Overtaking on cross country - opinions

[Maclinda]

So had my first run at BE in over three years yesterday and was so pleased with my girl. Rubbish dressage due to rider blondness completely forgetting test, really unlucky clip of the final fence in the 90 and then to the part we both love - the cross country. Had a great run, went clear but were 3 seconds over the optimum time. Now this wouldn't have affected places but was just wondering people's opinion.

The competitor in front of me had issues at fence one and two and then I didn't see her until fence 16 where apparently the commentator did say the chances were that she was going to be passed by me. Four fences to go, she jumped fine but at the last fence her horse mucked about and she held it in front of the fence. I had to pull up as she didn't move out the way and didn't appear to be told to, she then jumped and I carried on to jump the last. Did notice that she had over 46 time penalties.

Really just want other peoples thoughts, at what point should a competitor be told to move aside for an oncoming rider or is it just left up to the competitors discretion?

 

[HannaST]

The fence judges should have told her to get out of your way. Assuming she didn't notice herself. It's definitely your right of way.

To be honest I would have shouted at her myself if no one else had noticed or told her.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Control should have told the fence judges at a previous fence to pull her up. Maybe there was another incident on course so they got distracted?

In any case, she should have pulled over if she knew you were coming up behind.

 

[be positive]

The jump judges should not have allowed her to hold it in front of the fence and taken that moment to tell her to give way to the following rider, it is bad fence judging if they just allowed her to hold you up unless they were genuinely unable to see or hear you, unlikely as the commentators had already made them aware of the situation so they should have been even more careful to get her out of the way quickly. As the rider in front of you turned to represent you should have shouted very clearly that you were coming through and taken the chance to do so as long as it was safe to do so, if it had affected your placing by forcing you to pull up you could have asked for the faults to be removed, the technical delegates will consider the evidence and may do so if you make a good case which you would have been able to in this case.
I do think it is down to the rider following to make themselves heard and be as vocal as required in this type of situation, the rider in front will possibly be so focussed on riding a tricky horse they are not wanting to spend time looking around to check, the fence judges should also be on the ball, if it ever happens again make yourself heard and if possible keep riding forward as you shout.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

XC control usually ask the fence judge to hold the slower competitor. However it sounds like the fence judge should have pulled them over.

 

[mil1212]

I saw the same thing happen at Bold yesterday, and I thought the fence judge should have indicated to the slower competitor to move over, the fence judge was stood right next to the fence too, they over took in the water! As it was the overtaker shouted but I am not sure the other rider heard!

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's nearly a year since I last fence judged at BE, but I remember that we were told by the TD at the briefing that we should only pull up a competitor if we were told to do so by Control. Which is all well and good as long as Control are up to speed with what's happening on the course, and are not distracted.

 

[HannaST]

I have been overtaken twice recently (horsey reluctant to get his toes wet!!) and every time the fence judges have let me know well in advance when another rider is approaching, so that I can get out of their way. It's definitely their job as we riders are often too absorbed in riding. However fence judging can be difficult, if you're new to the game with little training etc, so then it's down to you to shout at the slower rider to make them aware. However it was quite bad manners of the rider in front to let you wait whilst she jumped, presumably she should have noticed you by then.

 

[HannaST]

It's nearly a year since I last fence judged at BE, but I remember that we were told by the TD at the briefing that we should only pull up a competitor if we were told to do so by Control. Which is all well and good as long as Control are up to speed with what's happening on the course, and are not distracted.

Agreed with pulling up, but when a rider is standing still by a jump, I think it's fair for any FJ to ask them to move out of the way, as they're the most updated on the situation at the time.

 

[PorkChop]

The fence judge should most definitely have asked the competitor in front of you to move out of the way - in plenty of time too - I'm actually quite surprised.

 

[be positive]

It's nearly a year since I last fence judged at BE, but I remember that we were told by the TD at the briefing that we should only pull up a competitor if we were told to do so by Control. Which is all well and good as long as Control are up to speed with what's happening on the course, and are not distracted.

In this case the rider was not being pulled up, that is entirely different to asking them to give way, the FJ is in control of what is happening in front of them, a horse being stood in front of a fence for any length of time should be counted as another representation and needs to be dealt with carefully in case the horse tries to jump from a standstill.

 

[Maclinda]

a horse being stood in front of a fence for any length of time should be counted as another representation and needs to be dealt with carefully in case the horse tries to jump from a standstill.

. This actually happened at fence 2 as well (I was watching before I went into start box), horse was really sticky at fence one and at fence two the horse clearly stopped but the rider did not turn away, I then heard the commenter say she had managed to get horse over number two as there had been no indication of a stop from fence judge. When I checked results the rider had only got 25?? Xc jumping faults but loads of time. Next time I'll be much more vocal - was probable just being a bit too polite

 

[Charem]

I had this happen to me at an unaff event a few months back. Rider in front was eliminated but allowed to carry on and I caught up with her three fences from home. I shouted out politely to give way, she begun to and then went ahead and crawled over the fence (a half coffin combination) anyway. My horse obviously saw her horse in front and took off with me to catch up. I was terrified he wasn't going to see the ditch and he hit the second part of the combo hard, had it been any bigger I think we would have been both on the floor.

I'm all up for giving every rider a chance to finish and I have many a time been sat on the horse that has multiple stops but fence judges need to be really hot on getting slower riders out the way if another competitor catches them. Not only can being stuck behind someone else cost you a placing (luckily my experience didn't) but it can be down right dangerous if the rider behind's horse tries to play catch up.

 

[MagicMelon]

To be honest, I would have shouted far enough back that you were going to overtake and she should then have slowed down in between fences to let you go. Although, you'd have to hope she didn't then tailgate you home. Fence judge should have told her to move out of the way for safety.

 

[HannaST]

. This actually happened at fence 2 as well (I was watching before I went into start box), horse was really sticky at fence one and at fence two the horse clearly stopped but the rider did not turn away, I then heard the commenter say she had managed to get horse over number two as there had been no indication of a stop from fence judge. When I checked results the rider had only got 25?? Xc jumping faults but loads of time. Next time I'll be much more vocal - was probable just being a bit too polite

Sounds like two things happened here - dangerous riding (jumping from standstill) and poor fence judging. A bad situation all round!

Edit to say I really do appreciate that FJs are volunteers and I massively appreciate the huge job they do, but when offering to volunteer that does entail certain responsibilities.

 

[Pidgeon]

Best thing to yell is MOVE very loudly. FJ are not allowed to stop horses off their own back, but if a situation occurs where it is necessary and no time to involve control then yes they can. Another thing to bear in mind is that it can be difficult to get the course clear if the horse has planted or has napped. TD can be approached if another rider has impeded you and will review each situation.

 

[popsdosh]

A lot of you are piling a lot of responsibility for this on the fence judge .Things happen very quickly sometimes and things cannot be perfect . First responsibility goes to the following rider to make the one in front aware.You do not go around a CC course looking over your shoulder for riders behind so make them aware.
If it ever happens again go to the TD and they can adjust your time as your time will have been recordrd prior to that fence so its a relatively easy calculation to come up with the time you lost.So the mechanism is there to deal with these situations.
The only thing I will warn is do not go for heroics and jump to close to somebody else as TDs take a very dim view of it on safety grounds and most likely the passing rider will be found at fault.

 

[popsdosh]

Sounds like two things happened here - dangerous riding (jumping from standstill) and poor fence judging. A bad situation all round!

Edit to say I really do appreciate that FJs are volunteers and I massively appreciate the huge job they do, but when offering to volunteer that does entail certain responsibilities.

What a pompous and arrogant attitude!!! I cannot believe you just wrote that .I fence judge a lot and if every rider had your attitude you could get stuffed and find somebody else to fence judge

 

[Maclinda]

Do think riders are definately responsible for what they do on course. As I said in original post it was last fence and the 1.2 penalties I received didn't affect my standing and yes if it had been earlier on course I would have definately made myself known to other rider. Clearly girl did have problems at fence two at the very least, and as previously stated commentator did mention that it did look like she was going to be passed at fence 16 and then I would have definately caught up with her on last fence but I steadied up as I saw she had issues. For those who are fence judges, what is the criteria for moving a competitor out of the way or is it purely up to the following competitor?

 

[popsdosh]

There is no criteria and in theory a fence judge would face a large dilemma if you have somebody with issue you invariably concentrating on them and may not have even spotted the horse behind in time to get them out of the way.You say you heard on the commentary that they thought you were catching up however that does not mean that control had made the fence aware.Like I say the mechanism is there to adjust your time and dare I say it you may even find that it had already been done as there are lots that go on that riders will not know about unless they ask. Do not be reluctant to look out the TD and ask its their responsibility to sort it out.Not really the fence judges.It is very difficult to move a competitor out of the way when they are in the process of jumping a fence and it can come down to split second decisions ,sometimes the unexpected happens.
I am just upset that several posters have condemed the FJ not knowing all the facts about the incident,particularly how long they had to react to the situation which I dont think you had mentioned.
Things happen quite quickly sometimes and you cannot respond ,but in future you need to make your presence known in good time ans raise it with the TD if you feel you were held up on course as it is very likely it will have been noted by the FJs.
As for HST I think they need to do some real fence judging and see if they are so quick to shout their mouth off. Every event I fence judge cost me personally about £200 in lost income and diesel so think on HST.If the volunteers stop doing it you will have no sport.

 

[Orangehorse]

You have to develop a very loud voice to shout "coming through" or the "move" is a good idea. I used to do some FJ at Pony Club, etc. and then went to a BE Training Day - and t put me off so much I never offered again.

 

[*hic*]

I agree with pretty much everything popsdosh has said and would like to make the point that not all riders do what what the FJs tell them and I've certainly been out of the car calling first refusal, second refusal and then "Please stand aside and wait for the next horse to come through" and had to follow it up with "MOVE NOW" in full voice as they have dithered for another 20 seconds and even after that the next rider has had to yell "Coming through" because they're still wimbling about round the jump. Short of dragging these people off their horses there is nothing the FJ can do at that moment.

 

[smja]

I definitely agree about some riders not listening. When my sister and I were fence judging, we had an eliminated rider walk down the middle of a narrow section of the course in front of an oncoming competitor, despite us blowing the whistle and shouting at her to move to the side with both of us out of the car.

 

[sarahann1]

I definitely agree about some riders not listening. When my sister and I were fence judging, we had an eliminated rider walk down the middle of a narrow section of the course in front of an oncoming competitor, despite us blowing the whistle and shouting at her to move to the side with both of us out of the car.

This ^^, yes a fence judge should ask the rider in front to clear the fence if somone is in the way, but getting that someone to listen can be a different story.

I've also been in a situtation where a horse was eliminated and had been radio'd by control to get them off the course, they presented at our fence made a pigs ear of it, all the while we're blowing the whistle telling them to stop, you've been elminated, leave the course etc etc etc, they galloped off up to the next fence, no doubt to ignore the next set of fence judges.

Most riders will listen though, I've been a spectator and stopped a rider on course, who was thankfully very nice/polite, because if she'd kept going she'd have gone to jump a ditch that still had the previous rider lying on the other side of it, and the poor FJ who was on his own without a radio hadn't noticed she was coming, that was at a small charity XC that I've marked down as one never to ride at!

It's worth remembering that FJs are volunteers who may have had very minimal training and may not have ridden XC themselves, but when volunteers are so hard to come by, the comps may often take whoever they can get and put the less experience FJs on the more straightfoward fences.

 

[HannaST]

What a pompous and arrogant attitude!!! I cannot believe you just wrote that .I fence judge a lot and if every rider had your attitude you could get stuffed and find somebody else to fence judge

There is no criteria and in theory a fence judge would face a large dilemma if you have somebody with issue you invariably concentrating on them and may not have even spotted the horse behind in time to get them out of the way.You say you heard on the commentary that they thought you were catching up however that does not mean that control had made the fence aware.Like I say the mechanism is there to adjust your time and dare I say it you may even find that it had already been done as there are lots that go on that riders will not know about unless they ask. Do not be reluctant to look out the TD and ask its their responsibility to sort it out.Not really the fence judges.It is very difficult to move a competitor out of the way when they are in the process of jumping a fence and it can come down to split second decisions ,sometimes the unexpected happens.
I am just upset that several posters have condemed the FJ not knowing all the facts about the incident,particularly how long they had to react to the situation which I dont think you had mentioned.
Things happen quite quickly sometimes and you cannot respond ,but in future you need to make your presence known in good time ans raise it with the TD if you feel you were held up on course as it is very likely it will have been noted by the FJs.
As for HST I think they need to do some real fence judging and see if they are so quick to shout their mouth off. Every event I fence judge cost me personally about £200 in lost income and diesel so think on HST.If the volunteers stop doing it you will have no sport.

I agree with pretty much everything popsdosh has said and would like to make the point that not all riders do what what the FJs tell them and I've certainly been out of the car calling first refusal, second refusal and then "Please stand aside and wait for the next horse to come through" and had to follow it up with "MOVE NOW" in full voice as they have dithered for another 20 seconds and even after that the next rider has had to yell "Coming through" because they're still wimbling about round the jump. Short of dragging these people off their horses there is nothing the FJ can do at that moment.

Phew! Got a bit of an earful there! As said previously, I very much appreciate the work FJs do and I think FJs generally do an amazing job. I have fence judged quite a bit myself and for several years volunteered as a SJ judge, spending many long unpaid hours in cold winter arenas and hot event arenas. I know very well how much time and money it takes and I always acknowledge the FJs. Must say that was a rather aggressive comeback to my post - please don't assume you know me - I'm sorry if I offended so badly!

I was going on the story that was told here, and from the facts offered. Obviously I wasn't there so have no right to anything other than to offer my opinion to help the OP.

In an ideal situation, the situation would have been avoided because 1) control had told FJ what was likely to happen, 2) the FJ was prepared and therefore saw both the rider stopped and faster rider coming, 3) FJ told the rider, 4) slower rider moved. Failing that, the faster rider should have shouted. Any of these things can go wrong, and only one of those would be the FJ's missing something. Therefore, it appears several things went wrong in this situation. If the slow rider didn't listen then that's obviously not the FJ's fault!! However I got the impression that in this case, the FJ did not say anything (I might have been mistaken). Of course the FJ had a lot to focus on, and so they made a mistake, which is fine. Similarly, the slower rider didn't move out of the way, which is against the rules, but she was probably stressed and not looking back, which is understandable. People aren't superhuman and that's fine. I am sure they were trying their best! I'm not blaming these people in that regard, and obviously I wasn't there and have no right whatsoever to judge this case. However - IMO it's a mistake so in an ideal world would have been avoided, as rules clearly state it's the faster rider's right of way? I do agree that the faster rider also has responsibility for making themselves known - loudly! But do we not agree that, ideally, a FJ should let a slower rider know that someone is catching her up? Assuming she has stood still for long enough?

Honestly I do feel it's right to expect something from the FJs, despite them volunteering. I'm not talking about the particular FJ in question here, but generally. Of course it's perfectly OK to make mistakes! But if I volunteer to FJ, I do expect to pay attention to my best ability, not just talk to my friends and miss half the riders? (extreme scenario - again not talking about this specific incident.) Surely we don't think it's okay for FJs to - for example - make up scores, ignore the rules, or ignore messages from control? XC is dangerous and we need everyone to try to follow the rules. That's what I mean when I say that also FJs have some responsibility. I don't expect anyone to be superhuman!

Hope everyone understands that I am debating a topic for its general interest, not blaming any particular persons!

 

[hairycob]

This happened to my son in one of his first hunter trials. The following week he had a pony club lesson with an instructor who has evented at international level. A couple of them had been at the hunter trial & she asked them how it went, when he told her what had happened she gathered the group round & said "if that happens you yell as loudly as you can using all the words you are not usually allowed to use - hopefully your mum or granny won't be near enough to hear". She did also say that sometimes you just have to suck it up & that she had once been held up by a slower horse at 3.

 

[popsdosh]

HST you really should stop digging that hole!!!
The whole of your post talks about FJs making mistakes ,how the hell do you know thats the case you are just making a large assumption! How can you from what the OP wrote assume the FJ had or was not trying to sort things out.
The ultimate responsibility is with the rider and in my opinion never assume the FJ or rider in front knows you are there so maybe your list should have the rider clearly shouting as number one on the list rather than below lots of mistakes others may have made.
When you talk about FJs taking responsibility why do you assume not everybody else has your values.
I personally feel you knew to little about the circumstances with regard this event to assume the FJs were at fault.
It was not a debate about fence judges and their actions but the OP asked what they should have done and indeed do in future.

 

[siennamum]

I was enjoying reading this post till you got so aggressive Popsdosh. The post is asking for opinions, people have opinions which are different to yours.

I think a rider who is having problems on course will be aware that someone is likely to come up behind them, and should be looking over their shoulder. They should be reprimanded if they impede another rider, when they are clearly not in the running. The FJ, should have been aware another rider was coming and had the slower competitor clear the course. The person with least responsibility is the oncoming rider. They obviously should be yelling 'coming through', but it should have been no surprise to anyone at the fence.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have been overtaken twice recently (horsey reluctant to get his toes wet!!) and every time the fence judges have let me know well in advance when another rider is approaching, so that I can get out of their way. It's definitely their job as we riders are often too absorbed in riding. However fence judging can be difficult, if you're new to the game with little training etc, so then it's down to you to shout at the slower rider to make them aware. However it was quite bad manners of the rider in front to let you wait whilst she jumped, presumably she should have noticed you by then.

I don't agree that a rider can't know someone is likely to overtake them ,the rider knows they have had a stop so it's not rocket science to expect to be overtaken as a rider I always made sure the rider in front knew I was coming by yelling coming past and this wakes the fence judges up too.

 

[HannaST]

HST you really should stop digging that hole!!!
The whole of your post talks about FJs making mistakes ,how the hell do you know thats the case you are just making a large assumption! How can you from what the OP wrote assume the FJ had or was not trying to sort things out.
The ultimate responsibility is with the rider and in my opinion never assume the FJ or rider in front knows you are there so maybe your list should have the rider clearly shouting as number one on the list rather than below lots of mistakes others may have made.
When you talk about FJs taking responsibility why do you assume not everybody else has your values.
I personally feel you knew to little about the circumstances with regard this event to assume the FJs were at fault.
It was not a debate about fence judges and their actions but the OP asked what they should have done and indeed do in future.

I quite clearly state in my post that I was not present at the event in question and so cannot know what happened. I can only offer my opinion on what has been written by the OP. Please do not write so aggressively - I can't see how there can be any constructive debate with this tone. Swearing will not help anyone.

I was enjoying reading this post till you got so aggressive Popsdosh. The post is asking for opinions, people have opinions which are different to yours.

I think a rider who is having problems on course will be aware that someone is likely to come up behind them, and should be looking over their shoulder. They should be reprimanded if they impede another rider, when they are clearly not in the running. The FJ, should have been aware another rider was coming and had the slower competitor clear the course. The person with least responsibility is the oncoming rider. They obviously should be yelling 'coming through', but it should have been no surprise to anyone at the fence.

Thank you Siennamum, I agree. I have moved out of the way twice lately and it never occurred to me to do anything else. I would keep an eye on the FJ for information on the upcoming rider as well as looking over my own shoulder. I would have been very embarrassed to impede their ride due to my slowness. If they came close enough to have to shout I would have been very sheepishly apologising afterwards.

I don't agree that a rider can't know someone is likely to overtake them ,the rider knows they have had a stop so it's not rocket science to expect to be overtaken as a rider I always made sure the rider in front knew I was coming by yelling coming past and this wakes the fence judges up too.

In my opinion, everyone present - the FJ, the slower rider, and the faster rider - all had a chance to know what was going on. In this kind of situation, everyone should try their best to make sure the rules are followed, and that the faster rider is allowed through. Slower rider by moving, FJ by informing the slower rider, faster rider by shouting as loud as they can, even the public by shouting out "someone's coming" etc. It doesn't really matter that much who does it. Sometimes no-one realises, and we get situations like the OP's, when the TD can then change the time penalties if appropriate. It's not a hugely big deal, it's impossible to be aware of everything all the time, but can disrupt a good rhythm so it should be avoided.

Coming back to the original question though - in the OP's situation I would have shouted as loud as I could!