Over priced hay

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This is probably very unpolitically correct, but I am so tired of hearing farmers whinge....about horses (who contribute quite a lot to the rural economy)....about supermarkets....about everyone they can think of....
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A few years ago...they seemed to get subsidies for getting out of bed in the morning....but they didn't worry about any one else who wasn't doing so well....
But now the subsidies are not as generous...we are all meant to feel sorry for them...
I've never met a poor farmer yet....
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Ive yet to meet one who isnt poor...

maybe thats just ireland though
 
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This is probably very unpolitically correct, but I am so tired of hearing farmers whinge....about horses (who contribute quite a lot to the rural economy)....about supermarkets....about everyone they can think of....
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A few years ago...they seemed to get subsidies for getting out of bed in the morning....but they didn't worry about any one else who wasn't doing so well....
But now the subsidies are not as generous...we are all meant to feel sorry for them...
I've never met a poor farmer yet....
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Ive yet to meet one who isnt poor...

maybe thats just ireland though

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Perhaps you've yet to meet one who doesn't SAY he's poor
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Well I can tell you what it cost me to make 250 big bales of haylage, not counting the fertiliser, time and machinery doing that (harrowing/rolling/fertilising etc), the actual cost from the contractors for wrapping and baling and stacking (we turn and row it ouselves) was £2500.....
So quite where you get the enormous profit margin from I can't work out...
Making small bales is incredibly time consuming , if you have to pay people to help stack and load, unload and store etc.. at least big bales can all be done by machine.
The prices have been far too low for years, think about it, a newspaper used to cost 12p in old money, it now costs nine shillings and 6p (45p in today's money) Hay used to cost £1 a bale.
Hay in compariosn should cost 10 times that price if you applied the same inflation rates (bear with me, maths is my weakest point!)
Sorry I think it's been far too cheap for far too long....
 
Well I know this is not your point, however hay farmers do not receive subsidies; not in England and not over here either.

Not sure about in the UK, however over here horse hay must be sold with GST (tax), cattle, sheep, goats etc do not incur a tax, hence people who sell any hay as horse hay is going to be slightly more expensive.

A lot of hay is sold over here as horse hay and it isn't. Generally people find this out once they have paid for their hay. We ONLY grow and supply hay specifically grown for horses. I'm not talking about all this dust/mold nonsense; I am talking about species of grasses grown. These grasses are very expensive to buy as seeds.

We farm about 140 acres of hay fields and we don't get anywhere near the yields per acre which have been bandied about on this thread. We generally only take one cut on our fields as we want to have the very highest quality hay, cut at the peak of perfection. This is what we get, superior quality hay - and this is why we keep our customers from year to year and they are customers who will pay that little bit extra for much more extra.

Do any of you know how much all of this haying equipment costs? You obviously know that most of this equipment cannot be used for any other farming job - just haying.

Do you know the cost of discbines, haybines, rakes, balers (round and square), the many hay wagons and elevators all cost? These machines have no other use except for producing hay.

You need AT LEAST 2 tractors to produce any large amount of hay. Do you know how much tractors cost?

You need HUGE amounts of storage space for hay. The hay barns are build to house hay, no other crop. Do you know how much these huge barns cost to build?

Then you have the land. How much per acre does this land cost to buy in the first place?

You also need diesel/petrol. Do you know how much it costs to run, at least, a 100 BHP tractor?

You need trucks at your disposal to pull the many hay wagons which you need at your disposal. Any idea how much a truck and 4 or 5 hay wagons cost? Do you know of any other use for a hay wagon? Nope, yet again you are buying something for a specific purpose and once the hay is in, the wagon goes away with all of the other haying equipment into yet another barn built to store you haying equipment for the rest of the year.

Anyone any idea how much Sisal costs these days, let alone wraps or polythene?

Of course you will have some idea of how much it costs to have farm hands for weeks on end, working from dawn till dusk.



This frequently discussed hay conversation makes me laugh so much - there's none so blind as those who cannot see.
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Ours is partially dried and fed to sheep too.

Have you considered the danger element of farming? In no other job which carried such risks and meant working in all conditions, for such hours would anyone expect minimum wage.

If farm labourers only got paid minimum wage t'd just go and work in a factory (in the warm) for better pay.

Then where would you get your hay from?? I'm sure some people think the fairies make it.
 
Hurrah! Finally someone speaks sense.

Maybe farmers should run at a loss so horse owners can pay less? The attitudes seen on this thread are the very reasons some farmers just say 'sod it" and stop selling.
 
Not to mention that almost all farmers who farm their own land are self-employed and as such, unless they pay huge insurance premium they are not able to collect sickness, dole and over here are not entitled to a pension at all.

Always best to work for a farmer than be the actual farmer.
 
But if YOU had a choice of working on a farm for 6 pounds an hour or a factory/ office for 7 pounds an hour, what would you prefer?
It is defately better to work FOR the farmer, but it's still a highly skilled and low paid job.
 
No I wouldn't work on a farm if I was a paid worker. No way. The work is very strenuous, very tiring, very long and often unsociable hours for very little pay.

If we didn't own our own farm and I had to work, then I would work almost anywhere else before considering working on a farm.
 
*Nods*
Hay is the horses main food so you shouldnt mind paying a bit more for good quality.When I had my last horse(about 8 years ago now) I paid £5 a bale, but because it was lovely,really good quality and delivered on time every time I diddnt mind.
Would rather pay a bit more and know the horse is getting something worth eating then have cheap crap.
 
We only ever got subsidy for hay when we went organic and but by year 3 the soil association fee was bigger than our grant... needless to say we are still organic (technically), but are not registered as it costs more than we will ever make on the hay!

Our labour is £8 & £15 per hour (the £15 per guy is worth it as he works so hard and can shift incredible number of bales!)

This year our baling tractor blew up, so thats another £1,500 for engine rebuild.

However our hay is £3 per bale, so still quite reasonable. We would sell cheaper to for a farmer or horsey person if they took it in quantity.

I am guessing the survey probably wasn't fair - as your farmer is always going to take more bales. So you are comparing (self service) 20 bales for a horsetrailer load with say a tractor trailer load.

We sold at a better price to a goat farmer, because he took 500 bales. So we don't discriminate on who it is for, but do give quantity discounts.
 
Tia, I don't know anything about Canadian agriculture...but know enough about hay making here....my point was aimed at UK farmers...I am very tired of hearing them whinge....if the future's so bleak, they should get out of farming, and look for more profitable work.
Another point is whether equine and agricultural businesses receive equal treatment. If you are a DIY livery yard, with an indoor school etc, you have to pay business rates. If you are a farmer with a DIY livery yard and an indoor school, you pay agricultural rates. Fair?
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Farming isn't just a job - it's a way of life. Many farmers I know go out to work as well to make ends meet. There are very few rich farmers in the West Country where I live. We make small bale haylage and sell over 3,000 bales a year. It is very labour intensive and the machinery involved is very costly. We don't employ any outside labour and if you costed in the labour and overhead costs - plus as somewhat said fuel and wrap costs have increased dramatically this last year, the profit margins are very small. But, we have customers who buy from us every year and we try and keep costs as fair as possible. My husband works full time as a builder and the haylage making is a link to the 30 years he spent as a dairy farmer.
 
As long as people pay the asking price farmers will sell it at that, regardless of the cost to produce.

Like it or not!!!!!
 
What an over-reaction! Having read the thread referred to by the OP I really can't see what the whinge is about, although the balanced response of the farmers on that forum certainly makes her sound like a bit of a nut.

Horses are an expensive hobby and horse owners are (understandably) demanding when it comes to hay. Farmers accommodate this and are prepared to sell small quantities and often deliver. Surely charging slightly more under these circumstances is not unreasonable.

Why farmers should be expected to subsidise horse owners by selling their best produce at cut-price escapes me. Some posters on this forum seem to think that it's unreasonable that they should make any profit at all!

What I find irritating is that this thread has deteriorated into a big slag off of farmers complaining about how poor they are. We are very dependent on agriculture in this country, but although we want their produce we continue to be reluctant to pay a fair price for it (as highlighted by this thread). The stranglehold of the supermarkets compounds this.

In contrast everyone knows that keeping horses is an expensive hobby; no one forces you to do it, and you can always flog your horse if it gets too much. The continual whinging on this forum about the prices charged by vets, farriers, farmers etc. etc. etc. is really quite tedious. Why these individuals should be denied a decent living is beyond me.

Farmers have a recommended wage structure set by an independent body which predates the national minimum wage and is reviewed annually. The minimum wage on this is 6 pound something and that's fair enough I think.
 
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As long as people pay the asking price farmers will sell it at that, regardless of the cost to produce.


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Well not quite. Once the cost to produce exceeds the sales cost, smart farmers will just switch crops and won't grow any hay, which will mean that the cattle farmers will be growing purely for themselves and won't have a whole load left to sell onto horse owners, and what they do have will be substandard to horse owners.

We only grow hay on our farm for horses. This hay is completely different from hay grown for sheep, which in turn is totally different from hay grown for cattle; which is also nothing like the hay which is grown for cows, LOL!! Over here it is the species of grasses that are grown which determines which animal it will be fed to - I get the impression that you guys are just buying any hay which is sweet smelling and isn't dusty. It isn't like that over here, however there are some people who like to try to sell cattle hay to horse people because they think they will get more money for it - the thing is, they often do, because so many people have no idea what they are feeding.
 
silage and haylage contain very different bugs.....not the same at all.

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Hay is grass that is cut and left to dry for at least three days to a high dry matter content (i.e. it isn't very wet!). It is then baled (using twine only) and stored - technically you should leave it for 6 months before feeding it to horses - although I have used some before this time when desperate.

Silage is again grass but it is cut and either baled or put in a silage clamp (like a big bunker) immediately, or it is left to wilt a little (around 12 hours). Wilting is done so that there is less silage effluent (liquid stuff that is very polluting and corrosive) to come out of the stored silage. Once it is baled or clamped it has to be sealed from oxygen by wrapping in plastic - if continuous oxygen is present it degrades - gets hot - and goes very nasty and smelly due to the effect of nasty bacteria. If it is sealed then nice anaerobic bacteria use sugar from the grass and pickle it by producing lots of acid. Silage can be fed to horses but you have to know what you are doing and you have to be able to recognise the smell and appearance of silage that has gone off / or contains botulism.

Haylage is halfway between - i.e. it is cut and dried a bit before baling with plastic wrapping to pickle. As the dry matter content is higher before wrapping there is less likely to be any 'bad' bugs in it and it is safer.
Both silage and haylage need to be used up within a few days of opening the plastic wrapping - as they do go off. Hay just gets dustier!
Hay replacers tend to be either chaff / chaff and alfalfa either loose or in compressed blocks. I once used a nugget type thing but because it had sharp edges by horse blistered her tongue and had to be off work for a while - not very amused!
I feed hay - because it is grown on the farm where I keep my horses and is generally ok. I don't have to soak it which is lucky but I do use Horsehage for anything that coughs.


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Our hay has gone up £2 frim £10.50 to £12.50 per bale (one of our bales is equivalent to around 3 smaller ones).

This is double what i paid in Essex, but it's very good hay and delivered to my feed bay.

I pay the higher price for the same reason I buy food from the farm shop, even though it's more expensive than Tescos. It's good quality and I like supporting a local economy.
 
i have been lucky, had various hay and haylage, hay was £2.75 a bale and haylage some £5 per bale some £3.25 lots of horsey prople make it near me,but if you cant afford to pay it you shouldnt keep horses
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hear hear Shilisdair. sensible person.
anyone want to buy any of my organic soft meadow hay. small bales.not dusty, lovely hay.
its £3.50 a bale if its for your horse.
its £2.50 if its for your sheep.
 
Meadow Hay? No definitely not. I only buy and produce Seed Hay; no rubbish for my guys. You can keep your Meadow Hay and try and flog it some unsuspecting horse owner.
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We are really lucky as the farm we are has 16 acres that they cut for hayledge. As it's only us and her, she only charges us for the wrapping/cutting costs so we get the big square/rectange bales for £10 each. They are usually between £25 - £35 around this area.

We've allocated 10 bales per horse for the winter, so £100 is pretty cheap by anyones standards and it's good stuff.
 
I think some posts on here about farmers are very unfair,and selfish.
Some people obviously have no idea.My OH is a farmer and saying they have never met a poor farmer is a load of rubbish.I know for sure that we struggle to make ends meet,and work very hard for very little.
And i thought this was a nice forum.Im begining to see it for what it is now
 
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Ours is partially dried and fed to sheep too.

Have you considered the danger element of farming? In no other job which carried such risks and meant working in all conditions, for such hours would anyone expect minimum wage.

If farm labourers only got paid minimum wage t'd just go and work in a factory (in the warm) for better pay.

Then where would you get your hay from?? I'm sure some people think the fairies make it.

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I suggest you re-read what I wrote. I did not say they only get minimum wage, neither would I suggest they should. What I asked was how come a minimum wage differs from one employer to another?. It doesn't. I don't expect that farm labourers get paid minimum wage, as was previously suggested.
Another poster has also supported and explained that haylege and silage are not the same, regardless of what you feed your sheep. By the way, I come from a farming family.
 
You poor naive little soul. This is not a nice forum - it's full of people expressing themselves, often seeing things quite differently to how things are in reality.
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Actually DM - I pay double minimum wage to our helpers. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have any. No-one with any sense wants to work in farming these days as the life is often too rigourous for lots of people who have become comfy in their nice shops or offices. Farming is a vocation - not a job, however if you give some college kids 20 bucks an hour then they'll pretend it's a vocation!
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Well for what its worth, our hay and straw has gone up by 50p a bale over the last 15 years. That's from the feed merchant as well and not direct from the farmer. Compare that to the way everything else has increased: petrol; house prices; food and so on, and it really isn't a big increase at all. Incredibly reasonable I think.
 
Farm laboureres tend to work on a wage, not an hourly basis. They get a set amount each week plus over time.

I wasnt suggesting any farm labourers work for 5.80 or whatever the minimum wage is either...
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I'm quite happy feeding what I deem to be haylage thankyou. The exact same stuff millions of other horse owners feed day in day out
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If you com from a farming family I cannot understand your question "why do farmers get a higher minimum wage?" (but then you said "it doesnt") I tried to explain that if that were so then maybe it's down to the long hours / dangerous work etc. But round here farm workers don't even get paid like that....

Do you even know what you're asking? Cos sure as hell i don't!!!
 
OK. I wil put it simply.

Someone said that the minimum wage farm labourers receive is higher than the minimum wage other workers receive. With me so far?
I queried why this person thought that farm labourers get a different rate of minimum wage to other workers.
The answer is they don't. Should a farm labourer only receive minimum wage, it will be at the same rate as anyone else.

As for your feeding haylage to sheep, I have not queried that. I simply said that haylage and silage are not the same thing.
 
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