Overnight hay amounts

[setterlover]

What do people think.
After chatting to the vet I really am in a bit of a quandary.
The horse are out in the day (8 until around 6) on. paddock restricted to about half an acre it's green but quite limited grass on it I move the fence 2 paces every 3 to 4 days.
The vet said that they only need very minimal hay overnight when I said I weighed about 3 to 4 kilo of wrapped hay each scattered out at the back of the pole barn from 6 pm to 8 am. She said they don't need any hay at all they would get enough from the grazing.
I really don't feel I can leave then with nothing for 14 hours that surely can't be good for them.The pole barn is bedded with wood pellets and shavings .
They are 15 hands Welsh/Arab ( weight 360 kilo)and. 16 hands Andalusian/ T/B (500 kilo)
I use wrapped hay as the Arab/Welsh has COPD and coughs badly on hay ( even soaked,) fed from the ground because of the COPD
Thoughts

 

[ycbm]

You have a vet advising you that your horses can be left 14 hours overnight with no food? To be quite honest I think that vet needs reporting. I think it's pretty firmly established that's likely to result in ulcers because horses produce acid constantly between around 6am and 3am the next morning. So the only time it's OK to leave then with nothing in their stomachs is that later part of the night/very early morning.

They sound a good weight, but are your horses overweight on a condition score, more than a 6/10? Are you feeding the lowest food value of wrapped hay available? Will the COPD horse cough if fed good clean straw (if you can find any! ). You could consider, maybe, leaving a trug of plain chopped bagged straw.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

Give them straw chop not hay .
Mine are stabled I give them two kilos low energy haylege last thing and a heap of straw each .
You have introduce straw slowly .
Mine don’t like it enough to gorge but they will gorge hay or haylage .
The fact they leave some straw but would eat two huge nets of long forage overnights tells me they eat for entertainment.
They are both too fat .
It’s taken me many years to realise I have to do this .

 

[canteron]

I am guessing your horses are good doers and possibly overweight?
If overweight then at this time of year reducing the laminitis risk is more important than the ulcer risk.
If you weigh tape your horses (I do it twice a week) you will quickly understand what to feed to either maintain or reduce the weight.
You can always invest in greedy nets and a little bit of barley straw to help.

 

[setterlover]

The COPD will cough badly and show heave lines if fed straw .They are good doers but you can see the outline of the ribs on the Arab/ Welsh.less so on the t/B Andalusian.I weigh tape every week and maintain the same weight.
Will investigate chop.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses produce less stomach in darkness that may have driven the vets advice .
But fourteen hours is a long time to be left .
I would be looking at straw if you are buying wrapped hay buying top chop zero won’t be much more costly .

 

[Glitterandrainbows]

Give them straw chop not hay .
Mine are stabled I give them two kilos low energy haylege last thing and a heap of straw each .
You have introduce straw slowly .
Mine don’t like it enough to gorge but they will gorge hay or haylage .
The fact they leave some straw but would eat two huge nets of long forage overnights tells me they eat for entertainment.
They are both too fat .
It’s taken me many years to realise I have to do this .

I do this aswell I soak and weigh the correct amount of hay then leave a net of straw the hay gets hoovered up but the straw it depends sometimes only a little has gone and sometimes all

 

[ycbm]

Look for Horeychop light. In spite of the brand name it's pure straw.
.

Will investigate chop.

 

[Goldenstar]

Your horse with the delicate wind should be alright with Top Chop zero mine is .
Mine won’t eat honey chop straw I had to give up with it .

 

[ycbm]

Your horse with the delicate wind should be alright with Top Chop zero mine is .
Mine won’t eat honey chop straw I had to give up with it .

My PRE was half way through the bag of TCZ within a couple of hours, I had to take it away!
.

 

[setterlover]

Horses produce less stomach in darkness that may have driven the vets advice .
But fourteen hours is a long time to be left .
I would be looking at straw if you are buying wrapped hay buying top chop zero won’t be much more costly .

We make all our own wrapped hay from unfertilised pasture. So don't buyin

 

[Goldenstar]

Impaction colic is a risk of feeding large amounts of straw or straw chop one of the good things about top chop zero is that they softened it .
Straw is not best choice for Horses at risk of impaction
OP are your horses at home ?

 

[DabDab]

If your horses are a good weight, happy etc, then why would you change what you are doing?

 

[ycbm]

We make all our own wrapped hay from unfertilised pasture. So don't buyin

Do you soak it?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I wouldn't trust that vet with any if my animals tbh. I have fed Honeychop plain oat straw chaff (not light & lean) successfully but I like my horses to have access to ad-lib forage. Leaving them for hours at a time without forage opens the way for all sorts of problems, not just ulcers but habits that arise from boredom/hunger such as windsurfing, wood chewing etc.

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't trust that vet with any if my animals tbh. I have fed Honeychop plain oat straw chaff (not light & lean) successfully but I like my horses to have access to ad-lib forage. Leaving them for hours at a time without forage opens the way for all sorts of problems, not just ulcers but habits that arise from boredom/hunger such as windsurfing, wood chewing etc.

Oh dear I'm so sorry PaS but you've typo'd the best laugh of the morning Where can I go to see these windsurfing horses?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Oh dear I'm so sorry PaS but you've typo'd the best laugh of the morning Where can I go to see these windsurfing horses?

I don't know but will you let me know when you find out, please? We can go and watch them together!

Blummin' autocorrect!


Eta, I'm not going to correct that! It's to good for others to miss

 

[Nasicus]

Did the vet misunderstand that they don't have access to the grass/grazing at night?

 

[setterlover]

Did the vet misunderstand that they don't have access to the grass/grazing at night?

I showed her the paddock and the pole barn and corralled area and actually said this is where they are shut off the grass at night!

 

[setterlover]

Do you soak it?

No not soaked he refuses to touch it soaked I tried it for 2 weeks and every day threw it all away .
I will reduce what I am putting out and put it out later so they will have something in their stomachs when they first come in.

 

[Surbie]

I am surprised at the vet's advice - seems pretty odd for anyone involved in equine health.

Mine loves honeychop plain oat straw. I mix in some herbs with a couple of stubbs scoops and dampen it, and every bit is gone in the morning. He'd probably eat TCZ but the smell of the artificial mint turns my stomach. For him long straw = coughing and impaction colic (previous owner's vet records)

PS @Pearlsasinger windsurfing horses just made me snort my coffee!

 

[motherof2beasts!]

I would never leave mine that long and do way more hay than that overnight , but he is a chunk so maybe I shouldn’t it is soaked for 10 hours and rinsed though. Could never ad-lib him as he never leaves a strand of it and it’s double your amount in nibbleze nets.

 

[tristars]

mine have food practically 24 7

more n the morning and evening, but always have something, hard to find grass, sometimes a few hours on decent grass, hay, hedegrows, when out they forage all day never see them stood still, i`say they walk miles grazing every day

at night they have a proper decent feed of hay, sometimes a bit left in the morning, very often not, they have a morning and evening bucket feed

despite all this they are super slim

if the vet told me to not feed them for that length of time i would have to disagree

i often feed hay in the day, if grazing is short, sometimes they eat it mostly not

whilst it can be true they eat the grass as it grows at certain moments in the year, the grass wood be 3 ft high if they did`nt, they still need fibre, and at the moment the may grass always seems to be low in fiber, and i have seen horses craving for fiber some years

if you are happy with the horses weight why change anything?

of course winter is a different regime for mine

 

[PurBee]

Carry on as you are and ignore the vets feed advice. Theyre not nutritionists, and the advice youve been given contradicts decades of feed advice from governing equine nutritional authorities.

Your own hay sounds perfect, organic mixed meadow.

The weight of your 2 sound ok, so dont change whats working well for them.

Regarding feeding straw, if you go that route, source certified organic straw not glyphosate sprayed commercial straw, as there’s numerous (independent from agri corporate funding) studies showing glyphosate altering pancreatic digestive enzymes and glycemic index, resulting in insulin sensitivity. Endocrine disruption is the main side effect from trace glyphosate:Roundup ingestion. Ive posted about this numerous times before, but its veering off topic of the thread so just leave it as a reminder to consider for those with lami prone fat horses feeding commercial straw.

 

[PurBee]

Here’s a message from a different thread a while back about a study on glyphosate effects on insulin sensitivity:

Considering glyphosate is an endocrine disruptor, i wouldnt ideally want any horse consuming the product/grass (no matter what the manufacturers say!) , let alone one with established endocrine issues:

Impact of Glyphosate on the Development of Insulin Resistance in Experimental Diabetic Rats: Role of NFκB Signalling Pathways

Glyphosate, an endocrine disruptor, has an adverse impact on human health through food and also has the potential to produce reactive oxygen species (ROS), which can lead to metabolic diseases. Glyphosate consumption from food has been shown to have a substantial part in insulin resistance...

www.mdpi.com

“Abstract​

Glyphosate, an endocrine disruptor, has an adverse impact on human health through food and also has the potential to produce reactive oxygen species (ROS), which can lead to metabolic diseases. Glyphosate consumption from food has been shown to have a substantial part in insulin resistance, making it a severe concern to those with type 2 diabetes (T2DM). However, minimal evidence exists on how glyphosate impacts insulin-mediated glucose oxidation in the liver. Hence the current study was performed to explore the potential of glyphosate toxicity on insulin signaling in the liver of experimental animals. For 16 weeks, male albino Wistar rats were given 50 mg, 100 mg and 250 mg/kg b. wt. of glyphosate orally. In the current study, glyphosate exposure group was linked to a rise in fasting sugar and insulin as well as a drop in serum testosterone. At the same time, in a dose dependent fashion, glyphosate exposure showed alternations in glucose metabolic enzymes. Glyphosate exposure resulted in a raise in H2O2 formation, LPO and a reduction in antioxidant levels those results in impact on membrane integrity and insulin receptor efficacy in the liver. It also registered a reduced levels of mRNA and protein expression of insulin receptor (IR), glucose transporter-2 (GLUT2) with concomitant increase in the production of proinflammatory factors such as JNK, IKKβ, NFkB, IL-6, IL-1β, and TNF-α as well as transcriptional factors like SREBP1c and PPAR-γ leading to pro-inflammation and cirrhosis in the liver which results in the development of insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Our present findings for the first time providing an evidence that exposure of glyphosate develops insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes by aggravating NFkB signaling pathway in liver.”

 

[setterlover]

I was asking as I have just had my coloured cob PTS with numerous issues and squamous cell carcinoma ( he was 25) Now down to 2 and musing about how to alter the regime to stay where I am weight wise.
The Arab/ Welsh is 24 and the T/B is half Andalusian and 19.mum was T/B and a very stocky build at 16 hh
I was happy with how they look but she insisted you need to have horses really skinny.
She then suggested both were tested for Ems and Cushings given their ages.
They were all tested a couple of years ago when the Arab was 22 and cob 23 and came back a resounding negative.
I was just a bit shocked that she seemed to think I was massively overfeeding them.
I weight tape every week and try to stay roughly about the same.

 

[ihatework]

What do they both condition score at?
Was the vet insinuating they are overweight?
Have either of them got any metabolic/lami/ems history or early symptoms?

 

[PurBee]

I was asking as I have just had my coloured cob PTS with numerous issues and squamous cell carcinoma ( he was 25) Now down to 2 and musing about how to alter the regime to stay where I am weight wise.
The Arab/ Welsh is 24 and the T/B is half Andalusian and 19.mum was T/B and a very stocky build at 16 hh
I was happy with how they look but she insisted you need to have horses really skinny.
She then suggested both were tested for Ems and Cushings given their ages.
They were all tested a couple of years ago when the Arab was 22 and cob 23 and came back a resounding negative.
I was just a bit shocked that she seemed to think I was massively overfeeding them.
I weight tape every week and try to stay roughly about the same.

Sorry for the loss of your cob. Are you concerned his issues were to do with your feed regime?

I have arab/welsh too and at 15hh yours is on the leaner side at 360kg, yet they can look fine lean. The vets ‘really skinny’ advice is perplexing.

If they look good weightwise with your regime, with no health symptoms, stick with it, there’s no need to alter what you feed.

FYI, mine are getting about 3-4kg each overnight 8hrs too, its what theyve settled on to be just about right weight. Ive experimented with varying feed regimes over the years with them. To cover 14hrs in, theyd be getting an extra 2kg and a beet bowl minerals feed usually. That makes it 6-7kg for 14hrs. Mine are roughly 390kg-450kg, 5 inch difference in heights. Can easily feel ribs, and only see with strained eye first 2 or 3 when bending. Rough average measurements.

 

[setterlover]

The Arab/ Welsh would score 6 and the T/B/Andalusian probably 6/7 .
I said I was happy with their weight but you could see the outline of the ribs on the Arab/Welsh .She said she likes to see horses scoring around 4/5 and with a reduced herd I need to be on top of it all the time.
Nether have shown any signs of problems other than the Arab/ Welsh COPD .A few years ago I had an Arab with Cushings so I am just super careful as he showed no early signs when I had him tested at 23 the vet said he would be astonished if he was Cushings as he had a super coat and no issues but came back with a reading over 300 .
Since then I do routinely test my oldies every couple of years.

 

[setterlover]

Sorry for the loss of your cob. Are you concerned his issues were to do with your feed regime?

I have arab/welsh too and at 15hh yours is on the leaner side at 360kg, yet they can look fine lean. The vets ‘really skinny’ advice is perplexing.

If they look good weightwise with your regime, with no health symptoms, stick with it, there’s no need to alter what you feed.

FYI, mine are getting about 3-4kg each overnight 8hrs too, its what theyve settled on to be just about right weight. Ive experimented with varying feed regimes over the years with them. To cover 14hrs in, theyd be getting an extra 2kg and a beet bowl minerals feed usually. That makes it 6-7kg for 14hrs. Mine are roughly 390kg-450kg, 5 inch difference in heights. Can easily feel ribs, and only see with strained eye first 2 or 3 when bending. Rough average measurements.

The cob had squamous cell carcinoma behind his eye which was growing quickly after initial treatment improved it .He had arthritis in his hind legs and was inclined to put on weight which I managed fairly well. so not a management issue he was just showing his age (25) and I didn't want dynamic intervention on the eye ( eye removed etc) decided to call it a day when it started to get larger and cause the eye to bulge.
I was just trying to sort out how the tweek their management having reduced the herd by 1.