Overpriced or is it me?

As others said, I wouldn’t buy him. But I go for a kind eye and an open, happy face. Then add £££ for talent!
 
be positive said:
Not the type I expected to see either, I expected a horse of real quality, this is a hunter/ RC horse, if he is straightforward enough he will be worth the money once he is out proving himself but way over priced as he is.
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He was advertised in the bracket of 7-7.5k when they bought him off the pro ?
 
I don't think the photos help. On a pro page with a decent conformation shot, a photo of him making a nice shape over a jump and a nice ridden flatwork shot as a blank canvas with good performance lines, then maybe. But from those photos, sold from the field and maybe some issues to sort out first then no.
 
Sunshine302 said:
He was advertised in the bracket of 7-7.5k when they bought him off the pro ?
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As a 3 year old, it may be 6 now so backed at 4 not 3 but that makes little difference with a horse that size, that was an ambitious price to ask for such a chunky type unless it showed some really special paces or jump, in which case it probably would have been sold to a pro or more experienced rider, not a nervous owner who was not up to bringing on a barely backed horse, it probably has a sweet nature, not too much talent so should have suited the owner but was possibly just too green when purchased, for the right money it could be worth taking on as probably hasn't been messed about but until it gets out proving itself its value will be limited because of the market it will suit.
 
be positive said:
As a 3 year old, it may be 6 now so backed at 4 not 3 but that makes little difference with a horse that size, that was an ambitious price to ask for such a chunky type unless it showed some really special paces or jump, in which case it probably would have been sold to a pro or more experienced rider, not a nervous owner who was not up to bringing on a barely backed horse, it probably has a sweet nature, not too much talent so should have suited the owner but was possibly just too green when purchased, for the right money it could be worth taking on as probably hasn't been messed about but until it gets out proving itself its value will be limited because of the market it will suit.
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What are you thinking then £ wise?
 
If I liked it, had a job that it was suitable for, had time, inclination and experience to bring it on without having to spend much to do so, vet issues would be a consideration but not really in the equation, then about half what they are asking would probably be fair, it is not worth anywhere near what it was as a young horse with 'potential' because it is now 2 years older, technically if only 18 months in real terms, has proved to be beyond the capabilities of the current owner, it may not be a problem horse but it is to her, it is not in work so cannot be tried in any meaningful way so the value has dropped massively since it was originally sold as a blank canvas, in work, ready to take on, it is a shame that what is probably a nice horse has ended up in the wrong home, for the owner as well as the horse, hopefully he will find someone prepared to put the work in and does not go to a dealer to get a quick tidy up and sold on as a novice ride in a few weeks time.
 
I used to do a lot of dressage writing, and at one time watched a lot of Prelim 7, at a large show centre. Practically every week or so the same pro would bring out a batch of young horses, each ridden the same effective way, held together with a seat and hand of iron. Very rarely did I see the same horse from this yard twice at this venue. I think buying from a pro has its pitfalls, it may look balanced and together but probabley not as much as you think. It may have some results, but has been hacked,or laid off for a couple of weeks while the kids are off school, most big yards have a horse walker. They present in its best light and like the shiney car with new leather seats people are sold a dream.
I used to hold the pony club sales list in our area and have just about heard every tale of woe. My advice is unless you are on a pro yard, always buy from someone who is perhaps a little bit more novice than you, and about the same facilities because if it hasn't killed them and they have had it more than two years the chances are it will not kill you and you could polish it up.
A top end dealer will be expecting at least 50% mark up, possibley more, so perhaps the price was fair. The vetting wouldn't worry me just what it did and why and I think you could only work that out by going to have a look if it really looked like something you liked. Every horse is a gamble its just deciding if you can afford the risk or wish to take it. I have bought ones I have only seen walk and trot down the road, the odd one not even that. I assess the seller as much I assess the horse.
 
I am no expert at all but he's bay (very dark) I think and not black for one thing! For another the fact that he is effectively a cross-bred horse would make it more difficult to know exactly what you will get in the end. He's not really big enough to appeal to a more ambitious market and there is a strong suggestion of problems though the horse may be perfectly innocent. It is surprising to see a horse like that advertised for that money though photos are not always helpful and he may be really lovely in the flesh. Even so, for that money it is possible to buy a well bred and uncomplicated youngster that may or may not have been sensibly started. If I was to spend that money and had competitive ambitions I would prefer to spend my money on something that may need professional bringing on but would more likely be a simpler proposition. I feel for the seller though as I imagine that they are taking a hit both in financial terms and in terms of their hopes for the horse and partnership with him.
 
They are awful pictures that I would not expect to awake any interest in buyers .
Based on those he’s over priced .
 
If I liked him in the flesh, if I believed the tale (which, let's face it, happens time and time again when people buy pro produced horses when the horse is too green and the new owner is too inexperienced, and they end up scaring each other), and if he passed the vet, I might pay £2.5k. He looks like a worried horse in the "ridden" photo, and I think the wording of the ad is clear - she knows she's not confident and she doesn't want to ride him again.

But actually I don't like IDxWBs, and there are reasons why there are less of them about than ten years ago, because if you get the less desirable traits of each in one horse, you're pretty much stuffed. I like the sire though.
 
I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss him as untalented, I've seen a couple from the same lines on the Irish side that are serious horses though chunky. Maybe not talented enough for a pro to aim at the top levels but good enough for a serious amateur.

However I think 2.5k is about right as you have no idea how easy the problems are to sort out and he's not being marketed in any way that is going to appeal to anyone.
 
criso said:
I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss him as untalented, I've seen a couple from the same lines on the Irish side that are serious horses though chunky. Maybe not talented enough for a pro to aim at the top levels but good enough for a serious amateur.

However I think 2.5k is about right as you have no idea how easy the problems are to sort out and he's not being marketed in any way that is going to appeal to anyone.
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I’d want to know more about the dam. With these crosses you are usually better with the dam being the ID.
 
Rowreach said:
I’d want to know more about the dam. With these crosses you are usually better with the dam being the ID.
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More showjumping lines by the look of it. I wasn't commenting on the temperament or the cross, just that a few people have been quick to dismiss as untalented and I don't necessarily think he is. Even with the dealers in the UK that bring over a lot of young Irish horses to sell, there's quite a price range and his original seller had some reason to price him at the top end of that range at 3 years old.
 
criso said:
More showjumping lines by the look of it. I wasn't commenting on the temperament or the cross, just that a few people have been quick to dismiss as untalented and I don't necessarily think he is. Even with the dealers in the UK that bring over a lot of young Irish horses to sell, there's quite a price range and his original seller had some reason to price him at the top end of that range at 3 years old.
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I was more concerned with the temperament, particularly if a buyer was wanting to sell on. He is certainly more draft in stamp than sport horse.

I have seen plenty of untalented horses sell for huge amounts (not saying he is, obviously) simply because it costs a lot to breed and produce any horse, and you never know what people will pay if you market it right ;)
 
My opinion is he is very plain to the eye, maybe better in life. He is too small to attract a pro and looks more suited to the RC or PC job or equally as a hunter he looks a pretty good stamp. The likes his turnout comment may mean he is a nightmare in the stable which again would put off pros, also meaning he is more suited to the above life. I would even be tempted if he were a mare.

But i would not pay more than £1000, maybe a bit more if he was shown with tack and someone sat on him to show he was sensibly mannered. But you are effectively betting you are better than anything he might throw at you and there are plenty of young horses in work with the current pricetag.
 
I suppose talent is a sliding scale and subjective. Absolute talent doesn’t always fetch the biggest price tags either - rich amateurs often spend big but they need sufficient talent but with priority on rideability.

Anyway, the horse as listed has nothing that would attract a buyer who was looking for a decent competition horse, there is little raw quality. That doesn’t mean that if it has the right temperament and in the right hands it couldn’t be made into a valuable horse in the future.

But as he stands I’d be in the 1.5-3k bracket
 
I'm looking now and would be this horse's target market in as much as I'm after a nice allrounder to do a bit of everything to no great standard. He's the size and shape I'd be after too. He's cheaper than some I've seen but more than quite a few others who are in work currently and with a lot more proven experience.

There's no way I'd consider him even at 1/2 the price because even though I could then afford to send him to be restarted, I can't guarantee what he'd be like after that and as a buyer who wants a forever horse, I know I'd find it hard to sell him on if he wasn't suitable so it's not a gamble I want to take. I know from having missed out on so many good horses by being the 2nd to phone that there are a lot of people like me out there. He hasn't got enough quality for a competitive rider and he hasn't got enough proven reliability for the more leisure end of the market. He therefore needs to be cheap enough for someone to buy a project, either to sell on or make for themselves. £2.5k would be the max I'd say.

ETA - a friend went to see a similarly advertised horse that was the same price. It cost £11k as a just broken 4yr old and was for sale at £5.5k 18 months on. Seller couldn't ride it as was pregnant. She'd had a rough time so horse had been out of work for 6 months. But with that one, it had lots of quality (from a very well known, reputable performance stud), a genuine reason for not being worked and seller had a friend to sit on it for 5 minutes to show he was sane. My friend rode it and popped a small jump on it (she only did it once as it wasn't fit). Friend liked him but didn't love him so opted against buying. He was the same price as this one and it's clear there was so much more to make him worth it.
 
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Original Poster what's your link to the horse?

Are you considering buying or is the seller a friend of yours? If buying, less than half what he's up for seems to be the consensus. If you know the seller, then at the very least a better photo of him smartened up and stood up properly. Might have to wait for a summer coat if he's wintering out. If they don't want to ride could they take videos of him loose schooling, even popping a jump. Either that or sales livery but either way be prepared to take a hit on the price.

A lot of people have said he's small, if he was 16hh at 3 I wonder if he still is, might be worth remeasuring. Mind you he might turn out to be smaller, I know lots of people who were sold 16.2's and measure once they got home to find out they were much less.
 
criso said:
More showjumping lines by the look of it. I wasn't commenting on the temperament or the cross, just that a few people have been quick to dismiss as untalented and I don't necessarily think he is. Even with the dealers in the UK that bring over a lot of young Irish horses to sell, there's quite a price range and his original seller had some reason to price him at the top end of that range at 3 years old.
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I think I used the phrase 'not too much talent', which does not mean untalented, my thoughts were that if the pro had seen the horse showing any real talent they would probably not have sold to an inexperienced home when it was only just backed, the horse may have enough scope for a serious amateur but most would want to see some evidence before buying at any price which is why I fear, if he seems quiet on viewing, he is just the type a dealer will buy cheap and turn over quickly as a 'safe novice ride' he looks that type and as we all know appearances can be deceptive.
 
be positive said:
I think I used the phrase 'not too much talent', which does not mean untalented, my thoughts were that if the pro had seen the horse showing any real talent they would probably not have sold to an inexperienced home when it was only just backed, the horse may have enough scope for a serious amateur but most would want to see some evidence before buying at any price which is why I fear, if he seems quiet on viewing, he is just the type a dealer will buy cheap and turn over quickly as a 'safe novice ride' he looks that type and as we all know appearances can be deceptive.
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I think it's questionable whether it should have been sold to a novice home just backed at 3 years old talented or not. Even if he was genuinely quiet at 3, he might not have stayed that way as he matured.
 
criso said:
I think it's questionable whether it should have been sold to a novice home just backed at 3 years old talented or not. Even if he was genuinely quiet at 3, he might not have stayed that way as he matured.
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So do I but what is done is done, I am rather cynical about a lot of dealers/ pros and how they sell but would hope they did at least try to suss out the buyer before selling, they may not be a novice home, they did ride it away for some time before giving up, just overhorsed and less experienced than they thought and bigged themselves up when viewing.
I never liked selling very green horses as I found 'interviewing' the potential buyers a real minefield as many give answers that are almost rehearsed and you need to read between the lines as to how competent they really are, the amount of people who call themselves 'eventers' or 'dressage riders' yet are really barely of RC standard is worrying, it makes selling young horses to riders capable of educating them very hard and is why so many horses end up in dealers yards when they become too much for the owner to deal with, the dream of buying a quality horse to bring on can be more of a nightmare for so many people as they really have no idea how much hard work needs to be put in and it gets too much especially over winter.
 
be positive said:
So do I but what is done is done, I am rather cynical about a lot of dealers/ pros and how they sell but would hope they did at least try to suss out the buyer before selling, they may not be a novice home, they did ride it away for some time before giving up, just overhorsed and less experienced than they thought and bigged themselves up when viewing.
I never liked selling very green horses as I found 'interviewing' the potential buyers a real minefield as many give answers that are almost rehearsed and you need to read between the lines as to how competent they really are, the amount of people who call themselves 'eventers' or 'dressage riders' yet are really barely of RC standard is worrying, it makes selling young horses to riders capable of educating them very hard and is why so many horses end up in dealers yards when they become too much for the owner to deal with, the dream of buying a quality horse to bring on can be more of a nightmare for so many people as they really have no idea how much hard work needs to be put in and it gets too much especially over winter.
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I'm the opposite. If anything, I downplay my ability and after two A&E trips during my search I get very nervous trying a horse so must look at least as novicey as I make out, if not more so! Despite this I've had a few dealers trying to push a horse I've not felt comfortable with onto me. Only two have said "you know, you're right, you're not suited to each other." One was definitely not suited and we both knew it. The other, the sellers were lovely and not at all pushy but I probably would have been fine if I'd come back and had a second go on him. I probably needed a push! That day I was even more nervous than usual and didn't even want to canter even though the horse did nothing wrong and was really quite sweet - which really isn't like me - so I ran away. I'm kicking myself about that one a bit and have given myself a good talking to about being brave since then as I know i'll be fine once I get over the "it's a horse I don't know" thing! They were so lovely though, I wouldn't think twice about going back to them if they have another suitable one in.
 
Is it just me or is that horse dark bay not jet black?
I feel it's overpriced, seen one with the same breeding, fit and in work for 6K from a reputable breeder.
Nice horse but does have her moments.
 
stormox said:
How hefty is hefty? A nice young horse like that would cost 3-4k to breed......
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lol, and the rest! Just to get him to 4 and ready to be backed would cost at LEAST that - and that is if there are no 'complications' along the way to add a lot to vet's fees and extra care costs. Depending on service fee and vet costs at conception, a decent bigfoal of that type will have costat LEAST £2,000 when he hits the ground. I've run out of causes that will add at least £1,000 to that: a 2yo wit a dentigerous cyst (tooth in ear) - £1,000; a colt with an undescended testicle (at least £800 - if no complications), and a plethora of other potential problems. But IF you're lucky and keep costs right down, let's say £4,000. And then a professional backing yard: add another £1,000 is the horse is 'easy' and the professional is GOOD! And then the owner's time, effort and advertising costs to find a buyer (out of a number who might not buy.) Horse breeders suffer a loss on most horses they sell!

And then, of course, if a sale goes wrong - and the breeder takes the horse back (having refunded) - first the breeder has to refund, then start again. Of course, a horse that has had a bad experience with his first buyer will remember it when a second buyer comes along.
 
As to price, having looked at the advertand the pics, and knowing the sire line quite well, I think he IS a horse with potential. Nothing wrong with conformation or general appearance - and if he is ok to handle, I might have taken the risk when I was younger. Although I wouldn't pay that much for ANY gelding - I'm a stingy so-and-so! BUT, for a potential buyer who has the cash, IF you get an impression of real honesty from the seller and if the horse shows signs of being 'sensible' to handle AND the horse can pass a 5 stage vetting, he sure wouldn't be the worst buy I've seen (although I'd try to knock £1,000 off.) Because that is the minimum it will cost to get him back to the point where he is worth the original asking price.
 
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