Megibo
Well-Known Member
i merely asked for peoples opinions on the matter, i wasnt saying that those breeders would be bothering to read posts like mine.
overbreeding? what do you think?
- Thread starter Megibo
- Start date
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
First time I've heard Darwin's theory of evolution called "childish" - I might have to return the compliment by saying that you very much sound like you still believe in Black Beauty
... and pretty sure they don't care either...
Horse overpopulation is a huge problem created (in the humble opinion of someone who spent most of the last 20 years trying to rehabilitate other people's stupid mistakes, unsympathetic & cruel training methods, and generally trying to give horses that COULD have a useful future a chance), not by overbreeding per se, but by the WASTAGE produced by some in the horse industry. By that I mean horses so physically and mentally damaged that euthanasia is ever going to be the only kind thing to do.
Interestingly, the gypsy breeding isn't as bad as all that because Bob the Cob, sound, sane, never ill, cheap to run, will never cause the people who chose to buy him to take them around the country lanes on a Sunday afternoon any hassle... and there will always be a demand for him.
The racing industry and some of the German Sports Horse enormous breeding machines are more to blame in the sense that when ROR (Retraining of Racehorses, the Racing charity) was created, the enormous amounts of wastage they produce each year (failed or never raced animals), instead of being culled as they used to, found themselves in the riding horse market, with various degree of "retraining", mostly too hot or too psychologically damaged for most leisure riders to handle... and there finding their way to my yard... if they're lucky. Mostly finding their way to unscrupulous dealers' yard selling them as birthday presents to 13 year olds for £1,500 or under, looking so "pretty", non-horsey mothers delighted of the bargain... And yes, I have seen this first hand, not pretty!
THAT is flooding the market with unrideable (for the average rider) horses and if you look at various for sale ad in the under £1,000 section, you'll find that most of the horses over 15.2hh are TBs... has potential... "project"...
Rant over
LMsporthorses
Well-Known Member
found themselves in the riding horse market, with various degree of "retraining", mostly too hot or too psychologically damaged for most leisure riders to handle... and there finding their way to my yard... if they're lucky. Mostly finding their way to unscrupulous dealers' yard selling them as birthday presents to 13 year olds for £1,500 or under, looking so "pretty", non-horsey mothers delighted of the bargain... And yes, I have seen this first hand, not pretty!
THAT is flooding the market with unrideable (for the average rider) horses and if you look at various for sale ad in the under £1,000 section, you'll find that most of the horses over 15.2hh are TBs... has potential... "project"...
Rant over
Yes ...... this has happened at the yard I'm at ''all the gear no idea'' people who think ''retraining'' racehorses is easy.... usually end up paying me to ride them.
I have lost count of the times people have asked me to look at a horse for them that they are interesting in buying to find it is a TB ..... when they blatantly can not handle them.... I say ''you know what you want..... a 'Bob the Cob' no matter if its not the best looker, something you can actually ride and enjoy.''
Many still do not listen and just go ahead and end up practicall begging someone to have it a year down the line when they have finally come to terms with the fact that after 'parelli' , 'monty roberts' techniques endless back people, calming supplements etc they still cant ride them. And remember if all else fails ..... if its a mare we could breed a foal...... argh vicious circle
At the end of it all they have propably spent about £4000 on the horse..... which if they had put in to buying a nice well produce cob type/ half bred in the first place would have had alot less heartache and a better outcome.
Megibo
Well-Known Member
believe what you will...First time I've heard Darwin's theory of evolution called "childish" - I might have to return the compliment by saying that you very much sound like you still believe in Black Beauty
... and pretty sure they don't care either...
Horse overpopulation is a huge problem created (in the humble opinion of someone who spent most of the last 20 years trying to rehabilitate other people's stupid mistakes, unsympathetic & cruel training methods, and generally trying to give horses that COULD have a useful future a chance), not by overbreeding per se, but by the WASTAGE produced by some in the horse industry. By that I mean horses so physically and mentally damaged that euthanasia is ever going to be the only kind thing to do.
Interestingly, the gypsy breeding isn't as bad as all that because Bob the Cob, sound, sane, never ill, cheap to run, will never cause the people who chose to buy him to take them around the country lanes on a Sunday afternoon any hassle... and there will always be a demand for him.
The racing industry and some of the German Sports Horse enormous breeding machines are more to blame in the sense that when ROR (Retraining of Racehorses, the Racing charity) was created, the enormous amounts of wastage they produce each year (failed or never raced animals), instead of being culled as they used to, found themselves in the riding horse market, with various degree of "retraining", mostly too hot or too psychologically damaged for most leisure riders to handle... and there finding their way to my yard... if they're lucky. Mostly finding their way to unscrupulous dealers' yard selling them as birthday presents to 13 year olds for £1,500 or under, looking so "pretty", non-horsey mothers delighted of the bargain... And yes, I have seen this first hand, not pretty!
THAT is flooding the market with unrideable (for the average rider) horses and if you look at various for sale ad in the under £1,000 section, you'll find that most of the horses over 15.2hh are TBs... has potential... "project"...
Rant over
see, now that i agree with
Holly831
Well-Known Member
As always a really good. common sense answer!
Mine get a year off if they fall late the previous year but only because I don't want late foals.
My horses are my passion and my sanity from my real job and I would rather have mine PTS than be passed around where anything can (and does) happen to them.
One of my mares has no breeding recorded but has given me 3 good quality, sane & trainable youngsters (last one I took to the BEF Futurity and he graded 1st premium
. I have managed to sell all that I wanted to for good prices (wouldn't say I ever make a profit but I certainly cover all my costs and the mares keep etc to date!) and now have people asking what I have due so they can have first refusal.
Not a pink fluffy horses owner/breeder but my horses are very well cared for and I spend a good deal of time etc on their care/comfort - OH will vouch for that!!! I don't ride and have no intention of ever riding, my mares are broodmares and that is their job.
billyhall
New User
Brilliant stuff!! Yes, of course all the responsible breeders should be slapped with a tax because of the 'recession' and because people are skint!! This will sove ALL the problems! Bound to
Speaking about the market and the general horse population - I agree with a lot of what Ginnie R says, its not just about the breeding, it is also about the rest of life and use of these animals.
As for broodmares having foals every year - why not? If they are fit and well, looked after properly - what makes them any different to other horses used for jobs? Hunting? Eventing? Or should we not be doing anything with horses anymore? My mares (and pretty much every other broodmare I know of) live great lives, are able to enjoy a small herd life, interact with their foals, interact with other foals, get fed correctly, have attentive healthcare, footcare, vaccinations and worming, enjoy chilling out in big fields, and so on.
As for everyone being skint... horses have never been cheap to do anything with as far as I am aware? A big problem is that people seem to think they can use the credit crunch as an excuse to rip other people off!
Lastly... Nokia, are you vegetarian?
What difference does being a vegetarian make - I eat meat but that did not stop me getting a rescue horse - yes one of those passed from pillar to post by ponyclubbers/eventers/hunters -yes one of those that did a job !horses give a lot to people - have a long hard think - what have you ever done for a horse- price is determined by supply and demand - if there was a shortage there would be money to be made - people like me would be happy to pay - but i would rather follow my conscience. Without the horse we would be nothing- its a shame they are considered machines. If you are lucky to be in a position to breed - it is an honour please respect this.
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
I only have one thing to add...
I LOVE horses, they have been my visceral passion since I was 7 years old (that's 33 years ago, by the way...). I have lost very strong relationships because of them. I have NEVER treated a horse like a machine.
But I KNOW you CANNOT help horses by being emotional, sentimental and above all anthropomorphic...
The only way is to be realistic.
I LOVE horses, they have been my visceral passion since I was 7 years old (that's 33 years ago, by the way...). I have lost very strong relationships because of them. I have NEVER treated a horse like a machine.
But I KNOW you CANNOT help horses by being emotional, sentimental and above all anthropomorphic...
The only way is to be realistic.
Elsbells
Well-Known Member
My mare is stunning, smart, talented and bred from top jumping lines.
The amount of people that have said to me, including complete strangers is unreal
"Why don't you get a foal from her, you should breed from her",
It is unbelievable, even my vet suggested it too!!!
She's sound, never sick or sorry, I ride her almost every day and she's only 10 years old. I am 50 so I wouldn't want the foal for myself, so why the hell would I breed from her?
The amount of people that have said to me, including complete strangers is unreal
"Why don't you get a foal from her, you should breed from her",
It is unbelievable, even my vet suggested it too!!!
She's sound, never sick or sorry, I ride her almost every day and she's only 10 years old. I am 50 so I wouldn't want the foal for myself, so why the hell would I breed from her?
LMsporthorses
Well-Known Member
You don't have to breed from her just cos other people say you should , there are lots and lots of very nice mares out there that would be ideal to breed from but depending on a individual circumstances and their reasons for breeding they don't and there is nothing wrong with that either, that's you being responsible enough to come to that decision.
I think its people that don't have stunning, smart, talented mares that are breeding and perhaps shouldn't be.
Enjoy your mare she sounds nice.
nokia
Well-Known Member
Mugsgame ..the title sums you up just great !!!
No im not a vegi...i own a large dairy /beef breeding unit so do you think in a vegeterian.
I like the way you took the Pis% out of my comments...your about as witty as piles.
But you breeders will keep breeding and breeding...you will get less and less for your stock good luck to you...
But you know best..most horses people do ...
No im not a vegi...i own a large dairy /beef breeding unit so do you think in a vegeterian.
I like the way you took the Pis% out of my comments...your about as witty as piles.
But you breeders will keep breeding and breeding...you will get less and less for your stock good luck to you...
But you know best..most horses people do ...
Mugsgame
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum! Eating meat may not make a difference to you - I was simply referring to Nokia's quote about 'business being business'. You see, Nokia thinks we should all be taxed for allowing our (well looked after, good, graded and proven) mares to be bred year after year. I thought the notion was a little comical in its simplicity and jumped to my own conclusion that the poster must frown upon the meat trade too. I am not comparing the reasons for breeding (or attempting to breed) good quality horses with the farming sector, merely making the point that yes, business IS business, why should any broodmare owners be ashamed of that? So, the market is down, the breeders are feeling the pinch. No need to tax! Its just childish! We have the odd ewe or so kicking around here, THEY breed every year, year in, year out, until they meet their maker. Why? Because they are not pets and their lambs are sold to the meat trade. They are looked after exceptionally well, but they are here for a reason. Same as many people's broodmares. Thats the task in hand and they get on with it.
Tackle the ignorant, tackle the negligent, tackle the ****s who ruin the horses that are bred and so on and so forth. But please leave the good hearted, dedicated and passionate people alone to follow their heads and their hearts supplying well mannered and talented young horses to the market - they don't need the earache any more than some silly tax.
I breed horses, I keep horses (very occassionally I might ride one!!) and I have also rehomed more than my fair share of 'scrapheap' horses - to fantastic homes and receive updates on each and every one. The one thing all the forementioned 'scrapheap' horses had in common was ignorant past owners who thought it might be nice to keep a horse. People who think sheep look after themselves annoy me in much the same way.
Ginnie - once again I totally agree with you (but my 7 years old wasnt quite 33 years ago yet LOL
)And Ellsbells, I totally agree with LMSportshorses, she is your beautiful mare - you know you are lucky to have her and why should anyone else decide whats best for the pair of you? You are totally right - just because she has a uterus doesnt mean you HAVE to make her use it, but if that were your choice - why not? Watch out for the baby tax though if you ever do change your mind!!!
Revena
Well-Known Member
Wow, this has turned into an interesting post! OP you don't have to worry people are NOT attacking you viewpoint but simply taking part in a good debate!
I agree thoroughly with GR's point about attatching human emotions to horses- I LOVE my horses, do they love me, well no, they respect me and we have a good human equine relationship but their love is reserved for their food. The only time I see genuine love from my horses is when the mares look at their foals (this is gone by day two when the foals attempt to stick their head in the food bowls )
I do think their are people who 'overbreed' and yes prices are down in the Market at the moment, but this is for everything! Does the word recession ring any bells?
The fact of the matter is there will always be a place for the nicely bred, well mannered, well produced equine. If you don't like the prices that are offered for your stock you have to be prepared to keep them for a while but that has always been the case. If you can't hang on to them you have to accept what is offered or don't breed...
I agree thoroughly with GR's point about attatching human emotions to horses- I LOVE my horses, do they love me, well no, they respect me and we have a good human equine relationship but their love is reserved for their food. The only time I see genuine love from my horses is when the mares look at their foals (this is gone by day two when the foals attempt to stick their head in the food bowls
)I do think their are people who 'overbreed' and yes prices are down in the Market at the moment, but this is for everything! Does the word recession ring any bells?
The fact of the matter is there will always be a place for the nicely bred, well mannered, well produced equine. If you don't like the prices that are offered for your stock you have to be prepared to keep them for a while but that has always been the case. If you can't hang on to them you have to accept what is offered or don't breed...
Revena
Well-Known Member
*there
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Before any more people try to be sychophantic, rose tinted, do-gooders and tell me that trying to have a business and indeed a business plan in equestrianism is wrong, let me just say that this is a horse I took a gamble on as he made his way as an untouched, unhandled, unbroken, untried, skinny, malnourished, 6 year old with no known breeding to the factory.
I swapped him for a horse who had suffered an injury and gone chronically lame and next thing you know, despite beginning his competitive career at 7, here is competing at 1.30m.
This horse has since been sold to England and is now competing with Sue Walker from Duckhurst Farm.
Basically what I'm saying is, there's not a professional breeder on the planet that doesn't love their horses. I'm 24, this is my life. Despite what the fluffy rabbit brigade want to happen, horses still have to pay for themselves and put bread on the table, children through school, trips on holiday etc.
So how dare anyone even attempt to criticise me or any other professional breeder for accepting that business is infact, business. We still have income and expenditure columns to fill. Still have profit and loss accounts. Still have depreciation of assets.
If anything, the equstrian sector is more like The Apprentice than anyone would like to admit.
Showjumpers must showjump. Eventers must event. That's what they do. Breeders must be there to ensure that when horses are sold or die or whatever, that there is another one there to take it's place. That's the nature of the business.
Me? I can't afford to breed and showjump but I can't afford not to either!
Bertthefrog
Well-Known Member
I'm aware of several breeders that have significantly cut down on coverings last year, and this year too.
That said - the market is as strong as it has ever been for top end horses so why shouldn't those breeding for this end of the market continue to do so.
tristar
Well-Known Member
tazhazzamoose, hope i"ve spelt it correctly!, thanks for posing the questions, i have thought along those lines for a long time, you are not alone!
when i groom my stallion quite often he will wrap his neck around me and hold me to him, so i hold his head in my arms, we stand like this for about five minutes, i would dispute anyone who would suggest that he is not displaying love for me, i think the degree to which one attributes emotions in animals is due to one's personal experience or natural awareness and empathy, no one can have my exact experience or has the right to invalidate it, it is mine alone.
yes i do think that animals experience the same emotions as people, and are capable of making certain moral decisions.
the horses i breed, i break and train, why else would i breed them, i want to experience the whole process, only by doing this can i truly know if i have succeeded.
some mainland european studs are producing 1000 foals per year, i call it breeding by numbers, a lottery of if you breed x amount you might get a few champions.
you can see on various forums that the same training problems arise again and again and that there is lack of understanding of how to train horses, i might suggest that anyone embarking upon training to incorporate compassion along with all the other qualities needed and realise that horses do have emotions one of the reasons they are reactive, and try to culti
vate empathy as a way of tuning in to the horses experience.
when i groom my stallion quite often he will wrap his neck around me and hold me to him, so i hold his head in my arms, we stand like this for about five minutes, i would dispute anyone who would suggest that he is not displaying love for me, i think the degree to which one attributes emotions in animals is due to one's personal experience or natural awareness and empathy, no one can have my exact experience or has the right to invalidate it, it is mine alone.
yes i do think that animals experience the same emotions as people, and are capable of making certain moral decisions.
the horses i breed, i break and train, why else would i breed them, i want to experience the whole process, only by doing this can i truly know if i have succeeded.
some mainland european studs are producing 1000 foals per year, i call it breeding by numbers, a lottery of if you breed x amount you might get a few champions.
you can see on various forums that the same training problems arise again and again and that there is lack of understanding of how to train horses, i might suggest that anyone embarking upon training to incorporate compassion along with all the other qualities needed and realise that horses do have emotions one of the reasons they are reactive, and try to culti
vate empathy as a way of tuning in to the horses experience.
the watcher
Well-Known Member
This has turned into quite an interesting debate.
I breed in a very small way compared to many on this forum. I give my mare a break of one year between foals, not because I thinks she needs it, but because up until recently I have combined breeding and horses with full time work. I know it isn't ideal and that her fertility would be more guaranteed if we bred every year. She would like it too, she is never happier than when she is in foal or has a foal at foot.
My breeding choices are carefully considered (agonised over, even) as I always have one eye on where I could go with the next one or two generations.
Yes, like many of you I am quietly infuriated with those who appear to breed indiscriminately - there is a small stud just down the road from me where they run out a real mix of mares with whichever stallion they can get hold of, even gypsy cast-offs, with no real thought for the quality of the outcomes. Horses come and go, nothing is swabbed or health checked or scanned, ever. As long as people continue to buy their horses they will continue to breed them.
If anybody has a realistic idea of how to limit this, without penalising the entire industry, I would love to hear it.
I breed in a very small way compared to many on this forum. I give my mare a break of one year between foals, not because I thinks she needs it, but because up until recently I have combined breeding and horses with full time work. I know it isn't ideal and that her fertility would be more guaranteed if we bred every year. She would like it too, she is never happier than when she is in foal or has a foal at foot.
My breeding choices are carefully considered (agonised over, even) as I always have one eye on where I could go with the next one or two generations.
Yes, like many of you I am quietly infuriated with those who appear to breed indiscriminately - there is a small stud just down the road from me where they run out a real mix of mares with whichever stallion they can get hold of, even gypsy cast-offs, with no real thought for the quality of the outcomes. Horses come and go, nothing is swabbed or health checked or scanned, ever. As long as people continue to buy their horses they will continue to breed them.
If anybody has a realistic idea of how to limit this, without penalising the entire industry, I would love to hear it.
Alec Swan
...
I haven't read through all the posts, so I'll apologise, in advance, if I'm repeating the thoughts of others, and these are just my thoughts.
We breed today for four years time, or there abouts. If we accept that short of it all going into melt down, there will always be a market, for the very best, regardless of the field of interest, it's those horses, now being covered, which are, perhaps a little less than ideal, where we find a problem.
The market place will dictate the value of a horse, regardless of what the doting breeder may think! There are many TB fillies, who were destined for stud duties, and 10 year old brood mares, who've failed to produce winners, who are now being set on one side, and quite rightly so. The TB industry has always been based on a profit making plane. The more astute Sport Horse breeders, are now getting in step with this thinking, and again rightly so.
Recessions, tend to be cyclical, in as much that we have periods of boom and bust. We recover from bust, we have a 10 year, or so, period of plenty, and then we're in the doldrums, again. I suspect that the current difficulties which we're currently enjoying, may be a little longer lasting than previous market down turns.
It's always been the same. During the successful years, many will jump on the bandwagon, along come the down times, and it becomes a buyer's market. Apart from a horse or two, I also keep a few sheep, and the current value of breeding ewes is not sustainable, and when the next ovine crash arrives, and it will, then those £150 breeding ewes, will be for sale for £5. It's lunacy, but it's the way that it is!!
Whilst the Continental approach to breeding, seems to me to make far more sense, the time will come, when the lesser mares will be discarded, and then the battle field, for the stallion owners, will become fierce!! For every first class mare, from the breeding view point, we are still spoilt for choice with stallions, for now anyway!
However the smaller breeders, and I'm amongst them, are hurt, I suspect that in 10 years time, we'll begin to reap the rewards of the current difficulties.
Alec.
We breed today for four years time, or there abouts. If we accept that short of it all going into melt down, there will always be a market, for the very best, regardless of the field of interest, it's those horses, now being covered, which are, perhaps a little less than ideal, where we find a problem.
The market place will dictate the value of a horse, regardless of what the doting breeder may think! There are many TB fillies, who were destined for stud duties, and 10 year old brood mares, who've failed to produce winners, who are now being set on one side, and quite rightly so. The TB industry has always been based on a profit making plane. The more astute Sport Horse breeders, are now getting in step with this thinking, and again rightly so.
Recessions, tend to be cyclical, in as much that we have periods of boom and bust. We recover from bust, we have a 10 year, or so, period of plenty, and then we're in the doldrums, again. I suspect that the current difficulties which we're currently enjoying, may be a little longer lasting than previous market down turns.
It's always been the same. During the successful years, many will jump on the bandwagon, along come the down times, and it becomes a buyer's market. Apart from a horse or two, I also keep a few sheep, and the current value of breeding ewes is not sustainable, and when the next ovine crash arrives, and it will, then those £150 breeding ewes, will be for sale for £5. It's lunacy, but it's the way that it is!!
Whilst the Continental approach to breeding, seems to me to make far more sense, the time will come, when the lesser mares will be discarded, and then the battle field, for the stallion owners, will become fierce!! For every first class mare, from the breeding view point, we are still spoilt for choice with stallions, for now anyway!
However the smaller breeders, and I'm amongst them, are hurt, I suspect that in 10 years time, we'll begin to reap the rewards of the current difficulties.
Alec.
Megibo
Well-Known Member
sorry for being away from the thread i've been in hosp a few days.
as others have said there are some interesting views on here, and i agree with attaching human emotions to horses-i realise i've partially done that and some people have made sense with saying mares would naturally want to have babies other than do nothing (they would be mums every year in the wild) and if it's their job to be a mum they should have babies every year.
someone said horses dont love you, or similar, i'm not sure its love exactly but i think a horse can feel strongly about you. i've had my mare 6 years and she always seems affectionate toward me and comes to me for comfort etc but that goes under a whole new topic about whether or not they have feelings. they do-just not quite as in depth as ours
as others have said there are some interesting views on here, and i agree with attaching human emotions to horses-i realise i've partially done that and some people have made sense with saying mares would naturally want to have babies other than do nothing (they would be mums every year in the wild) and if it's their job to be a mum they should have babies every year.
someone said horses dont love you, or similar, i'm not sure its love exactly but i think a horse can feel strongly about you. i've had my mare 6 years and she always seems affectionate toward me and comes to me for comfort etc but that goes under a whole new topic about whether or not they have feelings. they do-just not quite as in depth as ours
pintoarabian
Well-Known Member
Just because a mare can have a foal every year, doesn't mean that she should. Why not in an ideal world where good homes are easily found and the world is bathed in a rosy glow? Many women too could have a baby every year and it is within living memory when large families were commonplace. Almost all women would throw a wobbly now if they were expected to fulfill that role. If it hadn't been for birth control the world would be vastly overpopulated, much more so than it is today. We are now in a position where the horse world is overpopulated with supply vastly exceeding demand. Without breeders exercising some sort of restraint, the future is even more bleak than the present. Just my opinion and I will either be proved right or wrong.