Over rewarding.....

[horsefeed]

I was told yesterday I over reward my horse, my pockets are full of treats and I even use a scoop of mix if needed.
I am currently bringing my mare back into work, lunging in full tack at the moment. She has been known to bronc when you put her bridle on, or saddle, or mount or ask her to walk after any of the above. Its a learnt behaviour I think which was initially caused by pain but all recent checks indicate no pain so concentrating on making nice memories at the moment.
So currently catch and groom, small treat from pocket. Reins over head, treat, headcollar off and bridle on treat. I then have a 2nd person hold her with scoop of feed, poly pad laid on back, she isn't allowed to eat constantly but is allowed a mouthful when stands quietly. Repeats poly pad on and off several times with mouthful feed every time she stands. Then add saddle and feed, repeat with saddle 2/3 times, do girth up and handful of feed. Then stand back and shake feed and ask her to come forwards to it, do this several times until walking round comfortably. Then lunge 10/15 mins in tack, small treat out of pocket at the end. Saddle and poly pad off and treat, bridle off and treats.
Seems like a lot but gone from being very tense to reasonably relaxed and broncing has stopped *touches wood now she has something else to concentrate on. Plan is to reduce the treats/feed until she needs just 1 after being tacked up and will then start the same process with mounting?
Does this seem like too much? It seems to be working and making process reasonably quickly without any fights.
She gets no additional hardfeed as turned out on good grass and get a lot of mix/treats daily so she isn't fat.

 

[spacefaer]

If it is working for you, then that's all you can go with.

I never give treats or feed when I'm handling but I have a loathing of overbearing pushy horses that mug humans for food, and nearly all of my guys are quite food oriented.

How quickly are you planning on reducing the frequency of the treats? What happens when you don't give one? Is she expecting it?

 

[stencilface]

Could you use a clicker too so she associates that with a reward then you can start to drop the treats quicker?

I'm not against treating, it's a very easy way of doing positive reinforcement with a difficult beast. I use clicker training with my mule to try and make him like me, some days are more successful than others!!

 

[horsefeed]

Could you use a clicker too so she associates that with a reward then you can start to drop the treats quicker?

I'm not against treating, it's a very easy way of doing positive reinforcement with a difficult beast. I use clicker training with my mule to try and make him like me, some days are more successful than others!!

She is petrified of the sound of the clicker, I have tried several times and it just freaks her out. I am basically using that concept though but saying good girl instead of clicking

 

[horsefeed]

If it is working for you, then that's all you can go with.

I never give treats or feed when I'm handling but I have a loathing of overbearing pushy horses that mug humans for food, and nearly all of my guys are quite food oriented.

How quickly are you planning on reducing the frequency of the treats? What happens when you don't give one? Is she expecting it?

She is not food orientated at all, she's not looking for it and you have to hold it out to her before she will accept. Its more the fact its something else for her to think about rather then the tack. I am going to make the stages between treats longer over a few sessions, I can also add more treats in again if needed

 

[stencilface]

You can cluck with your tongue to do the same thing.

My mum still treats our 25 year old to do a variety of things, it drives me nuts! He knows what you want he's just a pain!

 

[nikkimariet]

For me... Yes...

I treat when I bring in, before and after work. That's it.

 

[Amye]

I think if it is working for you and she is not becoming rude or bloshy then it is ok. Like others (and you!) have said, you do need to work towards not giving her treats after every little move and start giving her them after a good sequence of behaviour. Once she is improved then you can also give them less frequently.

If she's scared of the clicker you can use another sound - but you have to be careful that you only use that sound when you are rewarding (such as a cluck - i sometimes do that to get my horse going so wouldn't be useful for rewarding).

 

[liz4949]

Well done on your progress, which clearly suits you and your horse. I also used treats with my rather opinionated horse when I first had him.
We gradually reduced them and he is now a polite little horse who understands exactly what is expected of him. He certainly hasn't turned into a food mugging monster.

 

[Charlie007]

She is your horse, its working and she is not mugging you, can't see a problem myself. Does she have a particular place she likes to be scratched? A nice scratch could replace a few treats?

 

[Amye]

Well done on your progress, which clearly suits you and your horse. I also used treats with my rather opinionated horse when I first had him.
We gradually reduced them and he is now a polite little horse who understands exactly what is expected of him. He certainly hasn't turned into a food mugging monster.

I think if you treat correctly then most horses won't turn into food mugging as they understand they have to DO something to get the treat. When i started clicker training people said they it would turn my horse rude as he would always want a treat. But he hasn't, he only gets a treat when he is being polite and doing what i ask (same goes for his tea) so he now 'looks away' when i am offering him a treat, no rudeness at all.

 

[Starzaan]

Whilst I can understand why you are giving treats, I HATE treats.

There is a very large, very red sign on my stable door asking people never to give my horse treats. I see all too often the consequences of over treating. Biting, barging, rudeness, and even horses becoming dangerous.

One particular horse I know who is given treats for EVERYTHING he does, has put two people in hospital by biting after being pushed away from their pockets.


That being said, your horse, your choice. Just think about what she may do if someone needs to handle her and doesn't have treats with them, or doesn't like giving treats.

 

[Blurr]

I like what you're doing. Creating good associations and changing her emotions about a piece of equipment she used to dread. You can fade out the treats when you're sure her new behaviours are established.

 

[EQUIDAE]

What you are doing isn't treating it is bribing. The reward should come after the act, not before. You make faster progress rewarding afterwards because your horse will be trying to work out what it needs to do to get the treat. If it is coming anyway, there is no need for them to try.

 

[horsefeed]

She is your horse, its working and she is not mugging you, can't see a problem myself. Does she have a particular place she likes to be scratched? A nice scratch could replace a few treats?

She hates being touched!! Doesn't do grooming or hugs etc, She tolerates people because we feed her. She is a bit of loner, I have owned her 5 years and never seen her grooming with another horse either.

 

[horsefeed]

Whilst I can understand why you are giving treats, I HATE treats.

There is a very large, very red sign on my stable door asking people never to give my horse treats. I see all too often the consequences of over treating. Biting, barging, rudeness, and even horses becoming dangerous.

One particular horse I know who is given treats for EVERYTHING he does, has put two people in hospital by biting after being pushed away from their pockets.


That being said, your horse, your choice. Just think about what she may do if someone needs to handle her and doesn't have treats with them, or doesn't like giving treats.

She's generally find to handle without treats, its just tacking up and mounting she associates with previous pain, she is too timid a horse to bite or shove anyone. She most definitely would not mug someone's pockets

 

[horsefeed]

What you are doing isn't treating it is bribing. The reward should come after the act, not before. You make faster progress rewarding afterwards because your horse will be trying to work out what it needs to do to get the treat. If it is coming anyway, there is no need for them to try.

She does have to earn, for instance poly pad goes on her back if she moves away she doesn't get anything if she stands, she immediately gets a reward.

 

[horsefeed]

I like what you're doing. Creating good associations and changing her emotions about a piece of equipment she used to dread. You can fade out the treats when you're sure her new behaviours are established.

Thank you, this is what I am trying to achieve, just comment made yesterday made me doubt myself. I have been dumped on the deck way too many times by this mare so need to build some good associations so we can both start moving forwards

 

[SEL]

I have a bolshy, hand reared as a baby, greedy mare and I still use treats as part of her training. But she absolutely only gets rewarded for doing 'something' - not just for rocking up and being a horse.

She was downright dangerous having her feet handled when I first got her. I did loads of work on de-sensitising her back legs, but it was only when treats were introduced for the 'try' as she lifted her feet that she got it. I guess she couldn't see the point until then. In fact I'm not sure she really got the whole thing about having her feet picked out until one day she got a large stone stuck. I found a grumpy 3 legged mare waving her leg at me - finally realised humans have a use.

Treats no longer necessary for feet and she doesn't grab or pester me like a lot of horses do.

 

[vmac66]

My horse was scared of fly spray, even the fine spray quiet ones. It had taken me all summer of rewarding him with a treat when he stands still but last night I was able to spray him all over and he didnt move once. Got one treat when I had finished. We are now working on making the clippers a good thing as he is terrified off then.

 

[saddlesore]

Your horse your rules. I use treats all the time with my youngster to help him learn and consolidate wanted behaviours. He knows if he does xyz that he is rewarded and so tries had to meet those expectations. He never mugs me for treats.

 

[stencilface]

I've tried treating my mule to get him to like the hosepipe, think I would need 20 sacks of feed to make it possible We mainly concentrate on walk, touch and stand.

My horse I treat randomly and quite a lot! But he's polite and in 12 years has never bitten. I give him to treats to compensate for my poor riding

 

[happyclappy]

Far too many for my liking, treats are given at the end of a good session, or special occasions, but just one or two. If it work for you and your horse is not actively looking for them then no problem

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It is no one's business but yours!
I don't get this fear of horses becoming pushy/mugging their owner because they are rewarded for doing the right thing. I have extremely well mannered horses who are rewarded as I see fit and tbh, if anyone was rude enough to comment, they would get short shrift!

But my horses know who is in charge, as yours obviously does.

 

[splashgirl45]

well done for trying a kind method rather than telling her off. mares can be a bit tricky sometimes so if it works for you then carry on, you have said you will phase treats out gradually so i see no problem with what you are doing. my mare would never stand still to be mounted and i tried lots of things to stop her walking off with me just about on. i had a hip op and it was imperative that i could get on safely so i got a friend to stand by her head and give her polos while i got on and sorted myself out, after a couple of days she still stood by her head but the polos came from me, then friend didnt need to be there and my mare will stand like a rock until she gets her polo(just the one) i would rather be safe and she never expects a treat at any other time so works for me. good luck with yours..

 

[Neversaydie]

That's a hard one. Really unless it is au song issues like nipping and mugging and begging then I can't really see the harm, I don't over treat mine but that's because he doesn't need bribes or taught anything really now. He gets a carrot or Apple after each ride and his dinner and if being s peat to catch them I'll take a carrot and he gets half when caught and the other half after I close the gate but that's it really.

If it's working for you and not casing more issues than it is fixing then no harm done I suppose. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[eggs]

For me that is over treating but I don't have such issues with my horses. One used to shuffle about when she was tacked up and I still give her a polo when the saddle has been on and she now stands still. However if this is working for your horse then it is your business how much you give her.

 

[Dry Rot]

No treats here, only rewards. And the rewards are immediate for the desired response.

Lidls make a fortune out of selling carrots to me!

 

[Rosiejazzandpia]

Whilst I can understand why you are giving treats, I HATE treats.

There is a very large, very red sign on my stable door asking people never to give my horse treats. I see all too often the consequences of over treating. Biting, barging, rudeness, and even horses becoming dangerous.

One particular horse I know who is given treats for EVERYTHING he does, has put two people in hospital by biting after being pushed away from their pockets.


That being said, your horse, your choice. Just think about what she may do if someone needs to handle her and doesn't have treats with them, or doesn't like giving treats.

Your horse your choice OP but I do have to agree with the user quoted, I see this all the time where I work and while helping a young disabled rider on board yesterday I was bitten very viciously by a horse that is fed treats constantly. I've got a cut and swollen arm and this isn't the first bite I've had from this particular horse, he's vicious now with the yard staff and is a bully with everyone around him.

 

[MrsNorris]

No treats here, only rewards. And the rewards are immediate for the desired response.

Lidls make a fortune out of selling carrots to me!

Sounds to me like you're using rewards to encourage desirable behaviour, not treating, as Dry Rot says. Excellent strategy with many horses, but timing is obviously critical, sounds like it's working for you, so carry on and ignore the detractors.