Outrage at US Marine throwing puppy to its death in Iraq

I don't believe it is anything to do with mental health. I think it is to do with desensitisation. You take a human being, turn them into a killing machine and bingo! They kill. Shame it's a puppy this time and not an Iraqi child, but ho hum. Not aimed at anyone in particular, but what do you think has been going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? I am not saying all soldiers behave like this, but it is a risk you take when you recruit from the poorer sections of society (the US is not that far from conscription in its recruitment choices at the moment). People who are not even properly equipped to deal with life are surely not equipped to deal with death.
 
The whole thing is an abomination. The odd thing was it was such a deliberate yet emotionless act; as if the guy was filled with such overwhelming, heavy anger against the values of our sanitized society ("cute puppy- isn't it a cute puppy?") that he had actually gone beyond emotion and didn't seem to know himself why he did it. What's more, his mate(s) didn't seem to know how to react either; they had to be "with" him to film it- but they didn't really comment at all on the pup's death beyond a sort of unconvinced "Oh, that's mean".

If it had been the result of yob behaviour in this country they would have been more emotionally engaged, if you see what I mean; cheering or laughing or else trying to stop the guy doing it.

I don't think you can view this out of context; I wonder what other horrors these guys have seen and been obliged to engage in, and what they were like before they went to war; and how such damaged men manage to slot back into "normal" life on their return.
 
The outrage is probably because it was an individual, defenceless animal.
We dont seem to be able to process death on such a huge scale. If it were a story of an indiviual child or person, having this done to them, there would be more outrage, but it isnt.
most of the deaths we hear aobut are nameless, people we don't know, so we may think 'thats sad' but we accept it.
This has been made more personal
 

The issue isnt about the rights and wrongs of war or killing people or children.

It is about a needlessly cruel and callous act of cruelty.....mental or not there is no excuse for it and whoever was filming it is equally as bad.

As I posted earlier I hope this marine meets the same fate as the poor animal and i hope he suffers.
 
I would think that the outrage is caused by this being a premediated act of violence towards a creature totally seperated from any military action. The motivation of the people involved in this is the cause for concern, an individual carrying out an act of cruelty. With regard to mental health state, the vast majority of people with mental health problems recognise that they have responsibility for their own actions. The people in the mental health services who are least likely to, are those with various personality disorders and this is not seen as a defence in law. (In my opionon it should not be either).
 
Made me feel sick to the stomach..horrible!!

I don't think its fair to dumb down peoples horror at this.. it IS horrible..no question. Thats not to say what those guys have been through isn't worse or that worse is going on but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be horrified by this particular act!!
Unfortunately, this sort of thing isn't confined just to those odd few in the forces..there are people all over this country performing similar acts and worse on animals..
 
The point I am trying to make is that 90,000 INNOCENT people, who were just as separated from the military action, have also died in Iraq alone. Not military, just civilians caught up in a corrupt conquest borne of policital ambition and greed. There have been no posts expressing horror and outrage at their plight. One puppy, tragic though that is, and the people are 'sickened'. I too am sickened by what happened to the puppy, but also the events leading up to it and continuing now.
 
Because this thread isnt a topic of THE WAR ...... it is about a barbaric act of cruelty.

Soldiers choose this job and get paid for it....they dont have to do this sort of job they could work for McDonalds but they choose to be soldiers...they are not forced into it.....that puppy had no choice in anything.....he couldnt move to a different country to escape the war because he was unaware of what was going on as he was an animal.....innocent.(I chose 'he' it may have been female)
 
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No, probably not. No doubt they will stick to bombing people, but doubtless animals die in the bombings too. I don't suppose the soldiers want to be there any more than we want them to be. If you desensitive a human being, this is the result.

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I disagree. My OH is there and genuinely believes they're doing good. He's done nearly 4 months out there and is proud of what they've achieved out there. Over here we only see what the media want us to see; those 5500 guys out there see everything else. Don't believe for a minute those soldiers don't want to be there, that's what they train for. My OH believes so much that they're doing good that he would stay there if they let him!
 
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I am also vegetarian, but I tend to have more compassion for humans than animals. I don't condone it, but I also think that something along the line has gone terribly wrong for this person, and those with him, to alter their senses of what is acceptable, and what is not. I think it is incredibly easy for people to sit and judge, but I doubt that half the people reading this would have the bravery, courage and skills to go to war for their country.

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Totally agree. None of the people replying to this thread can imagine what it's like having to go to war and I really think you should reserve judgment until you know what this guy has been through.
 
Do you really think you can separate this act from the theatre in which it was committed? I don't. These soldiers, some in their teens, are recruited from the poorest sectors of US society, often with unrealistic images of what to expect. I have a son in his early 20s, and cannot begin to think what impact killing for a living would have on him. You can't have it both ways; create a monster and it will run the risk of running riot. I think you will find the 90,000 innocent Iraqi civilians had no choice in their fate either, and to say they could move to another country is laughable.
 
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Totally agree. None of the people replying to this thread can imagine what it's like having to go to war and I really think you should reserve judgment until you know what this guy has been through.

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This guy.....is a heartless thug and if he does things like that to innocent creatures who have done nothing to him then what the hell is he doing out there cos he obviously isnt a compasionate human being and is capable of doing anything to anyone in that country....deserving or not.

There are millions of people in the world who have been through horrible horrible occurances in their lives but I truly believe 99.9% wouldnt do this to an animal just cos they were traumatised.

Do you really believe he will be helping the innocent?
 
The vast majority of people with PTSD do not go on to inflict the same traumas on other people. The vast majority of survivors of childhood abuse do not go on to abuse, this young man may have been predisposed to join the army because he was already violent and felt that he wanted a job where he would be able to be violent.
 
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Totally agree. None of the people replying to this thread can imagine what it's like having to go to war and I really think you should reserve judgment until you know what this guy has been through.

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This guy.....is a heartless thug and if he does things like that to innocent creatures who have done nothing to him then what the hell is he doing out there cos he obviously isnt a compasionate human being and is capable of doing anything to anyone in that country....deserving or not.

There are millions of people in the world who have been through horrible horrible occurances in their lives but I truly believe 99.9% wouldnt do this to an animal just cos they were traumatised.

Do you really believe he will be helping the innocent?

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Please do not quote someone else in a reply to me.
 
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he obviously isnt a compasionate human being and is capable of doing anything to anyone in that country....deserving or not.

There are millions of people in the world who have been through horrible horrible occurances in their lives but I truly believe 99.9% wouldnt do this to an animal just cos they were traumatised.

Do you really believe he will be helping the innocent?

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I would reverse those figures; I suspect that 99.9% of us could be persuaded to do almost anything to anyone else under the right (traumatic) conditions.

The world isn't that simple; you seem to talk in extremes of people who "deserve" to have something horrible done to them "or not", and of decent right-minded people who would never let a little bit of trauma upset their relationship with humans or animals as opposed to the others who are just plain bad; even your use of "Esthersupporter" as a name makes me feel that you like to see the world as Good v Bad and to be on the Good side; but it isn't that straightforward.

Basically I think Sooty is right here; also the poster who says that what makes this post so horrific to us, compared to all the other killing is that it is personal; we can see the animal, we can feel for it - whereas the statistics of war just pass over our heads.

I wonder why this WAS posted on u tube. I doubt that it was just for a laugh.
 
I reckon it was posted on youtube for a sick joke, and that perhaps people are reading a little too much into it
As i said, i doubt people posted it as a statement or a cry for help, as it isnt going to gain them any respect, and they can only get in trouble for it, (which i can see someone saying that mabye they did it to get themselves removed from iraq, but then i dont know much about mental illness, but i tihnk that would invovle more planning, so it wouldnt be like such attacks that apprently occur because of it, it would be premeditated, so they would be completly responisble for their actions, so all sympathy from me is lost on them that way too).
I remmain outraged, sickened, and i dont feel at all sorry for these particular troops. Others who havent done this sort of thing, yes, though i dont like the idea of war- it is probably impractical to leave now, i respect them, they've probably been trained not to consider what they are doing as murder.
I sont know how may of them have to come face to face with the people they kill, somehow that seems different than killing anonymous people.
Hmm i went slightly off topic there, i was trying to stick to the original point of the post...
Oh yeah, bad, horrible, i have no sympathy for them
 
But your reaction is too too odd & interesting to ignore.
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Sorry, but your attitude & reply seemed to personify the -"Yes, its a war, but that's no excuse at all, any decent person would only go mad if it didn't involve hurting women, children & dumb animals" type of approach; and that just doesn't begin to touch on the topic facing us here.
 
JCB, I don't know if it was posted as a sick joke or not. But if so the people involved seem oddly unamused by it; just a little uneasy laughter. Maybe someone was trying to implicate the other guy- or maybe it was staged and I'm just too gullible (but the pup was alive when he was holding it)- or maybe someone was trying to get it off his chest; I really don't know; but as if what happened to the poor dog wasn't horrible enough, there was the strange, strange cold, deliberate attitude of the guy that did it; a sort of freezing hate.

A friend of mine who went to a Catholic school & was educated by nuns once said that the modern take on Hell was that it existed but in one's own mind, & was the state of being totally cut off from God & therefore from love. I'm afraid I don't really "do" God, but oddly, her words came back to me when I saw that video.
 
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I would reverse those figures; I suspect that 99.9% of us could be persuaded to do almost anything to anyone else under the right (traumatic) conditions.

The world isn't that simple; you seem to talk in extremes of people who "deserve" to have something horrible done to them "or not", and of decent right-minded people who would never let a little bit of trauma upset their relationship with humans or animals as opposed to the others who are just plain bad; even your use of "Esthersupporter" as a name makes me feel that you like to see the world as Good v Bad and to be on the Good side; but it isn't that straightforward.

Basically I think Sooty is right here; also the poster who says that what makes this post so horrific to us, compared to all the other killing is that it is personal; we can see the animal, we can feel for it - whereas the statistics of war just pass over our heads.

I wonder why this WAS posted on u tube. I doubt that it was just for a laugh.

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Alleycat your comments to esthersupporter were pretty rude there.
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Alleycat your comments to esthersupporter were pretty rude there.
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Clearly they have been read in that way, which wasn't my intention; presumably because I referred to the poster's own viewpoint as it comes across to me, and this seemed too personal?

Nonetheless, how on earth do WE know what these guys go through?

Its good to see some positive comments coming back from another poster whose OP is over there and feels he is doing some good and I dare say some people will become more compassionate as a result of their experiences rather than less.

However though I don't, myself, know anybody in this war I've seen the damage done to my neighbours' partner (a big, kind, vibrant larger than life guy) by the LAST Iraq war.He is subject to fits of deep depression when he can't interact with other people, can't even walk his dog, which he idolises. His last marriage broke down as his partner just couldn't cope with this; I suspect she found him very frightening. I don't know what he saw or did over there. Its all the more shocking as he is such a nice guy, just wanting to love & be loved.

In his case the Forces are at last being fairly supportive and he is now getting treatment; but for a long time nothing was done, and he couldn't pursue it as even a letter with a crest on it from his old regiment was enough to flip his mind into negative.

I remember my step dad, too, whose experiences of fighting in WWII seemed to colour his whole life and were generally positive; the comradeship, the beauties of Italy (which he was always revisiting after the war), stories about his officer for whom he was a driver, etc.- but when my mum had just died, and he was very down, all sorts of other stories started to surface, which he had kept locked away for 45 years; stuff about the battle for Montecasino; horrible stories; like watching a comrade die, riddled with bullet holes; the lad obviously couldn't be saved, but was still alive & conscious; his mates lit a cigarette for him, and when he inhaled, the smoke came out of the holes in his chest.

Imagine the effect of THAT on a young man.

Obviously a lot of people have managed to deal with this stuff and have retained or enhanced their humanity, with or without help; (no help for my stepfather, or anyone else in those days as far as I know); but I wouldn't, now, presume to judge someone in such a screwed-up, stressful situation who shows such cold inhumanity without knowing a lot more about them and what they have seen and done.
 
Your Stepdad's story reminds me of my Dad's, he was in the RAF during WWII and some of the stories he told us when we were older (getting shot down over France) were horrifying. Interestingly, even though he saw some terrible things and could never forgive himself for the bombing of Hamburg (he was in the Pathfinders), there is no way on this earth that he would perform an act of deliberate cruelty, on the contrary he was one of the kindest people to ever walk this earth, however, he was prone to bouts of depression due to his experiences. I suspect that your neighbour's partner is of the same ilk and I cannot see either of them throwing a puppy off a cliff for a cheap laugh.

I believe that the badness has to be there, no matter how deeply buried and we can prattle on about PSS all we like, but the fact is there are some people who can hurt others without guilt and this marine appears to be one of those. I still find his actions unforgiveable.

Incidentally, my brother also served in the forces (Ireland and The Faulklands) and he also saw more than a human being should have to see - again, despite this, he does have a sense of right and wrong.
 
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The point I am trying to make is that 90,000 INNOCENT people, who were just as separated from the military action, have also died in Iraq alone. Not military, just civilians caught up in a corrupt conquest borne of policital ambition and greed. There have been no posts expressing horror and outrage at their plight. One puppy, tragic though that is, and the people are 'sickened'. I too am sickened by what happened to the puppy, but also the events leading up to it and continuing now.

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Sooty, with respect I think you have made your point. I do not believe anyone on this forum condones the fact there are un supported service personnel or would disagree with you that the thousands of innocent and service personal casualties are not abhorrent. I am sure there are forums where these subjects are debated constantly. Perhaps you could tell us the addresses and those who wish to join you can.

I posted this subject so if people wanted to act on their feelings they had a contact point. If it was not a subject that interested them or in the ‘scheme of things’ seemed unimportant or irrelevant there was no need to contact anyone. The post was not intended to ignore the horrific injustices in this world or to ignore the millions world wide suffering on a daily basis for many reasons. The death of one innocent person is as abhorrent to me as the death of 90,000 but it is just not what the post was about. Perhaps the only reason there have not been the kind of posts you keep wanting - expressing the horror and out rage of the innocent human victims of war is because it would purely be out of context as opposed to your assumption that some of us don’t give a dam because we are talking about a video that involves a puppy.

On a personal note I did not post this subject to disrespect the service men and women who do an amazing job on all our behalf’s and I am afraid that when faced with comments such as Sootys “ I am not saying all soldiers behave like this, but it is a risk you take when you recruit from the poorer sections of society” I feel I must apologies for it was not my intention to open a platform that encourages such (in my opinion) deplorable discrimination.

Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk
 
Emma I'm sure that you are not the one who needs to appologise......your thread was purely about an horrific cruel act upon an innocent animal and not a debate about the War which you are 100% correct in pointing out are on other forums if this is wanted to be discused.....some posts just want to get personal and nasty to individuals so its best not to rise to the bate.....the subject is about cruelty to an animal.
 
Where have I shown 'deplorable discrimination'? It is a fact that the American military is recruiting youngsters from deprived backgrounds. Please do not attempt to dictate to me what I can and cannot discuss on a thread. This matter has already been discussed at some length in the Soapbox prior to your post, in a thread where everybody was allowed to express their opinion freely.
 
Sooty I quite agree at being able to discuss this subject freely since it was not so long ago I was shot down by the OP on a thread about licensing of breeders/dealers and I was sick of people arguing about it all so I said people should stop arguing about who was going to pay for the licensing ( since it was the dealers who were kicking up a fuss about it). I was pretty much told that debate was healthy and made to feel that I was wrong in making such a comment and do you know what it really PISSED me off!
That is why I cannot understand why your valid points raised on this thread about the puppy are being criticised to the point of almost censorship by the OP.
While I do not agree with the killing of this puppy ( if that did in fact take place) the act of throwing the animal has more far reaching implications not least of which the mental state of those individuals who are facing traumatic experiences day in day out all in the name of war and control.
To the OP you cannot have it both ways.
If debate is healthy then it should be allowed to continue no matter what the subject matter and its sensitivity.
 
unfortunately with these type of threads if anyone dissagrees with the OP's opinion,whoever and whatever they may be, then you are deemed to be "ignorant" of the "facts"....


TBH this forum is turning into an off-shoot of PETA with all the petitions we are asked to sign, campains to support etc etc...
 
Actually, if you are going to be pedantic, the subject of the sentence is US Marine. So folks are indeed sticking to the 'subject'. The puppy is the object.
 
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