Over-reaction to pain/ extreme fear of potential pain

[Cragrat]

Long story short, my horse has a VERY violent, extreme, over the top reaction to needles, and to his current wound being very gently touched. He has been ok for his vaccinations, because they are small and quick. Sedation/local/antibiotics - a massive NO. I did manage, eventually, to twitch him so he could be sedated, and then have the local, though even then it wasn't easy. Even after 3 lots of sedation. Since then I managed an AB shot on his left, using a horselyx, but the next day returned to his right side and it was impossible. Then tried his neck, but that was also impossoble. He will no longer allow a twitch either. Last night his wound needed a gentle wash with sterile water. Ridiculous over reaction before I'd even touched it. He wasn't messing around - he really intended to flatten us or kick our heads in or both, as quickly as possible. Twitching was out of the question - he sucks his top lip on to his teeth, and then flings his whole body to the sky, humans dangling like rag dolls. As a last ditch attempt I got the chiffney, and really used it up and back direction. He fought, but did eventually stand still for me to gently touch the area.

Now here's the thing... when I did, he didn't flimch, twitch the skin, or stamp his foot. It was like it didn't actually hurt as much as he thought it might. I very gently, quickly, bathed and dressed it, and took the chifney off and rewarded him. He is the sweetest, best mannered horse ever, so desperate to please, so kind - this reaction is totally out of character.

Back story - he's an ex-racer. I've had him 5 years, straight from racing. Piecing together information from his passport/sales history/race history, and from vets/chiros/physios since I've had him, we suspect he's had a biggish injury of some kind as a 2 y/o, which involved his off hind at hip/femur height. He did race 9 times from 3.5 to 5, but they gave up because he couldn't keep up when the rest quickened away at the finish, whichever length race they tried. They only tried so many times because he was such a lovable horse his owner didn't want to give up on him.

So - this HUGE over-reaction to big needles/ wound dressing /being twitched- any suggestions/tips please? I'm guessing he has a memory of severe pain, possibly??? rough handling when in pain???? I'm only guessing - his suspected injury took place in France. I am genuinely worried in the short term about managing this wound and getting the stitches out, and long term managing another vet incident.

He won't eat oral A/B's, and syringing is impossible too - worming I've managed because he trusts me and I'm quick, it's a tiny amount and isn't needed often. So oral sedation like domosedan MIGHT be possible, but I suspect he would fight it off.

 

[TheMule]

I've had 2 that have just been that way from birth, I can guarantee they've never had a bad experience as they are homebred but that instinct is incredibly strong. He doesn’t know it's not really going to hurt, he's a prey animal fighting for his life.
The only way we can now inject the older one is in a lorry with full height partitions. It's horrible, and it feels very mean, but she physically can’t get away and she knows fighting is futile. We do it very rarely!

 

[stangs]

Re fear of needles (it's not an overreaction), I'd probably be looking at clicker training. Clicking for not moving away or not lifting their head up, and then slowly shaping the behaviour until you can approach with something that looks like a needle, approach with something that looks like a needle and smells of alcohol, pinch the skin and so on. You can also implement a start button (have a look on YouTube for some tutorials); that way the animal feels more in control of the bad thing happening. Similar thing can be done with wound dressing - clicking for not moving away and then slowly getting closer till you can touch the wound without moving away. You do have to be good about timing and also not pushing him too much too quickly.

I wouldn't recommend twitching in general, but especially not with a horse like this. He sounds like a clever chap who may well react the next time you try putting a Chifney on him.

 

[Cragrat]

Thank you - that's interesting to know! We had considered trapping him in the trailer, but worried that he'd punch a hole in the roof or the side, or I'd never be able to load him again! Does yours still load?

 

[Cragrat]

Re fear of needles (it's not an overreaction), I'd probably be looking at clicker training. Clicking for not moving away or not lifting their head up, and then slowly shaping the behaviour until you can approach with something that looks like a needle, approach with something that looks like a needle and smells of alcohol, pinch the skin and so on. You can also implement a start button (have a look on YouTube for some tutorials); that way the animal feels more in control of the bad thing happening. Similar thing can be done with wound dressing - clicking for not moving away and then slowly getting closer till you can touch the wound without moving away. You do have to be good about timing and also not pushing him too much too quickly.

I wouldn't recommend twitching in general, but especially not with a horse like this. He sounds like a clever chap who may well react the next time you try putting a Chifney on him.

I had thought about clicker training. Can you use it for larger volumes - i.e. getting the needle in is one thing, but attaching the syringe and squeezing 20 mls of Pen and strep, even when warmed, is another!

I agree about the chiffney :/ I hope I can still bridle him. Headcollar is still ok thankfully.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I had thought about clicker training. Can you use it for larger volumes - i.e. getting the needle in is one thing, but attaching the syringe and squeezing 20 mls of Pen and strep, even when warmed, is another!

I agree about the chiffney :/ I hope I can still bridle him. Headcollar is still ok thankfully.

sister used clicker training to get her mare to let her pick her feet up after a nasty abscess/sedations/vet experience which completely put the previously well-mannered youngster off having her feet checked.
Can the vet not put the syringe and needle together before approaching the horse? I've known vets do that with 'tricky' horses in the past.

 

[stangs]

I had thought about clicker training. Can you use it for larger volumes - i.e. getting the needle in is one thing, but attaching the syringe and squeezing 20 mls of Pen and strep, even when warmed, is another!

Once he's comfortable having the needle 'in', then you can reward for increases in duration - you increase the amount of time it's in with small increments, saying "good... good..." to show that you're still there/this is part of the behaviour, and then remove and click. Another option used for equid clicker training is continuous feeding, wherein you're giving continued mouthfuls of chaff as you build up the duration so they're always chewing.

 

[Cragrat]

sister used clicker training to get her mare to let her pick her feet up after a nasty abscess/sedations/vet experience which completely put the previously well-mannered youngster off having her feet checked.
Can the vet not put the syringe and needle together before approaching the horse? I've known vets do that with 'tricky' horses in the past.

Good to know the clicker helped!
It makes no difference whether the needle is pre-attached or not. The problem is that at the moment if by some chance you did manage to get the needle in, you have a micro-second to deliver the injection, and 20 mls of a thick substance like P and S takes a second or two, ideally a few seconds. An obviously IV sedation requires careful placement and time to draw blood up etc.

 

[Cragrat]

Once he's comfortable having the needle 'in', then you can reward for increases in duration - you increase the amount of time it's in with small increments, saying "good... good..." to show that you're still there/this is part of the behaviour, and then remove and click. Another option used for equid clicker training is continuous feeding, wherein you're giving continued mouthfuls of chaff as you build up the duration so they're always chewing.

Good tips, thank you. He loves eating, unfortunately not enough by itself to overcome the fear, but in combination with clickering it might help.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

The BEVA “Don’t break your vet” videos have some excellent tips for doing clicker training for just these kind of issues. They’ve been put together by a behaviourist and vets specifically to help owners ?

 

[Cragrat]

The BEVA “Don’t break your vet” videos have some excellent tips for doing clicker training for just these kind of issues. They’ve been put together by a behaviourist and vets specifically to help owners ?

Excellent - thank you!

 

[SusieT]

Consider asking for him to be admitted for an iv antibiotic course to avoid the stress of IM injections. Consider asking for domosedan to give orally to sedate him pre injection. To be fair - if you've ever had an IM injection they are pretty sore so you can understand why an animal who doesn't understand why people he trusts keeps hurting him could react. We know that we are trying to help - they don't.
Obviously for now you have to get the meds in somehow.
For the future I would work on positive handling, clicker training, needle desensitisation. You will need help with this so a good behaviorist/trainer who focuses on this area is essential.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

One of mine was awful to syringe but I just filled a large syringe with mint essence and water and just took it to him every day let him snif it eventually he was licking it and after about a week I could squirt it in his mouth, I can now syringe anything into to him without even putting a headcollar on and he has he Prascend every day in a syringe with the mint essence. It works a treat ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I was just thinking my syringe shy horse also became needle shy he would just rear vertical as soon as a vet approached him then just go and I couldn't hold on to him.

His got a bit better but I think he definitely got worse after having a work up at the vets, so it's probably that they just get fed up with being poked and pulled around, he also became reluctant to load after multiple visits to the vet and this horse is so intelligent I think he just associated it as something horrible was going to happen.

This horse has also had terrible reactions to flu and tetanus jabs he literally gets swellings that prevent him from walking, I have found him in the field after his jabs and his been paralysed by it after having it in his chest, and if he has them in the neck he can't move his neck to eat or anything.

 

[SEL]

Clicker training by a vet who had been on a training course worked wonders with my needle (&vet) phobic draft horse. He'd pulled logs so thought nothing of walking off dragging a squeaking human behind. Nothing nasty - just said no.

We took a bucket full of pony nuts and started by just introducing the vet. Pat, click, nuts. Then she prodded the area of the injection - click, nuts. Worked away like this for 20 mins and for a horse with the hide of a rhino (I'd done IM injections before with him) she finally managed to get the stuff in - & it was dectomax so gloopy and takes ages.

Every time since I've taken the pony nuts in and asked the vet to work slowly. Only one was a nightmare because she literally launched herself at his haunches - he sent us both flying in his panic and I needed to find my twitch. I had to ask not to have her again.

By the end (sob) he was a lot more trusting. Its worth putting in the practice because you never know when it's going to be an emergency.

 

[Cragrat]

That BEVA video was really helfpul, I've joined a few clicker groups on line, and watched more videos.

He has done a bit of target training a few years ago, so we started on Saturday to get near his wound to rinse /inspect it. It went really well, and this morning he let me sryinge out some gunk, and even remove a few manky bits. Minor stamping, and only tried to kick my head off with his hind once. But actually stood still without being held, and was much less stressed, so I'm really pleased.

Next step is to work on being injected!

 

[Cragrat]

Clicker training by a vet who had been on a training course worked wonders with my needle (&vet) phobic draft horse. He'd pulled logs so thought nothing of walking off dragging a squeaking human behind. Nothing nasty - just said no.

We took a bucket full of pony nuts and started by just introducing the vet. Pat, click, nuts. Then she prodded the area of the injection - click, nuts. Worked away like this for 20 mins and for a horse with the hide of a rhino (I'd done IM injections before with him) she finally managed to get the stuff in - & it was dectomax so gloopy and takes ages.

Every time since I've taken the pony nuts in and asked the vet to work slowly. Only one was a nightmare because she literally launched herself at his haunches - he sent us both flying in his panic and I needed to find my twitch. I had to ask not to have her again.

By the end (sob) he was a lot more trusting. Its worth putting in the practice because you never know when it's going to be an emergency.

I really must talk to the vet when I book for stitches removal - try to ask for one who is on board with ciickering.

At least your hard work made the end less stressful - I totally agree this is something I should have done MUCH sooner, just in case. I knew he wouldn't accept accupuncture, but because we had always managed the vaccinations by being quick, I didn't address the issue. Regretting that now!

 

[Quigleyandme]

I too have had success with clicker training a needle phobic horse. The key is ongoing, periodic training to desensitise the horse for when his cooperation is actually needed.

 

[smolmaus]

An understanding vet is a god send. My friend did so much work with her gelding to get him okay for injections with positive reinforcement conditioning and it went so smoothly because our vet is patient and let herself be directed when it came to the real needle. It's long and hard work to build true desensitisation but its just safer for everyone and there's nothing more important than that.

 

[Bernster]

A timely thread! My boy is needle shy and it wasn’t a massive issue but it has become one now. He’d be ok in the muscle but really hated into the vein. You could only do it once in a new place and then he’d know and you couldn’t do it again. Had a couple of vets who were pretty creative so we managed it ok but he was in the hospital recently and it got really bad as he needed so many injections ?. He ended up with a catheter and now has some horrible scarring in the vein due to an infection which we’re still trying to resolve weeks later.

I you tubed a few videos which were helpful about slowly helping them get used to it (eventually using a pen lid, then a syringe with no needle) and, once he’s over this current bout of treatment, I’ll give those a go. He’s very grabby with food though so I’m not sure if clicker training will work if it involves treats. Saying that, the jugular is now non functioning, and may never heal fully, so he won’t be getting any more injections in the vein in his neck ?.

 

[Cragrat]

I think the initial part of clicker training involves learning NOT to be grabby. You always move your hand front and centre to gove the treat - they don't move their head to you. Your hand goes to them. You don't move on to target training or anything else until they have got this part. Mine would be real pocket raider given the chance, but he learnt not too quickly, and as long as the treat giver is ABSOLUTLEY consistent in their hand placement he is really good.