the soldiers have done (especially the US ones, when i expect some of the Brits are just as bad), not the good stuff.
I do think the entire army type system is a bit screwed up though,
Isnt it 18 you can sign up for the army in amaerica? Or 17 with your parental permission?
Yet your still not able to- drink, smoke, get married or have sex, yet you can put your life on the line at 17/18.
I think most 18 year olds wouldnt be mature enough to deal wityh this, once they actually go there, but i still think they should be held responsible for their sctions, this was planned sort of, the puppy may have been spur of the moment, but they had a camera and then instead of leaving it there they posted it on youtube, so it seems like they thought it through
 
wether the wars affected his mental state or not, he will ge away with what hes done on that basis. Hes not going to admit to it is he now, it will be a covered up. I supose theres a slight chance there could be somthing wrong with him but it sure dosnt look like it from the video.
we'l never know will we
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'Acts of depravity' are what these people are specifically trained to perform. You can't have it both ways!

<font color="green"> In some ways I do agree with you, however, they are not trained to rape children and women or throw small puppies off a cliff </font>

Either we send teenagers overseas armed with bombs, tanks and guns because a Bad Man has WMD, or be have a civilised peacekeeping force on standby for emergencies.

<font color="green"> Re the WMD - hmmmmm thats a whole new post </font>

How many hundreds of dogs, cats and whatever do you think have been blown to pieces or burned alive along with their owners?

<font color="green">That is not the issue, although any loss of life is awful. The fact is that this was not a faceless act, most of those guys dropping the bombs or shooting the bullets would not dream of murdering in normal life, the issue is that there are people out there fighting in Iraq or wherever who are capable of wanton acts of cruelty - in this case an innocent puppy - in the next instance it could easily be a child - depraved behaviour usually starts with animals.

Whilst I agree that the US in particular (although we are not entirely sqeaky clean on this either) does not do enough for those genuinly suffering from PTSS, there are those who are simply a 'bad lot', as this particular marine seems to be, who need to take responsibility for their own actions. Just as there are those in normal civilian life who blame everyone/everything but themselves there are those in the forces who will do the same.

For those that say the puppy was dead - that puppy WAS alive, I do know puppies, I have bred enough of them - I would say it was around 6/8 weeks old, it displayed normal behaviour when picked up by the scruff, the noises it made when thrown sounded genuine and stopped immediately it hit the ground, if it was one of this 'soldiers' friends making the noise, do you really think they could have timed it so well?</font>
 
Do you not consider the possibility that the soldier may also be a casualty of war? Do you think his training has possibly made him the person he now is? My comment is that I am bemused by the outrage and reaction to the death of one puppy as a result of a war that has wiped out tens of thousands of people. Why no outrage on their behalf? Are they not cute and furry enough?
 
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