Over feeding of oats - owner insisting

Evergreen said:
One of my part liveries is a huge 17 hh WB mare whose owner likes her 'popping'. On owners insistance she is fed 1 scoop Alfa A, half scoop quiet cubes, 1 scoop comp mix and one scoop oats twice daily plus ad lib haylage. When she first arrived on my yard I put her on what I consider the normal diet for a horse of her type (1 scoop alpha A and 1 scoop quiet mix twice daily). She does not compete but is schooled for up to an hour four or five times a week. Owner very nicely complained that she was too 'dead to the leg' and needed more 'oomph'. Hence the new diet.

Problem is, she is being fed this every day whether or not she is being ridden. Sometimes owner does not ride for 3 or 4 days in a row. Secondly, I also have to ride this mare 2 - 3 days a week and she is so spooky it's pretty scarey riding her as her spooks consist of massive sideways leaps followed by an attempt to bolt accross the arena. Owner loves her being like this and does not want her 'lazy'.

I have talked to the owner, and she insists, this is how her mare has always been and how she likes her. I would not mind if she was the only one riding the horse or if the horse was doing the work that I would deem compatable with the amount of high energy food she is being fed. I was wondering whether I should only feed this amount of oats and comp mix on the days the owner rides and the rest of the time replace the oats with more quiet cubes on the days I ride or the horse has day off? I know this would be healthier for the horse, but would it be ethical? Probably not.
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I say mind your own business and feed the horse what the owner has requested! What a cheek, interferring with someone's animal!
 
JFTD said:
Actually, is it irrelevant? People on here are always going off on one about how the YO / YM has duty of care to horses on their yards (not that, ime, many of them seem to try to do anything about the obese horses / cruelty cases on their yards).

I stand by my earlier statement that if I found a YO had not been feeding what I requested, I would be furious. But if what I requested is likely to cause serious detriment to the health of the horse, does the YO have a responsibility to either refuse to feed it that (to the owner's face, not just not do it behind her back) or kick the horse and owner off the yard?
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yes, the YO has certain amount of duty of care, but overfeeding a bit feeds otherwise suitable for a horse is hardly a welfare case. There are as many opinions on what is good for the horse as there are horsey people...
 
I must confess that I have found many of the comments here ,frankly astonishing. The idea of altering a horses feed on a day to day basis depending on who will ride the horse is wrong on so many points. Also ,my experience is that if a horse is regularly getting enough energy they settle down and even giving extra feed has little if any effect on how they behave(In fact it usually makes them sluggish).They merely behave in a manner normal for that individual horse.These "quiet feeds " are not an aditional energy source. They merely substitute for hay or grass on a dry matter basis and dont really have much more energy either. I think the diet has been changed too quickly ,but it certainly needed changing .I am strongly against restricting a horses energy intake to "cosh"it into submission.
 
martlin said:
yes, the YO has certain amount of duty of care, but overfeeding a bit feeds otherwise suitable for a horse is hardly a welfare case. There are as many opinions on what is good for the horse as there are horsey people...
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Isn't it? Strictly speaking, we don't know the condition of the horse - it could be obese - granted, it seems unlikely from the description, but we don't know. Equally so, if the horse is being fed in such a way as to increase the likelihood of it developing a veterinary condition (as previous posters suggest), is this not a welfare case? Where do they draw the line? It's a fluffy business, this.
 
Tricky situation, but if trying to hint to the owner that the meal isn't suitable in your opinion & is too large in volume doesn't work, then I'd refuse to ride it. Not as a type of blackmail, but as a safety precaution to yourself.

If the feeding is seen as 'none of your business', the riding certainly is.

Also, did I read that you're not charging extra for this diet? I certainly would, for the extra she gets on top of the other horses' maintenance feed.
 
JFTD said:
Isn't it? Strictly speaking, we don't know the condition of the horse - it could be obese - granted, it seems unlikely from the description, but we don't know. Equally so, if the horse is being fed in such a way as to increase the likelihood of it developing a veterinary condition (as previous posters suggest), is this not a welfare case? Where do they draw the line? It's a fluffy business, this.
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I suppose it could be obese... but an additional scoop of oats, which will be about 1 kg will not, in the great scheme of things be solely responsible for the obesity ;) From the op, it seems that all the oats is resulting in is a bit of a bounce, lol, which is only YO welfare issue and can be solved by not riding said horse :D
It's a tricky business, I agree.
 
Evergreen said:
Thanks, everyone. I think I am going to have to have a serious conversation with the owner. Horse was popping out of her skin today in this wind and so I had to lunge her for 20 minutes before getting on. I have to say also that I find her very foreward going (even when she was on the lower energy diet) but I think maybe her 'Mum' likes a bit more excitement. She's a really nice lady but has some strange ideas sometimes. I am concerned for the health of the horse and I think this is the way I should tackle it. Thank you all so much for verifying what I was thinking.
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Ethically it would be wrong of you to change the feed without the owners knowledge or consent, but it would be quite correct of you to raise your concerns with the woman about the feeding she has requested. I would also think it very sensible if you refused to ride the horse if it's pinging off the walls like you say, if owner gets the hump and leaves well that's her choice, but there's no point putting yourself at risk when you have a yard to run, if you get hurt you are going to lose a hell of a lot more money than this one livery pays you I'm sure;)
 
martlin said:
I suppose it could be obese... but an additional scoop of oats, which will be about 1 kg will not, in the great scheme of things be solely responsible for the obesity ;) From the op, it seems that all the oats is resulting in is a bit of a bounce, lol, which is only YO welfare issue and can be solved by not riding said horse :D
It's a tricky business, I agree.
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2kg of oats a day would make mine obese in no time, even on mediocre grass and out naked :eek: But the OP does state it's a warm blood not a highland or a cob, so fair point ;) I would think that if it's on ad lib haylage and not worked much, even a warmblood could end up obese on that, depending on the individual, of course. But this is a digression...

I entirely agree - not riding the tigger-horse is probably the best solution :D
 
Wow I cannot believe some folk actually think a YO has the right to dictate what a horse eats, do you also think they should dictate what rugs? What bit they are ridden in?

Utter nonsense, yes a YO has a duty of care, but suggesting a YO can dictate a horses food isn't a duty of care, it is complete interference.

I would remove my horses from any yard that insisted on such interference.

OP talk to your livery, doing things behind their back will only result in you gaining an appalling reputation for interfering and not respecting your customers wishes.
 
My vet told me you feed for what they've done not what they might do so I wouldn't want to feed a horse that amount of feed, made me laugh whats the point of quiet cubes then giving oats and competition feed ?? Its a very unbalanced diet

Also if she is then not riding for 3-4 days in a rowand still feeding this type and amount of feed, its a prime candidate for tying up
 
I think what Mike007 is saying is a load of tosh. Of course you adjust the horses feed as to work done and why on earth would you feed a horse a high energy diet if it doesn't need energy. I suggest you read the rules of feeding in the pony club manual.

OP I think a conversation with the livery is all that's required. She can feed the horse what she wants and take the risk of it getting diseases like ERS but if you are the one who's sitting on it when it's about to explode then it is your issue.
Either she feeds it the same and you don't ride it and she finds someone else to ride it or she comes to some sort of compromise with the feed.
She's totally unbalancing the feed ration feeding straights and two different compound feeds.
If she wants to feed it a high energy mix then fine, she should just feed comp mix and Alfa. On her days it can have full rations on the other days when it's not in work or you are riding it then this can be cut down and it can have half rations. Stick a mineral lick in it's stable and then no worrys about that.

Of course you shouldn't change a horses feed but you should feed for the work by feeding the same food but upping it or dropping it depending.

Also Mike, if I fed my TB either oats for energy or just hay, he would be either off his rocker or thin and asleep. There is nothing wrong with feeding a pasture cube and they do have a higher DE than hay, hay usually is around 7 if it's OK hay, higher if it's brilliant and a Pasture cube as a digestible energy of around 10 megajoules and a comp mix has around 13. Actually also Allen and Page 'quiet mix' is 30% starch which is the same starch as Tigre Oats.
There's a lot more to feed than just hay and oats.
ERS as a disease used to be called Monday Morning disease as racehorses would get in the day after the day off, because of having a full grain ration on a day when they didn't need it. hence feeding for work done.
 
Cripes! :eek:

If I had fed mine that many oats I may as well ride Pegasus! :D

FWIW mine stayed at the vets for 3 nights, and went from 24/7 turn out to 24/7 stabled. He only gets a small token feed anyway, and the vets just fed him whatever they had. The whole changing feed thing I think is a bit of a myth really. A concentrate feed should be a proportionately small amount of whatever the horse is eating on a daily basis (hay/grass etc) so why would it matter if you changed it? Some horses (such a hunt horses I think) will have hard feeds, then a bran mash after a hard days work - don't think this ever harmed them :)
 
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I must say i would interfere if i thought I was in danger handling it/riding it or the livery really did not understand feeding and there was going to be an accident !!

I have been on the other side of this twice where i fed a livery what the owner wanted - one ended up nearly dead on teh road and the other ended up with laminitus all because i did what i was asked though i knew it was wrong
 
NOISYGIRL said:
My vet told me you feed for what they've done not what they might do
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I've been told completely the opposite (!) You feed for what they are about to do, not what they've just done. Its the same for people.You don't carb-load after a race, do you? Makes more sense to me this way around...

another example of the conflicting world of horse management!
 
I know many feed companies will do free nutritional consultations for yards with a few horses, I think Baileys and Spillers do off the top of my head. They will probably promote their own products, but they will give a good guide as to what the horse should be getting which might give the owner an idea of what her horse needs and it would make it a sociable event rather than a lecture.

If that isn't an option then I'd express my concerns and refuse to ride if your safety is an issue. I'd certainly charge for the additional feed though.
 
As a yard owner I will interfere with the feed a horse is being given if it makes my role as a yard owner impossible or dangerous. I have had one horse here that the owner insisted needed 3 scoops of comp mix twice a day to put weight on. I went to put the head collar on in the stable and it was climbing the walls, i was thrown around the stable by it and it became impossible to handle and lead out to the field, it was also kicking hell out of its stable. That affected me. I turn all the livery horses out every morning - part and DIY. I insisted that if I was to handle it then we needed to rethink its diet as it was out of its mind on current feed. I changed it to a basic grass nut, added in linseed and brewers yeast along with beet. Once the horse had got rid of all the comp mix it started to chill out, then it started to gain weight and have controllable energy. THen we added in feed that was suitable for the level of work and its mental state. if the OP is being affected at all by the behaviour of the horse, then of course she is perfectly entitled to chane its feed - but that does need discussing with the owner. If she refuses then she has a choice - leave.
 
amycamycamyc said:
I've been told completely the opposite (!) You feed for what they are about to do, not what they've just done. Its the same for people.You don't carb-load after a race, do you? Makes more sense to me this way around...

another example of the conflicting world of horse management!
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Think of it this way, you up the work before you up the food.

OP, if I was your livery, I would be horrified to read this post aired on a public forum. I do keep my horse on full livery, and have frank and upfront discussions with the staff about what I want my horse to be fed. If the head girl or lad had then thought it appropriate to tell all of HHO about it, I'm pretty sure I'd be telling them where to get off. The horse does sound sharp, but it is her horse and if she can cope with it like that, it's her business. It's up to you to discuss this with her.
 
PiebaldPeril said:
Sorry, but no way would I endanger myself, or expect anyone else to, on a horse that is potentially going to explode and/or be dangerous to ride simply because of a feeding issue.

I don't think its fair for the owner to expect it.
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This.....
OP, you have already had the conversation with the owner, and they still insist on this feed regime. Thats fine, but dont put yourself at risk.
I have to say I agree with some people who are saying that you shouldnt change things without the owner's agreement.
 
Bubbles said:
Think of it this way, you up the work before you up the food.

OP, if I was your livery, I would be horrified to read this post aired on a public forum. I do keep my horse on full livery, and have frank and upfront discussions with the staff about what I want my horse to be fed. If the head girl or lad had then thought it appropriate to tell all of HHO about it, I'm pretty sure I'd be telling them where to get off. The horse does sound sharp, but it is her horse and if she can cope with it like that, it's her business. It's up to you to discuss this with her.
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Oh thank god Bubbles - I thought it was only me! Her horse, her rules. If you are not capable of riding it then don't ride it. If she needs full livery services, it might be that she needs to move the horse to a yard where there is a braver rider.
 
firewell said:
I think what Mike007 is saying is a load of tosh. Of course you adjust the horses feed as to work done and why on earth would you feed a horse a high energy diet if it doesn't need energy. I suggest you read the rules of feeding in the pony club manual.

OP I think a conversation with the livery is all that's required. She can feed the horse what she wants and take the risk of it getting diseases like ERS but if you are the one who's sitting on it when it's about to explode then it is your issue.
Either she feeds it the same and you don't ride it and she finds someone else to ride it or she comes to some sort of compromise with the feed.
She's totally unbalancing the feed ration feeding straights and two different compound feeds.
If she wants to feed it a high energy mix then fine, she should just feed comp mix and Alfa. On her days it can have full rations on the other days when it's not in work or you are riding it then this can be cut down and it can have half rations. Stick a mineral lick in it's stable and then no worrys about that.

Of course you shouldn't change a horses feed but you should feed for the work by feeding the same food but upping it or dropping it depending.

Also Mike, if I fed my TB either oats for energy or just hay, he would be either off his rocker or thin and asleep. There is nothing wrong with feeding a pasture cube and they do have a higher DE than hay, hay usually is around 7 if it's OK hay, higher if it's brilliant and a Pasture cube as a digestible energy of around 10 megajoules and a comp mix has around 13. Actually also Allen and Page 'quiet mix' is 30% starch which is the same starch as Tigre Oats.
There's a lot more to feed than just hay and oats.
ERS as a disease used to be called Monday Morning disease as racehorses would get in the day after the day off, because of having a full grain ration on a day when they didn't need it. hence feeding for work done.
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Yes ,adjust feed according to work done ,BUT NOT ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS. And as for the energy levels in "quiet cubes" They are not 10 MJ/kg they are about 8 .and as I said ,basicly the same as hay. Horses eat on a "dry matter intake"basis so giving a kg of cubes of DE 8MJ basicly means they dont eat a KG of hay at DE 7.5MJ so you achieve nothing. Alfa A is a straight as well so I wouldnt put too much store in your "unballancing the ration".
Monday morning disease (azoturia) is called that because of draught horses on very high corn intake (much more than a typical racehorse)used to get it after a day off.Draught breeds are incidentaly more prone to it anyway.
As for thoroughbreds, my experience is that the ones in regular work simply dont go bonkers on more feed providing they were getting enough to start with (that is not to say that I consider giving extra feed for no reason a good idea )
 
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I'd be totally horrified if I'd specified a diet for my horse and the yard manager changed it without my consent.

It's no different to a child-carer being asked to feed a child a certain thing and ignoring that.

It sounds harsh but she's paying you to do a job. The fact that you don't charge her for the extra feed is your problem, not hers.

I totally agree that you shouldn't compromise your own safety. But it would be completely wrong to alter the horse's diet without the owner's knowledge and agreement, and she can always find another livery yard if she wants her horse exercised and fed this way.

Simples :0)
 
firewell said:
I think what Mike007 is saying is a load of tosh. Of course you adjust the horses feed as to work done and why on earth would you feed a horse a high energy diet if it doesn't need energy. I suggest you read the rules of feeding in the pony club manual.

OP I think a conversation with the livery is all that's required. She can feed the horse what she wants and take the risk of it getting diseases like ERS but if you are the one who's sitting on it when it's about to explode then it is your issue.
Either she feeds it the same and you don't ride it and she finds someone else to ride it or she comes to some sort of compromise with the feed.
She's totally unbalancing the feed ration feeding straights and two different compound feeds.
If she wants to feed it a high energy mix then fine, she should just feed comp mix and Alfa. On her days it can have full rations on the other days when it's not in work or you are riding it then this can be cut down and it can have half rations. Stick a mineral lick in it's stable and then no worrys about that.

Of course you shouldn't change a horses feed but you should feed for the work by feeding the same food but upping it or dropping it depending.

Also Mike, if I fed my TB either oats for energy or just hay, he would be either off his rocker or thin and asleep. There is nothing wrong with feeding a pasture cube and they do have a higher DE than hay, hay usually is around 7 if it's OK hay, higher if it's brilliant and a Pasture cube as a digestible energy of around 10 megajoules and a comp mix has around 13. Actually also Allen and Page 'quiet mix' is 30% starch which is the same starch as Tigre Oats.
There's a lot more to feed than just hay and oats.
ERS as a disease used to be called Monday Morning disease as racehorses would get in the day after the day off, because of having a full grain ration on a day when they didn't need it. hence feeding for work done.
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Thanks for this. You are right, the quiet cubes and mix I use are Allen and Page and give more energy than hay as well as the vitamins and minerals.

The reason we kept the mare on the quiet mix was to aid in the change over of diets as it was done gradually over 10 days. I guess they could be dropped now. The oats were then added as the owner still wanted more oomph. I think the idea of reducing the size of the feed on the days off and when I ride her is the best idea, rather than changing the proprtions of the components, but I will talk to the owner first.
 
The owner is now happy with her horse's energy levels, you are not. Just tell her. It will then be up to her to adjust the horse's feed so that you are ok to ride it or she will have to find a different rider. A good level dressage trainer/competitor will happily school such a horse for her, and will charge her accordingly. Being a professional means being able to ride and improve any rideable horse. Being a yard owner and exercising liveries is different (and cheaper usually).
 
Evergreen said:
Thanks for this. You are right, the quiet cubes and mix I use are Allen and Page and give more energy than hay as well as the vitamins and minerals.

.
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Allen and Page quiet cubes 8.5MJ per kg Meadow hay betwean 8 and 11 MJ per Kg. So less energy unless the hay is poor,must confess this surprised me when I first checked it out.
 
Why is she feeding quiet cubes & oats?!

I'd pack the whole lot in, get a good chaff and a balancer. Sounds like horse doesn't need anything else, maybe something to bulk her up if she's one for losing weight.
 
Feed and the right/ obligation of a YO to interfere are, separately, two fairly inflammatory issues. Put the two together and you get a vast range of ideas and possibly an explosion!

With my YO's wife hat on:

It's probably not sensible to ask questions relating to specific clients/ problems on a public forum. It's a really small world and inevitably someone knows who you are and word gets back.

YOs do in my view (certainly those providing part/ full livery services) have a responsibility for the horses in their care. If there was something wrong with the horse, the owner would very quickly look to the YO and point out they're paying for their expertise and why didn't they say/ do something. Unfortunately some YOs have far less experience than they probably ought/ than many of their clients, which can cause problems. Conversely, many clients think they know an awful lot more than they do.

Which leads me on to communication. The first thing that generally happens when either YO or client isn't happy with something on the yard is they bitch about it and ask everyone else what they think/ what they would do. What unfortunately rarely happens, is the YO and the client have a calm discussion about the issue and the options and try to find a compromise.

A potential solution here, might be to suggest to the livery that you get a nutritionist to come in and look at the horses and make a recommendation as to what they should be getting? And let the livery know why you're suggesting it. If they're not prepared to compromise and you've worried you're going to get hurt, it may be time to suggest they may be happier elsewhere. Certainly that's better than being lied to about what your horse is getting - I've been that livery client and I left sharpish.

I hope you do manage to find a solution though as it currently sounds as though you're waiting for an accident.
 
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