Overhandled as youngsters, now bratty – what to do about them!?

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Morgan123

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I’ve come across quite a few horses who have been overhandled as youngsters; either they’re hand-reared, or else they’re a first homebred, or ‘rescued as a foal’, or bought as someone’s first foal because they always wanted a palomino foal or whatever. As a rule they seem to:

Have personal space issues and are bargey, in-your-face and rude
Lack interaction skills with other horses
Are horrendous in the school and incredibly lazy
Very spooky to hack out alone and require a lot of reassurance and security.

I avoid them and wouldn’t buy a horse that I thought had been overhandled. However, one of my friends has ended up with one as her first horse, and is running out of ideas, so I’m interested to hear what other people do about this.

Hers is very nippy so she’s already had to instigate a no hand feeding rule, but the things she is really stuck on is the laziness in the school because he won’t do ANYTHING, literally refuses to canter at all and very hard to get him to move. I’ve suggested that she tried making it fun, e.g. maybe having other ponies in there are playing follow the leader walk to canter, mounted games – anything like that because he clearly thinks there’s no point! However, I am sure there must be lots of other things people have tried…? Has anyone had success with reschooling overhandled horses and if so, what did you do?

Thanks!
 
Honestly, I think a person like Michael Peace or Kelly Marks Intelligent Horsemanship RA is the way to go here. If it is already very ingrained in its behaviour it is going to take quite a mental shift to get it to become a real horse, rather than a horse-human.

She is lucky that it can be handled successfully, sometimes hand-reared or over handled horses are beyond helping and end up being PTS as they don't have any respect for humans and don't know how to behave around other horses. It can be very sad.
 
I don't think my mare was over handled as a youngster but who knows I guess! She is spooky at times but not bargey, anywho I was only going to say getting a good instructor to ride my mare has made a massive difference to her way of going the school.

She was lazy and needed so much effort to keep going that it was impossible to progress. I had advice on here about working her properly which I dont feel able to do and so I now have someone come to school her, she is very quick to correct her misdemeanours and won't allow her not to work forward . I rode her after 3 sessions with the instructor and she's a different horse, completely reactive to aids, forward going just amazing. I will have the instructor teach me after Christmas in tins session to that I can get the same tune out of her that she does but right now she is learning, then we will progress together.

Advice then get someone who knows what there doing to ride and get her moving off the leg, someone confident who can correct quickly, this seems to be the big difference in my experience.
 
In the long run we have horse to have fun.
Most problems occur when someone takes on a horse which is not suited to their skills.
One can get help from a more experienced person, it won't sort itself.
Even once the problem is sorted, their will always be the danger of regression, so the owner has to up her skills. There is not really any other way.
Even in professional hands some horses especially those not reared naturally, have not learned about pecking order and so on, they may be willing to learn, but if they have a bad attitude it may be a struggle.
One must be consistent and not allow any fluffy bunny stuff ........... obviously no "treats". Usually once the owner has toughened up the horse learns how to behave. Violence is not involved [at least not on the owners part!]
The worse case of this invloved a VERY LARGE TB CHESTNUT MARE. I still have the bite mark!
Her owner bredder told us all mares were like her ........... NO .......... his mare was like this because for four years she had ruled the roost.
 
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I have one who was bottle reared and yes he is bargy and in your face. I have him out with my other pony who has taught him some normal equine behaviour. I am currently teaching him to back off when I approach with food which he is finding very difficult, but I think we are making progress.
It's almost as if he doesn't respond the way a 'normal' pony would because he is too humanised. Can't help with the ridden issues as mine is a titchy companion pony. But I have done agility with him and that was very helpful with his behaviour towards me at least.
 
A friend of mine had a lovely chestnut gelding, well bred but definitely over-handled. He showed all the habits in the OPs message, plus he was clueless in the field and was always getting hammered because he had no idea about horse body language, pecking order etc. We lost count of the hoof prints he would come in with and he didn't deserve it. It wasn't his fault he had spent more time with people "cuddling" him than he had playing with other horses.
 
fatpiggy said:
A friend of mine had a lovely chestnut gelding, well bred but definitely over-handled. He showed all the habits in the OPs message, plus he was clueless in the field and was always getting hammered because he had no idea about horse body language, pecking order etc. We lost count of the hoof prints he would come in with and he didn't deserve it. It wasn't his fault he had spent more time with people "cuddling" him than he had playing with other horses.
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That's really, really sad. :(
 
Thanks all! A bit sad isn't it, I've also seen a few who act more like dogs than horses and end up getting really bullied becuase they just don't know when to back off the other horses. From what I've read, overhandled ones either end up bullied or the bullies!

Agility is an interesting idea!!

I'm not normally a massive fan of all the dominance stuff in IH but think it could be useful in this instance and have suggested that to her. He was delivered with a dually so presumably somene tried this before ;-)!
 
My mare was my first homebred, she was overhandled as a baby and is bargey and in your face but has no other 'characteristics.' She's not very spooky, is extremely good to hack and has a grasp of social skills. But the laziness is not one I've come across before.

Interesting isn't it how much people attribute to nurture and nature!
 
The best way to deal with over-handled youngsters is to start from scratch. Move out of the past and teach them the 'rules' of the present. I've had a number of horses like this (mostly ones who come here for backing); I own one now; she's a huge Holsteiner mare, injured herself as a foal and thus her breeder molly coddled her totally. I bought her as a 5 year old, I've owned her now for a couple of years and yes she *was* bargey, in your face, pushy and all the usual over-handled nonsense ... but she isn't now. She's still very affectionate and that's okay by me but she is well behaved now and she does take my lead on how to behave.

If your friend isn't used to handling horses like this then my suggestion would be to send the horse away for a month, maybe two, and at the end of this stint have the trainer work with the owner to reaffirm the correct way of handling the horse. Your friend would be amazed at how much difference a good hands-on trainer can achieve and all she has to do is continue on the same path.
 
I have two like this, the first, my anglo is admittedly my fault and had all the faults mentioned in OP (besides schooling issue) I found that turning him away over winter and just giving him time to grow up and mature the issues have naturally gone if that makes sence? Hes matured into a lovely respectfu and well behaved boy who I cannot fault. I never shouted or tried to "correct bad behavior" as he always does his best to please because hes such a "people person" I have been theough hell and back with him in the past with his bratish behaviour and found just ignoring it and walking away rather shouting or smacking was the best form punishment for him and giving him time out just to mature as a proper pony and learn to socialise with others and work his way up the herd worked for us.

So basically I did nothing and in time hes sorted himself out lol
 
Spring Feather said:
If your friend isn't used to handling horses like this then my suggestion would be to send the horse away for a month, maybe two, and at the end of this stint have the trainer work with the owner to reaffirm the correct way of handling the horse. Your friend would be amazed at how much difference a good hands-on trainer can achieve and all she has to do is continue on the same path.
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Exactly this. It's not what's happened in the past, but what your friend can do in the present to sort it. Being lazy in the school is a common schooling issue with green horses, regardless of how much handling they may or may not have had, so perhaps some riding lessons would help too.
 
OP, whilst I agree that overhandled youngsters can become bargey, I have never heard of them being lazy to ride. I have encountered a few overhandled youngsters and none of them have had this habit. I have also known plenty of horses that have not been overhandled that are 'lazy' to ride. However, I would stress, that in the majority of cases where a horse is very reluctant to go forward and gets labelled as 'lazy', there is a very real physical cause. I would be doing a full work up and veterinary investigation before labelling any horse 'lazy.
 
Very sad for your friend to end up in this situation - but I have to admit its a relief for me to see that overhandling causes issues like this! My yearling is out 24/7, I go and check on him in the field from time to time (yard staff look in on him daily) but other than that I dont do much with him at all. Yet I feel like a bad person with the way others at my yard act with their youngsters (we have 3 two year olds at the yard) - they are pampered princesses really and the owners in a not so direct way make me feel very guilty for having mine out and hardly touching him!

All 3 are stabled at night and only get a few hours out per day (despite yard offering 24/7 turnout if required, all year round), One of them in particular is showing classic signs of overhandling, she rears, weaves, has an awful cough, nips....she's generally a proper little madam. Owner is at the yard twice a day messing around with her, lunging her already, putting her in pretty bandages, washing her tail almost daily, rugged up to the eyeballs.....she is going to be a PAIN when she's older and that's very clear to see. Owner is experienced but this is her first youngster, bought her as a 1 year old.

I'm the outcast of the young horse owners lol, Bean is dirty, has a matted mane (he keeps sticking it in a bush with burrs so I give up trying to get them out), only just had a rug chucked on him as he was cold (v.fine skinned WB)....heck he jumped a gate 2 weeks after I got him, massive wound and box rest for 2 months - chucked him straight back out again! He was turning into a monkey after only 2 months of being in, couldnt wait to get him back out again! He is great with the farrier, leads very well (in fact leads the other 8 year old he lives out with as he's a big wimp!), went on the lorry fine to and from horsey hospital, stands tied up (did all that with him in the first month of having him) - I dont feel there is anything else I need to do now so I'll leave him alone. Might take him out to do some in hand 2 year old showing next year if terrible two's dont come on too strong....but beyond that he is left alone to be a horse with his horsey pals.

In terms of your friend - all I can say is she needs to get some help with this one as I honestly dont feel there is much an amateur can do with a horse who has had a bad past (either mistreated or overhandled). The laziness is an odd one though, I've never seen truly lazy horses unless they have health issues (the 8 year old I ride was incredibly lazy, turned out to be severe ulcers) so has she done all the usual health checks? But mainly she needs to get a trainer, ideally someone specialising with young horses to give her guidance on a frequent basis. Failing that turn away in a herd, leave the horse alone until next Spring and start again.
 
There is a bit of a tendency with humans to ascribe behaviour to the most obvious cause.

"Hers is very nippy so she’s already had to instigate a no hand feeding rule, but the things she is really stuck on is the laziness in the school because he won’t do ANYTHING, literally refuses to canter at all and very hard to get him to move"

If you described this youngster to me, my first thought would be (a) this horse is in physical discomfort, and both the nipping (especially if it happens when being handled, groomed, tacked up or touched on flanks or belly) and the "laziness" both sound like a horse with either gastric ulcers or other abdominal discomfort. That leads me to (b) was the horse at any stage in its early life (assuming it is now still a young, fairly recently backed horse) in a situation where it was stressed and at the same time had a fairly major change in diet? The answer to these with many young horses is yes, during weaning - and that's when gastric ulceration is most likely to occur. If the horse you describe is handreared, that's even more likely to be an issue, since for some reason it has been weaned very early or unexpectedly.

So the issues you describe could have more than one cause - and the cause may not be overhandling or "too soft" handling at all. But because these are the things that many people suggest, underlying causes are often not investigated and the young horse is punished for trying to express discomfort in the mistaken belief that it's being "naughty", "dominant" or "pushy".
 
Kc 100 There's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing daily stuff with youngsters and there's nothing wrong with doing nothing with them (provided they learned the basics as foals). It's the manner in which things are done, and the way in which people handle youngsters that can be the problem. I could do all the things your peers are doing with my youngsters and it would be seen as learning experiences; that's just fine if you want to teach them these things that they'll need to know as mature horses but then you have to do it in the same matter of fact way you would if it were an older horse. Most of the problems come when people treat youngsters as 'ikkle babies' and I don't know how many times I've heard people say 'ooh but he's just a baby' well yeah but he'll not be forever and these people are just making a rod for their own back (actually generally not as they get rid of them when they get too big and pushy for them to be able to handle!). It's something that irritates me and if people just dealt with their young horses in the same way as they do older horses it would be much better for the horse. Obviously you do have to make some allowances and the time-frames of basic learning must be shorter because they're younger etc but if one wouldn't let an older horse drag you around then one should not accept that sort of behaviour from a youngster either. Raising a well adjusted youngster really is not rocket science, it's mainly about having common sense and being able to look further than the end of your nose.
 
My old horse was a bit like this. I got him when he was 5 from a pony club home and they were totally overhorsed. They had labled him as a rig (didn't disclose that to me) and sold him on. He was my first horse but luckily I had good experience with youngsters from foals upwards through work in my teens.

He was bought by a few owners before me from travellers and was I think tethered and driven as a yearling. He just didn't know how to socialise at all, with horses or people.

In his first year with Me he got himself into a lot of trouble. He'd jump from field to field continuously trying to play (quite roughly) with every other horse and get beaten black and blue, until YO made me keep him alone. I corrected his behaviour in hand by firm consistent handling (and no treats from the hand) and one and then 2 of the other liveries allowed him to be turned out with their older, really quite dominant horses and they taught him a few manners. In the meantime he was unruly and a bit of a thug but slowly he improved.

He also didn't know how to go forwards in the school so I fixed that by schooling out on hacks and then transferring that into the school. He was always good to hack and was quite brave. He had an awesome awsome jump!!!! He ended up getting 70% at novice dressage and getting us placed intro eventing which was more than I ever expected.

I always had to be careful who he was turned out with or who handled him as if human or horse gave him an inch he would take a mile, but we settled into a good routine.

He turned, ironically, into the perfect pony club horse. I sold him very honestly to a home with three girls and they have all competed him at pony club level. He's bern on all the teams and was horse of the year for their branch. He will be them forever and I have first refusal on him if they ever do sell him. He's 18 now.

I did once find his old owner on here, really slagging him off. (He has a very unique name)?It was obvious to me (and the vet that vetted him for me too) that they were over horsed and the best thing they did for him and me was to sell him. A bit more honesty would have been good but I figured him out. When I discovered that they thought he was a rig through a mutual friend I had him tested. He wasn't!!!
 
I think a lazy horse is a lazy horse and over handling as a foal is probably not relevant. A lot of the other behaviours, yet and it does sound as though your friend is making progress with this horse.

As long as the horse isn't in pain which is causing the laziness I would think that a good instructor - who is prepared to get on - would be my first step.
 
Agree that over handling makes youngsters horrible to deal with but I also agree that it is unlikely to cause laziness. Assuming that there is nothing physically wrong with the pony can you get her out of the school and out hacking alongside an older well behaved horse/pony? I produce a lot of young horses and as soon as they are backed and know the basic commands I get them out - I really do not think that everlasting circles will help a lazy one at all but hopefully it will copy the behaviour of a schoolmaster out on a ride.
 
I agree hand-reared/over indulged youngsters can be 'brattish' undisciplined and unrespectful, but I don't think laziness in the school is caused by this. A lot of green horses are lazy in the school, and I find the best way is to teach them 'forward is fun'- only school once a week max, the other days hack out, in company and alone, and school- transitions, bend etc during hacks and do a bit of circling and serpentines in field corners and wider bits of path.
As for the disrespectful barging, nipping etc- from now on do not allow any of it- make the horse step back immediately you enter the stable, move left and right away from you, stand tied for as long as you want, etc etc. Even if you have to enter the table with a stick to enable you to move the horse without being kicked yourself,
I speak from experience, having handreared a horse myself and dealing with several other handreared ones.
My nightmare horse- one that's advertised as '16.2 3yr old, bottle fed, a pure pet'.... and yes, Ive seen this exact wording on adverts!! :D
 
It's not over handling, it's wrong handling. My old boy was hand reared and he was nothing like you describe. Thanks for his good manners goes to his old groom who spent time giving him good handling and showing him where the boundaries were. She really set him up for success and he owed her a real debt of gratitude.
 
And yes- its incorrect handling, not lots of handling, that make a horse get disrespectful. The more correct handling you can do with youngsters the better. But with handreared foals, it is quite difficult- not impossible, but difficult- to get the foal to learn the same respect from you as it would have done if it had had a mother teaching it the boundaries.
 
Interesting discussion guys thanks :)

The whole handling youngsters is something I have been mulling over of late. I have limited experience, the two places I have worked have been polar opposites with regards to handling their foals and youngsters; however, what spring feather has said makes total sense to me difficult to be consistent when you only work twice a week! A lot of the over-handling behaviours are ringing quite true though.
 
Spring Feather said:
Kc 100 There's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing daily stuff with youngsters and there's nothing wrong with doing nothing with them (provided they learned the basics as foals). It's the manner in which things are done, and the way in which people handle youngsters that can be the problem. I could do all the things your peers are doing with my youngsters and it would be seen as learning experiences; that's just fine if you want to teach them these things that they'll need to know as mature horses but then you have to do it in the same matter of fact way you would if it were an older horse. Most of the problems come when people treat youngsters as 'ikkle babies' and I don't know how many times I've heard people say 'ooh but he's just a baby' well yeah but he'll not be forever and these people are just making a rod for their own back (actually generally not as they get rid of them when they get too big and pushy for them to be able to handle!). It's something that irritates me and if people just dealt with their young horses in the same way as they do older horses it would be much better for the horse. Obviously you do have to make some allowances and the time-frames of basic learning must be shorter because they're younger etc but if one wouldn't let an older horse drag you around then one should not accept that sort of behaviour from a youngster either. Raising a well adjusted youngster really is not rocket science, it's mainly about having common sense and being able to look further than the end of your nose.
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This, I have a 'baby' cob, I am aware he needs taught manners, just as my rescued WB mare (20yrs old) needed taught manners, be consistent, have short 'lessons' and stay calm, they remember their manners in a very short time, manners make life with horses so much easier, I also have never known a baby be lazy, my 'baby' cob always wants to get on and do something new
 
ClobellsandBaubles said:
Interesting discussion guys thanks :)

The whole handling youngsters is something I have been mulling over of late. I have limited experience, the two places I have worked have been polar opposites with regards to handling their foals and youngsters; however, what spring feather has said makes total sense to me difficult to be consistent when you only work twice a week! A lot of the over-handling behaviours are ringing quite true though.
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Nothing wrong with twice a week, as long as the session ends on a positive, youngster can then digest the lesson, then next session picks it up quicker
 
Id second the hacking out, in company if need be for now. One thing which helped the retraining of mine was a schooling whip. Not to whack him with but as a visual aid. Held out straight in front when leading. Also when approaching, so they dont crowd into you- the handle end makes a good buffer so they realise where the personal space is. Plus things like keeping a visual distance when feeding, etc. I now have a polite 17 hander who doesnt need a visual marker any more but he was a totally bratty, pushy, spoilt nightmare as a yearling.
 
Wagtail said:
OP, whilst I agree that overhandled youngsters can become bargey, I have never heard of them being lazy to ride. I have encountered a few overhandled youngsters and none of them have had this habit. I have also known plenty of horses that have not been overhandled that are 'lazy' to ride. However, I would stress, that in the majority of cases where a horse is very reluctant to go forward and gets labelled as 'lazy', there is a very real physical cause. I would be doing a full work up and veterinary investigation before labelling any horse 'lazy.
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^^^^this
 
This is a really interesting thread. I have had my 'baby' from 8 months old. I did quite a bit with him, probably 3/4 times a week. Leading him around, picking up feet, walking, stopping, backing up, walking over poles etc.

He's nearly 4 (in jan) and is a good, well mannered horse. Yes, he's still young but everyone comments on how well behaved and polite he is. He's a PRE so very smart and a quick learner - both good & bad!

I'm turning him away this winter but going to do ground work with him, he gets bored & destructive fairly quickly!

Since having both a baby horse & a baby (2yo) I've noticed there are many similarities between the two. They both like boundaries, consistency & discipline. Without these, you end up with unruly youngsters.

I see it all the time with both children/horses, the parents/owners letting them get away with whatever they like. This results in rude, bargy & unpleasant children/horses to be around. It isn't the children/horses fault, it's those who have the job of teaching them how to be well mannered members of society.

I'm proud of both my babies, they're allowed to be young, but I also expect them to behave, and they do. :)
 
Spring Feather said:
Kc 100 There's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing daily stuff with youngsters and there's nothing wrong with doing nothing with them (provided they learned the basics as foals). It's the manner in which things are done, and the way in which people handle youngsters that can be the problem. I could do all the things your peers are doing with my youngsters and it would be seen as learning experiences; that's just fine if you want to teach them these things that they'll need to know as mature horses but then you have to do it in the same matter of fact way you would if it were an older horse. Most of the problems come when people treat youngsters as 'ikkle babies' and I don't know how many times I've heard people say 'ooh but he's just a baby' well yeah but he'll not be forever and these people are just making a rod for their own back (actually generally not as they get rid of them when they get too big and pushy for them to be able to handle!). It's something that irritates me and if people just dealt with their young horses in the same way as they do older horses it would be much better for the horse. Obviously you do have to make some allowances and the time-frames of basic learning must be shorter because they're younger etc but if one wouldn't let an older horse drag you around then one should not accept that sort of behaviour from a youngster either. Raising a well adjusted youngster really is not rocket science, it's mainly about having common sense and being able to look further than the end of your nose.
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this.
its not what you do really(within reason) its HOW you do it!

so shoot me now Goofy comes in at night(because all the others do and i cant leave him out alone) so he gets his feet picked out and oiled, a little groom, and his rug swapped every night.

probably 3/4 times a week i do something with him, be that going for a short walk round the school checking out the banners/flowers/flags etc (yes in pretty bandages) or doing a bit of familiarisation with clippers or leg washing etc.

I can quite assure you that he isnt bargey, nippy,pushy, lazy or in any way a brat-on the contrary he's the best behaved 2yo colt ive had to work with thus far. We had an issue 2 weeks ago turning him out, but some work in a be nice halter has 100% sorted that, so any nonsense gets nipped in the bud PDQ.
 
my Apache was hand reared, and then left entire. I didn't buy him as a project horse, but as a county show horse. The first year was interesting to say the least, but we got through it, and yes he still has the odd bite when he's stressed, he is a wonderful horse.

I was quite experienced and did struggle with him in the early days (although he'd never been lazy in the slightest!), I think firm consistent handling is key, and lots of praise when all is going well.
 
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