Over feeding of oats - owner insisting

[Evergreen]

One of my part liveries is a huge 17 hh WB mare whose owner likes her 'popping'. On owners insistance she is fed 1 scoop Alfa A, half scoop quiet cubes, 1 scoop comp mix and one scoop oats twice daily plus ad lib haylage. When she first arrived on my yard I put her on what I consider the normal diet for a horse of her type (1 scoop alpha A and 1 scoop quiet mix twice daily). She does not compete but is schooled for up to an hour four or five times a week. Owner very nicely complained that she was too 'dead to the leg' and needed more 'oomph'. Hence the new diet.

Problem is, she is being fed this every day whether or not she is being ridden. Sometimes owner does not ride for 3 or 4 days in a row. Secondly, I also have to ride this mare 2 - 3 days a week and she is so spooky it's pretty scarey riding her as her spooks consist of massive sideways leaps followed by an attempt to bolt accross the arena. Owner loves her being like this and does not want her 'lazy'.

I have talked to the owner, and she insists, this is how her mare has always been and how she likes her. I would not mind if she was the only one riding the horse or if the horse was doing the work that I would deem compatable with the amount of high energy food she is being fed. I was wondering whether I should only feed this amount of oats and comp mix on the days the owner rides and the rest of the time replace the oats with more quiet cubes on the days I ride or the horse has day off? I know this would be healthier for the horse, but would it be ethical? Probably not.

 

[flying solo]

I wouldn't want to give different feeds on different days. Cant be good for the horse? If the horse was that bad I would refuse to ride it because my safety is more important.

 

[Waffles]

Wouldn't that kind of diet risk causing azoturia if she's not worked regularly? An hour of schooling is hardly "work" anyway! I truly believe that overfeeding is more cruel than underfeeding.

 

[Evergreen]

I wouldn't want to give different feeds on different days. Cant be good for the horse? If the horse was that bad I would refuse to ride it because my safety is more important.

Well the feed would not be different as such, just the portions of each altered, but I take your point. I am thinking of refusing to ride her but I know the owner really struggles to get the time and feel I would be letting her down. However, my safety is very important, especially as I have no staff. Anyway, just going out to ride the girlie now. Just pleased it's not quite so windy as yesterday.

 

[Angua2]

Those feeds sound huge!! can the amounts, rather than content be adjusted.

 

[Evergreen]

Wouldn't that kind of diet risk causing azoturia if she's not worked regularly? An hour of schooling is hardly "work" anyway! I truly believe that overfeeding is more cruel than underfeeding.

Yes, I agree! I have tried to explain that the reason the mare became lazier when she came to my yard was that she was on 24/7 turnout after having no turnout at all for two years and that she was just 'chilled'. I am hoping that once they come in at night, she will naturally become more forward going without the high energy feed and I will be able to give her a slower release energy feed without her becoming lazy. Fingers crossed.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Can't you persuade the owner that the horse needs to be fed for the amount of work it's doing. If it's not being worked then it gets minimal feed. I strugglr to get my head around feeding it 'quiet cubes' & also Oats??? Surely one counteracts the other?

This seems to be a bit of 'my mare has always been fed this so she should stay on theis'. The feeding regime needs to be reviewed.

 

[Evergreen]

Those feeds sound huge!! can the amounts, rather than content be adjusted.

Yes, they are at least twice the size of any of the other horses and certainly not the way I would choose to feed. Maybe if I do what you suggest and just give a smaller feed on the days I ride or the horse has off? That sounds like a workable solution. Thanks!

 

[Waffles]

Yes - slightly off the point here, but I've often witnessed people feeding competition mix (they go to a show about once a month) then feeding some sort of "steady up" supplement. They will then get stronger and stronger bits, flash nosebands, martingales and all that, then buy spurs to make them go. Puzzling.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Personally if I was YO I'd give it to the girl straight that if she's expecting other people to ride it and its fizzing to the point of potentially being dangerous, then that's a health and safety issue and that if owner isn't prepared to compromise and be sensible about it then she's perfectly at liberty to take her horse away to somewhere else where she's on DIY perhaps and responsible totally for the horse herself!!

Sorry, but no way would I endanger myself, or expect anyone else to, on a horse that is potentially going to explode and/or be dangerous to ride simply because of a feeding issue.

I don't think its fair for the owner to expect it.

 

[Mike007]

. When she first arrived on my yard I put her on what I consider the normal diet for a horse of her type (1 scoop alpha A and 1 scoop quiet mix twice daily). .

Crikey no wonder the owner has over reacted a bit ! Quiet mixes and Quiet cubes are just a way of giving them enough vitamins and minerals and stopping them kicking the door!In terms of energy you might as well just give an extra slice of hay. Same goes for the Alfa A.

 

[Waffles]

Well said!

 

[Damnation]

Perhaps explain to the owner that horses can only digest a certain amount of feed at a time because their stomachs are small. That amount of feed will just be expensive poo
Maybe that will convince her to lower the feed.
I would also hint that being "dead to the leg" isn't a feed issue but a schooling issue.

 

[Mike007]

Perhaps explain to the owner that horses can only digest a certain amount of feed at a time because their stomachs are small. That amount of feed will just be expensive poo
Maybe that will convince her to lower the feed.
I would also hint that being "dead to the leg" isn't a feed issue but a schooling issue.

Well thats easily sorted ,get rid of the quiet cubes.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Suggest she enter a dressage comp, this will sort out the "I want to sit on a popping Warmblood" issue.

 

[TGM]

Well if the owner is so keen for you to ride the horse, she is likely to want to help find a solution to the problem. I would have a chat with her and suggest several possible options:

1. Horse's diet stays the same and you cease riding her. (By the sound of things she won't like this).

2. Horse's diet stays the same, and you lunge the horse instead of riding it.

3. You continue to ride the horse and some changes are made to the diet to give it controllable energy.

Hopefully she will go for option 3, as the current diet does sound like it needs altering, particularly as the size of the feeds is too big, and it seems weird to feed quiet cubes and oats/competition mix at the same time! Can you not swap the cubes/mix/oats for something like Spiller's Response Slow Release Cubes/Mix which gives a good level of calories for work, but lower in cereals than traditional competition feeds so less 'explosive' in effect?

 

[JFTDWS]

Yes - slightly off the point here, but I've often witnessed people feeding competition mix (they go to a show about once a month) then feeding some sort of "steady up" supplement. They will then get stronger and stronger bits, flash nosebands, martingales and all that, then buy spurs to make them go. Puzzling.

Hilarious. Just what I needed to remind me why I mistrust horsey people (present company excepted, naturally )

Don't see the point of the quiet cubes tbh. Could you not compromise on competition mix OR oats - seems a bit of a leap to add both at the same time? Failing that, refuse to ride it. If I paid for livery, I would be furious if a YO claimed to be feeding what I asked, but wasn't when I wasn't there, no matter how sensible the reason...

 

[jeeve]

[QUOTE I was wondering whether I should only feed this amount of oats and comp mix on the days the owner rides and the rest of the time replace the oats with more quiet cubes on the days I ride or the horse has day off? I know this would be healthier for the horse, but would it be ethical? Probably not.[/QUOTE]

I personally think this might be the best option.

 

[bumblelion]

Don't see the point of the quiet cubes tbh. Could you not compromise on competition mix OR oats - seems a bit of a leap to add both at the same time? Failing that, refuse to ride it. If I paid for livery, I would be furious if a YO claimed to be feeding what I asked, but wasn't when I wasn't there, no matter how sensible the reason...

^^^this^^^^^^

 

[Natch]

On owners insistance she is fed 1 scoop Alfa A, half scoop quiet cubes, 1 scoop comp mix and one scoop oats twice daily plus ad lib haylage.

She does not compete but is schooled for up to an hour four or five times a week.

So the horse is in light work but fed as if in hard work - such a common story. If you are not happy to rid the hore with its current energy levels, you need to say so.

The type, and volume of feed will present health problems to this mare. Azotouria as someone else has mentioned, and all that starch going through the stomach as soon as it is swallowed (for the stomach is not big enough to hold this size of feed, so it'll just be pushed straight through) and breaking down in the hindgut, killing off all the good balanced bacteria, causing prolific breeding of other types... its a recipe for laminitis and/or colic.

Crikey no wonder the owner has over reacted a bit ! Quiet mixes and Quiet cubes are just a way of giving them enough vitamins and minerals and stopping them kicking the door!In terms of energy you might as well just give an extra slice of hay. Same goes for the Alfa A.

The horse shouldn't need extra energy, it is in light work! Its a schooling not a feeding issue, IMHO, although I'll bet the owner doesn't see it that way.

I would just seriously try to convince the owner to feed less in volume for now - try half portions of what she is fed currently.

 

[PolarSkye]

One of my part liveries is a huge 17 hh WB mare whose owner likes her 'popping'. On owners insistance she is fed 1 scoop Alfa A, half scoop quiet cubes, 1 scoop comp mix and one scoop oats twice daily plus ad lib haylage.

She gets WHAT?

Crikey.

My boy (16.2hh WB/sporthorse (depending on who you ask!)) works 5-6 days per week and gets a fraction of that! If I fed him that much, he'd be off his rocker.

Kal - a poor doing sort on middling grazing, out at night, gets:

1/4 scoop Alfa A twice a day
1/4 scoop Blue Chip twice a day
haylage breakfast and lunchtime
he also has a munch on his bed (straw) between whiles b/c he's a greedy sort and sometimes gets those Badminton Horse Treats in a treat ball

I do think you're in a tight spot - it's not up to you what the owner feeds her horse (no matter how inappropriate) but it IS up to you whether you believe the mare is safe to ride. I think your only option is to refuse to ride the mare . . . while I think you're perfectly correct in your assessment of the mare's feed, I don't think you're in a position to change her feed .

P

 

[martlin]

I'm in two minds here, really. On one hand, it's not OP's horse and what she deems appropriate to feed it is a bit irrelevant, on the other, she needs to ride it, too :\
I have no idea what ''quiet cubes'' are and what they are supposed to do, neither do we know how big a scoop is Judging a horse's feed in kgs would be much more useful I think.
Anyway, after that rambling, if I were OP, I would refuse to ride the horse possibly, but certainly wouldn't change the diet behind owner's back.

 

[ester]

It might be a schooling issue however personal experience has recently proved that a few oats certainly assist!

If I were the livery owner I would want you to be following what I wanted to feed, (even if in this case that's not wrong) if you are then not happy riding the horse then say so and leave it to the owner/suggest they find someone else happy to ride it.

 

[PolarSkye]

Yes - slightly off the point here, but I've often witnessed people feeding competition mix (they go to a show about once a month) then feeding some sort of "steady up" supplement. They will then get stronger and stronger bits, flash nosebands, martingales and all that, then buy spurs to make them go. Puzzling.

This! I actually had this conversation with a YO once - she wanted me to put Kal on the yard feed and then actually said "well if it hots him up we can always give him a high dose of calmer . . .!!!!" Um. No. I also think people like the "idea" of feeding competition mix . . . somehow sounds better than "safe and sound" . . . KWIM? Also wonder if they enjoy having all the gear - makes them look the part?

P

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm in two minds here, really. On one hand, it's not OP's horse and what she deems appropriate to feed it is a bit irrelevant.

Actually, is it irrelevant? People on here are always going off on one about how the YO / YM has duty of care to horses on their yards (not that, ime, many of them seem to try to do anything about the obese horses / cruelty cases on their yards).

I stand by my earlier statement that if I found a YO had not been feeding what I requested, I would be furious. But if what I requested is likely to cause serious detriment to the health of the horse, does the YO have a responsibility to either refuse to feed it that (to the owner's face, not just not do it behind her back) or kick the horse and owner off the yard?

 

[Evergreen]

Crikey no wonder the owner has over reacted a bit ! Quiet mixes and Quiet cubes are just a way of giving them enough vitamins and minerals and stopping them kicking the door!In terms of energy you might as well just give an extra slice of hay. Same goes for the Alfa A.

I think for a horse out on grass and aditional haylage (ad lib as the grass is poor) and only being worked a maximum of 5 hours schooling or hacking a week, that two meals of a scoop of alpha a and a scoop of cool/quiet mix is perfectly adequate! All my others do really well on that feeding regime (the fatties get less). When I asked for what the horse was being fed at the previous yard, it was very similar (almost identical in fact). The only difference id that the mare now has turnout, and this chilled her out. The owner does not like the chilled out version of her mare and so asked for me to up the feed to what she is being fed now. I don't charge her extra for this.

 

[Evergreen]

Thanks, everyone. I think I am going to have to have a serious conversation with the owner. Horse was popping out of her skin today in this wind and so I had to lunge her for 20 minutes before getting on. I have to say also that I find her very foreward going (even when she was on the lower energy diet) but I think maybe her 'Mum' likes a bit more excitement. She's a really nice lady but has some strange ideas sometimes. I am concerned for the health of the horse and I think this is the way I should tackle it. Thank you all so much for verifying what I was thinking.

 

[jenz87]

We feed our wb 1 bowl scoop of alfa a, 1 bowl scoop of c&c, and 1 bowl scoop of barley twice a day. We turnout in the day and feed hayledge at night.

He eats an awful lot, but he is not bounding about trying to kill people, every horse is different!

 

[Nagling]

Well if the owner is so keen for you to ride the horse, she is likely to want to help find a solution to the problem. I would have a chat with her and suggest several possible options:

1. Horse's diet stays the same and you cease riding her. (By the sound of things she won't like this).

2. Horse's diet stays the same, and you lunge the horse instead of riding it.

3. You continue to ride the horse and some changes are made to the diet to give it controllable energy.

Hopefully she will go for option 3, as the current diet does sound like it needs altering, particularly as the size of the feeds is too big, and it seems weird to feed quiet cubes and oats/competition mix at the same time! Can you not swap the cubes/mix/oats for something like Spiller's Response Slow Release Cubes/Mix which gives a good level of calories for work, but lower in cereals than traditional competition feeds so less 'explosive' in effect?

This sounds like a good idea. I think this is a case of subtly trying to educate the owner and by giving her options it means she makes the decision rather than being told what to do. Its a difficult thing but at the end of the day your safety and the horses welfare are the most important things. Good luck

 

[Wolfie]

I know quite a few people who like their horse to be explosive when they ride. That's up to them imo, as long as the horse is healthy and seems happy enough.

OP can you not explain your ridden concerns to the owner and suggest that you lunge the horse on the days when you usually ride? That way to the horse gets worked and you don;t get decked.