Over bent young horses...

[Tnavas]

IMO, a lot depends on the type of overbent. Smokes goes deep and his head is behind the vertical more often than not. This is because he's learning to use himself and really work over his back into the contact, and currently getting him to soften his jaw and swing through is more important than him going in a more advanced frame. If he's working in a soft and relaxed way and isn't sucking behind the bit then Al gladly lets him dictate where his balance is for that right now. As he develops those muscles more and becomes stronger then she'll ask for more lift in front. But rushing that would just stop the really lovely softness he's developing.

And while I do agree overbent is bad, you need the bigger picture.

Can't agree with this - going overbent at any time is not good - it is the hardest thing to correct - long and low with the nose slightly in front of the vertical is the correct way.

If your horse is overbent - release some rein and ride forward more.

To the OP - I think that many go overbent because they are totally unaware that they are doing so - I teach that my riders must be able to see the poll at all times (from their upright riding position) - if it vanishes the horse is generally going overbent.

 

[windand rain]

I have a young pony that has never had a side rein, balancing rein, flash noseband draw rein or any other form of gadget attached either in ridden or on the lunge work and to some eyes she is overbent it is just her way of going she has a super sensitive mouth that if you are not gentle with she will run through and panic She works round and through from behind and I have yet to see her drop onto her forehand. Still it takes all sorts to make a world and when we showed her last year the judge was saying she was overbent and putting her down the line until she rode her and moved her straight to the top

 

[Tnavas]

I have a young pony that has never had a side rein, balancing rein, flash noseband draw rein or any other form of gadget attached either in ridden or on the lunge work and to some eyes she is overbent it is just her way of going she has a super sensitive mouth that if you are not gentle with she will run through and panic She works round and through from behind and I have yet to see her drop onto her forehand. Still it takes all sorts to make a world and when we showed her last year the judge was saying she was overbent and putting her down the line until she rode her and moved her straight to the top

Your ponys reaction to contact is because as yet she is not confident in the contact she has on her mouth. By lunging her in side reins you can help her overcome the reaction and become confident and she will stop dropping behind the bit.

Have reins equal length and quite loose to start with - don't use donut reins as they bounce and annoy. Mine don't have elastic - that's how I like them. I adjust so that they just come in contact when the horse is standing to attention - initially you may need them looser.

Fix lunge line to a proper lunge cavesson otherwise you will not have a happy pony - lunging off the bit creates problems as it changes the lie and action of the bit. Work her into the contact - so that she reaches down and forwards into the rein.

 

[Billy the kid]

Can't agree with this - going overbent at any time is not good - it is the hardest thing to correct - long and low with the nose slightly in front of the vertical is the correct way.

If your horse is overbent - release some rein and ride forward more.

To the OP - I think that many go overbent because they are totally unaware that they are doing so - I teach that my riders must be able to see the poll at all times (from their upright riding position) - if it vanishes the horse is generally going overbent.

I used to ride a young horse that naturally carried himself overbent, its one of the hardest things to correct IMO, i was always trying to get him up! Dressage judges always noticed and marked me down 'over bent' in every comment box! I agree long and low is best for young horses, i try to ride my horse in this fashion and warm up doing what i call 'Hoovering the floor!' and then start to pick him up into an outline. Some do seem to naturally favour going behind the bit, id much rather work with a horse that pokes its nose a little, i just find that easier to work with.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Always the convenient way to win a debate, isn't it?! Start throwing insults at the people you are debating against!

In my education and experience, I do not need to overbend my horses to educate them to go correctly. It's my opinion, I am entititled to it, just as you are to yours. But people making statements which infer that horse BTV is not on the forehand, or that you havr to ride it BTV for it to become supple and relaxed are, in my opinion, worthy or being challenged.

nope.
just saying that those that know best, that have access to the top trainers and lottery funded extra help, know how to get the best, most consistent results across hundreds of horses with hundreds of different problems and if this did not work, it would not still be being used.

also, and this too is NOT a dig-it does depend on the level you are aiming at: what has been submissive enough and supple enough to get CS a lot of good marks up to PSG, is simply not submissive enough or supple enough now we are seriously looking toward GP-ive had to take a step back and fill a few holes and make sure he is equally submissive to the hand and leg and yes that has included some deeper than usual work, but not by force i hasten to add.

(and a caveat -unless people are competing, im wary of them saying well im schooling XYZ level at home and never do this, because the pressure that a ring, a judge and a set test adds is huge and the horse needs to be far more on the aids than at home when you can circle away or try again, and i genuinely think that some people who never compete, dont *get* that, having never experienced it. So its not a snobbery thing, but a reality thing.)

 

[TheMule]

But why is submission linked to BTV? For me, the submissive horse is beautifully still on the vertical, supple to lateral bending and light in the hand.
Btw, I do compete, all be it in eventing, though I have trained with a number of those top International people you refer to in your opening comment and none has ever told me to ride BTV

 

[Megibo]

and that IMO is wrong. from the very first time you sit on your 3yo at backing yous hould be asking for an appropriate outline. The horse must learn to be submissive to the leg (ie stay in fron of it) and also submissive to the hand (not gob and yob and lean or pull). By allowing your horse to work in an un-structured manner for any length of time youa re setting yourself up for a huge battle of wills later on.

i ride a lot of horses for other people, all types and from all different ways of schooling. Those that have been allowed to plow round with no submission to the hand i will put deep and to hell with being BTV. when they learn to not to seperate my shoulders from my body i will then concentrate on bringing them more uphill.

there is a reason 99% of dressage riders do some sort of deep/btv work. because it works, because it gymnastisises (SP?) the horses, relaxes them, makes them supple,makes them rideable etc.

Excuse me? She's is responsive to the leg and always in front of it never lazy at all. She does not 'gob and yob and lean or pull' either! I am doing suppling and circles and balance work with her etc she may drop round naturally whilst we are doing this but never do I ask for it YET. I can stop her using my seat. If you had read my post, you'd know that she has already been see-sawed by the previous people and due to this she ducks behind the contact. I want her to take the contact forward happily which is she learning to do at the moment.
She does not plow around with no submission to the hand thankyou. As I have said, we are soon to start lessons and I'll let my instuctor decide the best pace to go with her. She's improved massively in the 4 months I've had her, so clearly I'm doing something right!

ETA I think long and low is far more beneficial than being ridden 'deep and to hell' pulled behind the vertical.

 

[Tnavas]

But why is submission linked to BTV? For me, the submissive horse is beautifully still on the vertical, supple to lateral bending and light in the hand.
Btw, I do compete, all be it in eventing, though I have trained with a number of those top International people you refer to in your opening comment and none has ever told me to ride BTV

Totally agree!

BTV is a resistant horse!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Excuse me? She's is responsive to the leg and always in front of it never lazy at all. She does not 'gob and yob and lean or pull' either! I am doing suppling and circles and balance work with her etc she may drop round naturally whilst we are doing this but never do I ask for it YET. I can stop her using my seat. If you had read my post, you'd know that she has already been see-sawed by the previous people and due to this she ducks behind the contact. I want her to take the contact forward happily which is she learning to do at the moment.
She does not plow around with no submission to the hand thankyou. As I have said, we are soon to start lessons and I'll let my instuctor decide the best pace to go with her. She's improved massively in the 4 months I've had her, so clearly I'm doing something right!

ETA I think long and low is far more beneficial than being ridden 'deep and to hell' pulled behind the vertical.

i didnt actually crit your horse in particular, i mean generic you, sorry if that wasnt clear.

but in reponse to your repsonse-why are you not asking her to work in to a correct(for her age/level for schooling) outline?

why is it a bad thing to teach her to step from the hind leg in to the hand? if it is such a sin to take a heavy hollow horse and put it BTV to correct, is it not also a sin to take a BTV horse to the point of being strung out to correct it?

 

[Megibo]

i didnt actually crit your horse in particular, i mean generic you, sorry if that wasnt clear.

but in reponse to your repsonse-why are you not asking her to work in to a correct(for her age/level for schooling) outline?

why is it a bad thing to teach her to step from the hind leg in to the hand? if it is such a sin to take a heavy hollow horse and put it BTV to correct, is it not also a sin to take a BTV horse to the point of being strung out to correct it?

Oops, then I apologise. I've had enough stick for getting a 'big cob' to compete on eventually anyway so took it personally.
She is 5 this year and has only hunted or been bombed over jumps/up grass tracks so when I got her schooling was non existent. I've got her to the point where she can now do 10/15/20 m circles in trot and get the right canter in the school correctly etc. And of course overbending less. I'm now getting my instructor in to take us and her schooling further than I could do alone, so no doubt she will help in deciding the correct way of going for the individual horse.

ETA-I'm working on her topline hence the long and low work and lots of hacking which is why I'm not that upset about whether or not she has her head down and round at the moment. Have been fixing the damage done by the dealers and we are just now ready to move on to such work

 

[windand rain]

Wont be lunging mine any time soon I hate it and the pressure on young joints is very detrimental. So sorry no side reins for mine I will stick with softly asking her to open out and not go behind the vertical.
The other youngster is totally the opposite and goes along most comfortably with its nose in the air so it is not the training but their natural way of going that has to be gently schooled to correct it

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I always love these topics each camp points out how they have to fix the ignorant. Horses come to hand differently is all I will say. I am not an articulate person so I won't ever dazzle you with my words on how I fix things. But I will address the racehorse thing quickly. If I started getting on something that was behind the verticle and avoiding contact then I used to spend my time in jog/trot working on a bit of lateral stuff. Softening of my hands ect. These were older ones I was allowed to work with. When the running started in a race those horses usually had their heads up flailing around and no power behind. Sometimes these horses had issues behind. So for me head up in the air or way overbent is equally not good. Most of it comes in time with competent riding. Again i'm probably not putting this across well and I'm sure it will be ripped apart. I just try to take them as they come.

Terri

 

[oldie48]

Whatever has happened to Armas? i miss his videos and would love to know how he's getting on. Please post if you read this.

I bet Armas is sitting on his hands reading this

 

[Dizzy socks]

Whatever has happened to Armas? i miss his videos and would love to know how he's getting on. Please post if you read this.

I think he was banned for that thread in clubhouse....

 

[_GG_]

I always love these topics each camp points out how they have to fix the ignorant. Horses come to hand differently is all I will say. I am not an articulate person so I won't ever dazzle you with my words on how I fix things. But I will address the racehorse thing quickly. If I started getting on something that was behind the verticle and avoiding contact then I used to spend my time in jog/trot working on a bit of lateral stuff. Softening of my hands ect. These were older ones I was allowed to work with. When the running started in a race those horses usually had their heads up flailing around and no power behind. Sometimes these horses had issues behind. So for me head up in the air or way overbent is equally not good. Most of it comes in time with competent riding. Again i'm probably not putting this across well and I'm sure it will be ripped apart. I just try to take them as they come.

Terri

Yep...it's a horses for courses thing. I said in a previous comment, this is just one method. The method I use depends on the horse I am riding, not the preconceived idea I have in my head.


BTW, nice to see you back on here

 

[Pongwiffy]

Totally agree!

BTV is a resistant horse!

I am not sure about this. Yes horses actively use BTV or curling up as an evasion or resistance by refuse to take any contact but any resistance will affect how the rest of the horse works too.

I have a photo of my horse which shows him quite BTV, slightly low in the poll with quite a long neck. I was gutted when I saw the pic as I remember that particular trot had felt great at the time. The contact had felt nice and elastic and the trot was active, rhythmical and he had been really swinging along in a relaxed way. If I look at the rest of the picture minus his head I like it and I certainly didn't feel any at the time.

When he is being resistant he braces against the contact, shortens and sets his neck which results in disconnection from front to back. The tension is obvious in the bulgy underneck, dropped back and trailing back end. Plus the contact feels heavy and wooden and his trot is no longer comfortable to sit to.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

GG you should know how I feel about your horse skills - total class! Just make them better however it works best or don't screw up the good already there. That's my motto.

Good to be back. Not so many issues with the forum now which is great.

Terri

 

[_GG_]

I am not sure about this. Yes horses actively use BTV or curling up as an evasion or resistance by refuse to take any contact but any resistance will affect how the rest of the horse works too.

I have a photo of my horse which shows him quite BTV, slightly low in the poll with quite a long neck. I was gutted when I saw the pic as I remember that particular trot had felt great at the time. The contact had felt nice and elastic and the trot was active, rhythmical and he had been really swinging along in a relaxed way. If I look at the rest of the picture minus his head I like it and I certainly didn't feel any at the time.

When he is being resistant he braces against the contact, shortens and sets his neck which results in disconnection from front to back. The tension is obvious in the bulgy underneck, dropped back and trailing back end. Plus the contact feels heavy and wooden and his trot is no longer comfortable to sit to.

And did you feel 'lifted' in that trot? Like the moment of suspension was a little greater and you felt more on top of your horse rather than sitting down into him?

The trot you describe is what I refer to and low and deep. Deep to me isn't chin on chest. Deep just means low and BTV and stretching means low and in front of the vertical. The low and in front of vertical work usually is just stretchy. The low and BTV work is when most horses begin to totally relax and swing through the back. You don't put them there, they put themselves there...all you do as a rider is use a little soft flexion to release the tension.

I don't understand why there is sometimes such an insistence that BTV is always a bad thing or always means that there is something lacking in the contact. Most BTV positions are bad yes, but not all.

 

[Tnavas]

Wont be lunging mine any time soon I hate it and the pressure on young joints is very detrimental. So sorry no side reins for mine I will stick with softly asking her to open out and not go behind the vertical.
The other youngster is totally the opposite and goes along most comfortably with its nose in the air so it is not the training but their natural way of going that has to be gently schooled to correct it

Lunging sensibly is not a strain on the joints and if you are riding your horse/pony at shows it must be at least a 4 year old or more - so not that young.

Lunging is a good foundation for any horse/pony - especially with side reins.

All the time you ride with her curling up and not taking the contact you are cementing a bad habit.

To date I've not managed to wreck the joints of any horse/pony I have prepared and broken in - mine are taught to lunge correctly - under control at all times and all have worked in a lovely frame with a soft consistent contact.

 

[Pongwiffy]

And did you feel 'lifted' in that trot? Like the moment of suspension was a little greater and you felt more on top of your horse rather than sitting down into him?

The trot you describe is what I refer to and low and deep. Deep to me isn't chin on chest. Deep just means low and BTV and stretching means low and in front of the vertical. The low and in front of vertical work usually is just stretchy. The low and BTV work is when most horses begin to totally relax and swing through the back. You don't put them there, they put themselves there...all you do as a rider is use a little soft flexion to release the tension.

I don't understand why there is sometimes such an insistence that BTV is always a bad thing or always means that there is something lacking in the contact. Most BTV positions are bad yes, but not all.

Yup that's is exactly how it felt. I noticed (being the kind of geek that will watch videos frame by frame to try and understand exactly what is going on/wrong) that in this particular photo the cannon of the thrusting hind leg is almost horizontal to the ground which I guess is what provides the feeling of lift? His raised front leg also had more upwards reach than just forwards. I compared it to other pics of him tracking up in trot with a more open hock angle and the result is a forward,pleasant but less springy trot.

Tension and resistance can be very obvious to an onlooker but a rider can feel the most subtle or fleeting moment of resistance so personally I think you need to judge things by how they feel?

I guess the ideal is to get the swing, the lift and power with an nice open throatlatch and high poll but if a horse could do all this from the word go surely he'd have to be pretty talented! I doubt all this lift and swing comes simply from having the perfect IFV profile as that would just be riding front to back in a different form!

 

[Booboos]

What?! Most of the horse BTV are also on the forehand, surely you're not saying they arent when they're BTV?

Yes I am saying that a horse that is BTV cannot be on the forehand, which is not my theory but pretty well discussed stuff, e.g. by Kyra Kyrklund or Dr H for example.

I suspect there may be two accounts of what BTV is here. For me (and as it is understood by KK in her book and Dr H in his) a horse that is BTV has a hollow back, short neck, high head carriage and the nose is BTV with the reins loose and not making proper contact between the bit and the hand. By definition the horse will be off the forehand in such a position as the weight is too much off the front shoulders. A horse that is on the forehand may also have its nose tucked in but that is not correctly described as BTV (by trainers, judges, etc.). Dr H has some very helpful diagrams and photos on this (where by the way he does say that this kind of BTV is a lot worse than rollkur because the back is hollow but no one seems interested in that point as it's not controvercial).