over bent heavy 'professionally' schooled young horses ???

ClobellsandBaubles

ClobellsandBaubles

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I am just a little confused i hope someone can help clear this up for me. why is it that you see sooo many top competition horse and professionally schooled horses in photos or for sale ads that are completely over bent and breaking at the 3rd or 4th vertebrae sometimes to the point it must be difficult for the horse to see as well as uncomfortable.
I was always taught, and under the impression, that the horse should go forward into the contact the nose should be vertical or just in front if in trot or canter with the poll at the highest point and the most important part was that the horse was moving forward with his back end under them and lifting his back. In my limited knowledge of horse biomechanics shouldn't we be schooling horses to carry riders in the most advantageous way to compensate for the extra weight and building and stretching the right muscles. instead many horses i ride are extremely heavy on the forehand or evade the contact completely and have no concept of self carriage without leaning on the hands sometimes even for balance.
Why are we not schooling horses to work better and why does this not seem to be penalised in competition?
Any way rant over any opinions greatly appreciated including thouse on gadget used that created over bent horses for example i don't understand instructors teaching clients with their horses in draw reins isn't that what the riders contact should be doing in a much better way or learning to do but that is an entirely different rant
 
Although I agree with you that you do come across horses that are photographed this way in adverts, I am not so sure these are professionally schooled horses as such. None of my instructors have ever taught me this way, indeed we've tried really hard to get F out of this habit and it does get penalised in BD competitions. The only other thing I can think of is that a photo is merely a moment in time and perhaps some of these photos just capture the horse at the wrong moment and the seller isn't aware of how incorrect this is.

Just out of interest, the horses I have ridden which were BTV were also very light in the mouth, not leaning on the contact. I would describe a heavy horse as a horse that's on the forehand and I have ridden horses that were that way without being BTV. I also don't agree that it's always a result of the use of draw reins, some horses are naturally tight in the neck and BTV, exactly as others are on the forehand.
 
I have been horse-hunting recently and have also noticed this in a lot of ads. It does seem to be especially common for a couple of dealers that advertise on Horsemart a lot, the horses (often youngsters) are photographed with their necks hauled right in which only emphasises the fact that they don't have the correct muscle development. I think there is a misguided feeling of pressure to produce horses that can work in an 'outline', and this is what creates the horses you describe - heavy on the forehand and that don't understand how to work correctly from behind and over the back.
 
Ah maybe I misunderstood 'professionals' - I assumed it meant professional dressage riders, but if it means dealers then I think some people think it's a quick fix for an outline and unfortunately some buyers are fooled by it.
 
:) yeah i think that was who i was refering to mainly although you do see it in warm up rings at lot especially show jumping i do think though a lot of people these day don't understand what a proper outline is. Does anyone have some really good exercises they can suggest for getting horses fit and off theforehand as have recently taken on a very unfit pony?
 
For off the forehand try a lot of transitions, many, many more than you would normally do! I stay on a circle and count how many I can do in one circle, then try to fit in one more in. Try also varying the transitions, e.g. walk/trot, then halt, then trot, then walk, halt, walk, trot, etc. so that he's on his toes and listening to you more. In your riding try to do little mini-give-and-retakes with the reins just to say, "carry yourself, and if you don't, I won't carry you!" When he is a bit sharper to the leg try varying within a pace, so 5 strides of more collected trot, then 5 of more extended, but make sure he doesn't collapse in front when he extends or tighten when he collects.

If he is very unfit it may be best to hack him for a while to allow him to build some muscle, because realistically he may not be able to work off the forehand if he has little topline.
 
Thanks thats really helpful atm we are just hacking out lots of walking up hills going in a straight line and not rushing as he has been allowed to get away with blue murder as far as i can tell. will work in some transitions out hacking as currently no school either hopefully going to work up to a bit of showing in the summer as think could be very pretty under all the hair and podge :)
 
interestingly, one of our HHOers lives and competes in Warendorf, and iirc said that any horse even slightly behind the vertical is absolutely slated by the judges over there.
unfortunately i think a lot of people here are totally obsessed with the arch of the neck, and would rather see a horse going deep than with its nose slightly poking out - god forbid, because that means it isn't 'on the bit', so obv the rider is completely useless...! ;) ;) totally ignoring the engagement, softness of the back, connection, balance, etc etc.
please don't even get me started on the horrible feel in the hand of a horse who has been schooled in draw reins. yeuk.
oh, and of course, if you work a horse 'deep', then it's like rollkur, so you look like a real professional... ;) ;)
 
Unfortunately there are an awful lot of "professional" riders at top level who clearly dont understand the principle of leg into hand, whether that be in show jumping or dressage competition. I was watching fei dressage the other day and some of the horses looked lame, most of them could not do a decent walk and more often than not looked tense. When you watch the jumpers, the ones who ride well are the ones whos horses are moving forward into the bridle, they have much more control betwwen the fences and give the horses far more comfortable rides round. I have spent a bit of time in Germany and Holland and the horses are generally overbent and lacking topline (often overweight). And these poor 3 year old stallions taken to the stallion shows who are rammed up to the bridle, tense as buggery!
 
i could cry when i see a huge-moving elastic beautifully bred 3 year old going in a pretty-much GP outline, 'powerising' (my trainer's word, he hates it) around in a huge showing-off trot. there's no possible way they can have built up the musculature and strength to sustain that kind of outline at that age. :( :(
 
Can I just ask something? My gelding sometimes goes deep in the outline and behind the vertical, but is always working from behind and very soft in the hand. Will this be badly punished in dressage? (we are trying to get him more upright and more on the vertical than behind)
 
depends who's judging, i think. i remember a write-up years ago about a top rider taking a v good new prospect out and deliberately doing the entire test in a deep and low/round outline to give the horse confidence iirc, and getting very very good marks...
 
kerilli said:
please don't even get me started on the horrible feel in the hand of a horse who has been schooled in draw reins. yeuk.
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Just going to pick up on this, as it has annoyed me.

Draw reins have their uses. Our TB was schooled in them (and is still hacked in them occasionally) when he was first learning his trade. Every person who has got on him since (respected riders- including a 4* rider with a good rep) has commented on how well instilled the basics are, and how soft and straight he is and how willing he is to work into a firm, consistent contact. No one has asked if he has been schooled in draw reins. Not every horse will be incorrectly schooled in them.
 
Lolo said:
Just going to pick up on this, as it has annoyed me.

Draw reins have their uses. Our TB was schooled in them (and is still hacked in them occasionally) when he was first learning his trade. Every person who has got on him since (respected riders- including a 4* rider with a good rep) has commented on how well instilled the basics are, and how soft and straight he is and how willing he is to work into a firm, consistent contact. No one has asked if he has been schooled in draw reins. Not every horse will be incorrectly schooled in them.
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I can see your point and Kerillis. I would say although most gadgets can be used succesfully in the right hands if on the right horse that is not the norm. IMHO draw reins are often used by inexperienced people and often to get a quick fix. I don't doubt that you may have used them successfully but I'd put money on the fact that you were not trying to get a quick fix or cover up flaws?

Our new purchase rides like he has been ridden for a good while in draw reins in the past (not by previous owner). He is desperate to please when schooling and is a diamond but he really believes that you want him
BTV, it will take quite a bit of work to show him where we really want him to be almost harder than starting from scratch :)
 
What an interesting thread!
I could not agree more with Booboos especially what she or he stated regarding transitions which also includes transitions within the pace, e.g. extensions versus collection or even working tempi according to the age of the horse and/or ability of the rider. I am happy to hear that overbending is judged down in Germany still, though also not everywhere. Since there are so many internationally successful riders (some Germans included unfortunately) who win with that method it becomes dangerously common practice. Professionals (as Allover mentions) should know better and possess the capabilities to avoid overbending/rollkur as a method. Though it is true that some horses have the tendency to overbend, but that can be worked through by changing tempi frequently.
Young horses and any horse, which has been correctly educated will offer his self-carriage by himself once he has established the necessary balance. Therefore running reins and other gadgets have no place in proper riding as proper riding includes taking the time and respecting your partner. This however is often dumped for the sake of making money.
 
vikkiandmonica said:
Can I just ask something? My gelding sometimes goes deep in the outline and behind the vertical, but is always working from behind and very soft in the hand. Will this be badly punished in dressage? (we are trying to get him more upright and more on the vertical than behind)
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My boy Bruce likes to work deep and round - but sometimes he gets lazy and take it to an extreme (nose into chest)....I am aware he is not working into my hand and totally evading the contact; so half halts and pushing from the thighs and belly to bring him 'up'.

I know horses that work very up and tucked in, and others that work long and low and some that work deep and round....You just have to be really sure that your horse is working correctly and into a contact and not evading you, because 99% of judges can tell which is which!
 
iv totally confused myself now horse im riding atm (he's rising 7) is so heavy on the forehand and really leans when you try and pick him up and im sure hes not working properly from behind and it feels a bit to much like a battle and when i feel like hes going forward with a nice energy he looks like a donkey
i was reading a magazine the other day and every single pic the horse was massively behind the vertical and im not quite sure why
 
My very good instructor pointed out that as long as the horse (or pony) is working properly from behind and into the contact, a round and deep outline (even if it is behind the vertical) is permissible and in the short term does no damage. The horse (or pony) will eventually and voluntarily come up to an acceptable on/in front of the vertical quite of their own accord. Youngsters must be ridden sensitively and correctly and this is, I feel (unlike the riders with their lack of feel causing the problems ;) ) where broken neck syndrome starts.

And yes, it is awful to see :(
 
kerilli said:
interestingly, one of our HHOers lives and competes in Warendorf, and iirc said that any horse even slightly behind the vertical is absolutely slated by the judges over there.
unfortunately i think a lot of people here are totally obsessed with the arch of the neck, and would rather see a horse going deep than with its nose slightly poking out - god forbid, because that means it isn't 'on the bit', so obv the rider is completely useless...! ;) ;) totally ignoring the engagement, softness of the back, connection, balance, etc etc.
)
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I'm trying to teach Charisma's owners daughter about this! She has a new pony and is obsessed with 'it's head being in' but I am trying to get it through to her that that is completely false. But she is only 11 so it might take a few years ;)
 
kerilli said:
i could cry when i see a huge-moving elastic beautifully bred 3 year old going in a pretty-much GP outline, 'powerising' (my trainer's word, he hates it) around in a huge showing-off trot. there's no possible way they can have built up the musculature and strength to sustain that kind of outline at that age. :( :(
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I totally agree with what you are saying. Too much is expected too soon from these young dressage bred WBs. I know I have one who is mentally screwed up now and taking time off he should have had at 3 years old. Why are people so obsessed that a dressage horse has to be at x level at 4 years old and then x level by 7 etc etc. It's like a factory line up with no discretion given to the horses maturity, mentality etc.

And sadly there are 'professional trainers' just forcing an outline and buyers who can't tell the difference between a horse working properly from behind and one in a false outline.
My pet hate is riders with their hands down below the withers, blocking the shoulder and with a grip of iron forcing that bend in the neck!!! Madness.
 
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this is really interesting!
I'm a dressage girl and i ride wb alot.
I switch from long low and loose, to deep, competition outline.
I personally think that it is bad to work in one fixed outline all the time. horses must me alowed to stretch and they must always be working from behind. i think its the breaks and stretching which are very important.
as for gadgets, im not really a fan, i was once told, draw reins should only be used by an experienced good rider but a good experienced rider should not need draw reins. stuck with me.
 
starting to get interesting always been more of a jumping girl and you can really tell by my position but really getting into flatwork and dressage especially over the summer but have managed to totally confuse myself as to what should come first and what to look for just don't think it should be a battle i have bad enough shoulders as it is :)
 
Ha I was always more of a jumping girl and had the misforune to learn to ride in the 70s so all washing line reins and long necks!!!

In the 70s and 80s the only people's horses in an outline were the Schockemohle brothers whose horses looked almost mechanical compared to Graham Fletcher and Harvey Smiths horses with a high head carriage!
How things change eh? And of course showjumping has become so technical now to keep up with the powerful and collected horses who need something really challenging to jump.
 
I quite often drop my hands below the withers to try to stop my horse going round like a giraffe. Admittedly I don't have a grip of iron at the same time, but am I doing it wrong? It doesn seem to encourage him to lower his head.
 
puppystitch said:
I quite often drop my hands below the withers to try to stop my horse going round like a giraffe. Admittedly I don't have a grip of iron at the same time, but am I doing it wrong? It doesn seem to encourage him to lower his head.
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It's easy to get suckered into doing this by the horse. My mare used to ALWAYS go like a giraffe - I later found she had teeth issues and then after that was sorted remembered pain which was extremely frustrating. I now sometimes have to remind and 'ask' her gently to please ride to the contact through using my inside rein and taking it out and away a couple of feet and using my leg to ask her to come through with her back legs.
You have to just really try to forget about an 'outline' after warm up take up a good even and steady contact and ride your horse into the contact. The idea is that the horse will start working from behind swinging the back and seek out the contact. Hence if you have no contact there the horse has nothing to ride up to and seek and too much and you just get a bent neck and false outline. My mare still finds it hard to work properly - it's hard for a horse until they build up the correct back and neck muscles to carry themselves and the rider.
I have to give my mare lots of breaks and stretches in a schooling session (I need them too!!!) and she really appreciates that. As those muscles develop the self carriage becomes easier and you feel that light point where the horse just holds themselves completely.
If you can't afford lessons watch some top riders schooling on Youtube - lots of good and informative stuff on there.
Sorry I seem to have rambled there but I hope that makes a little sense - I am no expert!
 
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