Overweight Horses!!

I've got a good doer - part Welsh, looks like a perfect lami candidate - but she has dropped off so much over winter due to the sodden fields that I'm actually trying to put a bit of weight on her at the moment. She's on limited turnout, but has ad lib hay and a small amount of C&C with flaxseed oil, and isn't gaining like I expected. I usually welcome the annual drop-off because I know she will put it back on when the Spring grass comes in, but she's really on the thin side at the moment.

Does anybody know of any studies on the effects of keeping a horse the same weight all year, rather than allowing them to lose in winter and gain in summer? The latter is their natural way of living, so I'd be interested to know if lami is more prevalent in those who aren't allowed to drop off in winter.
 
I don't know about any studies, but I aim to keep ours the same weight year round and have done for many years - they work year round and whilst they are doing so I feed them accordingly, which means considerably less (or nothing) in summer. If they are off work for any reason they get hay or restricted pasture only.

Actually, it has been many years since I fed anything other than hay or pasture to our horses; they get a bit more in the winter if needed.
 
supsup said:
Interestingly, the WHW "right weight" campaign gives different advice, and recommends more time doing active walking and trotting, as this supposedly burns fat better than fast work, which uses up primarily carbs (aerobic vs. anaerobic energy use, is my guess). I wonder how this fits together.
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This is a bit of a misleading statement unfortunately that a lot of humans fall for too. We hop on the treadmill and convince ourselves that 30 mins of slow jogging is better for us than the nutter next to us that keeps sprinting and stopping as we are in the fat burning zone. Yes the 'fat burning' zone burns proportionately more calories from fat than from other energy sources (glycogen), but the total calorie burn is less than for more intensive exercise, so you may be burning less calories from fat by thinking you should stay in the 'fat burning zone'.

As a rough and ready example, if you exercised for 30 mins active walking and jogging you may burn 100 calories. Say 70% of these are from fat, so you burn 70 fat calories and 30 from other energy sources.

If you then did 30 minutes at high intensity interval training, you might burn 50% from fat and 50% from other energy sources, but your total calorie burn may be 200. So you would actually be burning 100 calories from fat vs the 70 calories in the example above.

The maths there is completely wrong in terms of percentage etc but i'm a bit brain damaged to remember the real figures but the principle is right and there to give you an easy to understand example.

So generally for weight loss it is recommended that you do 2-3 high intensity sessions a week with longer slower sessions around that (as it is hard to maintain these high intensity intervals for a prolonged period). Obviously fitness of joints, tendons and ligaments plays a role though, so don't push the intervals too hard if the horse is not fit.
 
Cortez said:
I don't know about any studies, but I aim to keep ours the same weight year round and have done for many years - they work year round and whilst they are doing so I feed them accordingly, which means considerably less (or nothing) in summer. If they are off work for any reason they get hay or restricted pasture only.

Actually, it has been many years since I fed anything other than hay or pasture to our horses; they get a bit more in the winter if needed.
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I also aim to keep mine fairly level all year especially the ones in work, they may be a bit leaner and fitter over the summer but that is through the work they do, most of us are not keeping them "naturally" in any way so I am not sure that dropping too much in winter to allow them to get fat in summer is of much benefit and may well be contributing to the various metabolic issues so many seem to have.

My welsh sec a get very upset and distressed in winter if too restricted and usually comes out of winter fatter than she goes in, over summer she is restricted and will steadily drop with a bit of extra exercise to help, this goes against the "rules" but it works for her, she has never had laminitis yet is exactly the type that needs fairly careful management and in theory should drop over winter.
 
Cant remember where I read it (The Laminitis trust site mentions it) but there is a link between keeping the weight even year round and insulin resistance/ EMS. My guess would be that is because most of those keeping the weight even are keeping it at fat all the year round I would also guess that if you keep your horse lean and fit all year round that wouldnt be the case. I have always tried to keep mine slimmish as I have natives and dread laminitis but I also like them to get lean over winter and early spring so they can eat in late spring and summer as the grass come through. The problem is none of mine are in work so the exercise they get is all on a track system
 
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It is interesting how perceptions change. I’m old school and can recognise an overweight horse and confident I know what a fit horse should look like. My current riding horse that I have known for years before I bought him has always had been at the higher end of a body score. I thought I’d easily sort him out but after failing to get his weight to a healthy one (and breaking him trying to exercise it off him!) I had him tested and he was of the scale EMS though never had lami and you do see a lot fatter than him.
7 months on and we’re slowly getting there but I know we have to ‘get thin’ to reverse the EMS. The fat pads (adipose tissue) that need to go are being very stubborn although obviously a lot smaller now.
The point I’m trying badly to make is that I’m actually getting uncomfortable with how things are going, as although I know it needs to be done for his benefit, I’m sort of starting to miss my chunky nugget. I’m going to have to keep going until we get visible ribs etc and although I won’t let other people’s opinions bother me (much) I’m almost wishing we can get this bit over with!
Definitely feel like I’m being cruel to be kind but aware other people may see it as just being cruel
 
be positive said:
I also aim to keep mine fairly level all year especially the ones in work, they may be a bit leaner and fitter over the summer but that is through the work they do, most of us are not keeping them "naturally" in any way so I am not sure that dropping too much in winter to allow them to get fat in summer is of much benefit and may well be contributing to the various metabolic issues so many seem to have.

My welsh sec a get very upset and distressed in winter if too restricted and usually comes out of winter fatter than she goes in, over summer she is restricted and will steadily drop with a bit of extra exercise to help, this goes against the "rules" but it works for her, she has never had laminitis yet is exactly the type that needs fairly careful management and in theory should drop over winter.
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So glad you said that - I always think I'm missing a trick when people say about using winter for a horse to lose weight, as I've never owned a horse that wouldn't be absolutely murderous in winter if I tried to restrict their food intake. I've never really had a good doer so I suppose my experience doesn't really apply, but I always try to keep their weight constant, although mine tend to be running a bit leaner by August time, as summer means more exercise for those in work and more natural inclination for them to bomb about in the field
 
Cortez said:
It is generally fast work that gets horses lean. Endless plodding (as recommended traditionally) doesn't do enough unless it is on hills or over rough terrain. And horses should sweat and puff a little too.

What passes for "work" nowadays is usually just a little meander for half an hour....
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It’s interesting what passes as work. According to feed bags, most horses would be in light work and very few that I know of would be in medium or heavy work. Yet I suspect people would think my boy does a fair amount as sometimes he is out twice a day, but it’s actually a pretty light workload overall by those feed co standards.
 
http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/177/7/173

I think the amount of carbohydrate and the animals susceptibility to insulin resistance is just as important as the amount of extra weight they are carrying, the extra weight just adds to the problem. A bit like humans with diabetes its not just the amount of food but the type eaten that is important. Forage made which is low in sugar/carbohydrate is going to have a low GI response, a bowl of cereal based feed coated with molasses will increase the blood sugar quickly but will not provide the fibre for the gut to break down and provide warmth.
No one is suggesting starving them to lose weight but replacing the food with low carb fibre.

I find it depressing that most of the research done on this subject seem to be sponsored by feed manufacturers which have a vested interest in selling grain and grain by products in fancy bags at a huge profit. A high fibre feed is mostly chopped pelleted processed straw, its almost the same as the straw pellets used for bedding.
http://www.proteinfeeds.co.uk/index...tionally-improved-straw?showall=1&limitstart=
 
I like mine to come into the spring thinner for a number of reasons:

It mimics what happens in nature, which their genetics are designed for.

It means that I don't need to worry about their weight and restrict grazing until much later in the spring/summer.

Studies in humans are showing that even yoyo dieting is protective against diabetes.

I do it by feeding ad lib, but low food value, forage, like timothy instead of ryegrass. And by stopping the forage as soon as the grass is giving them a full belly, even though it doesn't have enough calories in it to keep their weight up.

I have two unworked minis on that regime with easily felt ribs, which at this time of year I'm very happy about.
 
DabDab said:
So glad you said that - I always think I'm missing a trick when people say about using winter for a horse to lose weight, as I've never owned a horse that wouldn't be absolutely murderous in winter if I tried to restrict their food intake. I've never really had a good doer so I suppose my experience doesn't really apply, but I always try to keep their weight constant, although mine tend to be running a bit leaner by August time, as summer means more exercise for those in work and more natural inclination for them to bomb about in the field
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I like mine to drop over the winter but I dont do it by restriction-I do it by not feeding, rugging or allowing them 24/7 access to round bales of hay/haylege but I had two ponies on 7 acres of unimproved pasture thats 1400ft up :D even given the extended snow cover we had still the ******* didnt lose as much as I would like. I do feed hay all year round because it's a protective factor agaisnt grass sickness and helps I think when we have big storms but when they are out 24/7 its literally a small slice each daily over the winter.
 
I'm like you MoC , just a bit lower. I think the 'unimproved' has a lot to do with it, though my neighbours would call it 'totally neglected :D

Whenever people ask about how to top fields, I am tempted to say 'don't!'.
 
ycbm said:
I'm like you MoC , just a bit lower. I think the 'unimproved' has a lot to do with it, though my neighbours would call it 'totally neglected :D

Whenever people ask about how to top fields, I am tempted to say 'don't!'.
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lol-I am lucky to have it as am in cattle country. but farmer has that bit that he just sticks a few cattle and sheep on in the summer and another 5 acre meadow that you can't get machines on-I use that in the summer. They go onto that in about august through to december when it gets too wet and they have plenty of variety in plants and terrain (I think many would balk at turning out horses on it, it has large bluffs and steep banks and some ruins). They do put weight on there but they're much easier to manage than when I had them on 'better' grazing in a different part of the country. when I see rugged natives scoffing round bales all day in tiny paddocks I do wonder why people are surprised when their ponies are fat-they need movement.
 
Our grass is unimproved in that it is old ley, certainly not had any fertiliser in it for my lifetime so 30+ years and probably beyond that, never topped, it gets a harrow and roll if it's lucky and most of it a hay cut once a year.
We have sooo much friggin grass in comparison to other land types though.
 
I feel like I've just sat down at a meeting of AA. "My name is SEL and I have a fat horse" :(

Was looking fine (I'm not convinced she has ribs, so skinny is out) in January, then tied up 8 weeks ago and even in a small paddock with minimal grass currently looks like she could be carrying twins. Her crest is getting solid too. Muzzle going back on after today's rain.

Can't de-rug due to muscles and have cut back on hard feed as much as possible so she still gets her vitamin E down her. Hay is soaked.

Apart from a couple of days where she was definitely lame, she has been in low level ground work (30mins walk x 2 day) and the vet and I are now in agreement that we drug to get her working before we end up in a much worse situation.

I envy people who can kick their horse out in a field for a week and have no problems!
 
I have a 15.1 cob (20) and a 16.2 ISH with a bit of cob in him (9). Both are good doers and we are on very good grazing. Out 24/7 but come in when needed.

I gave them a month off over Christmas while I was in Australia and came back and they were both too fat. Usually they are very fit with a lot of work.

Straight away they went on to half oat straw/half hay, and not much of it. Came in off the grass in the day and were exercised big style. We are at the foot of the South Downs so my older one, who was most worrying, went up for walk/trot hacks on the Downs every other day. The other one did a little less. But once they had a month worth of walk/trot work, then upped the work to include fast work on the Downs, jumping, lunging and schooling.

After 2 months they got back to normal. My old one had put on so much weight that he had to go back to his FAT saddle. I was mortified. When I got him 9 years ago he was 150 kgs overweight and I had always kept him lean since then with hunting and endurance etc.

They are good weight now but they do get worked a lot generally. We are very lucky on the Downs as it really works them even if you are only out for a few hours.

But on my yard there are some horses that are just so fat. Just get fed and no exercise. It is sad.
 
See this all the time, and is a hot topic on our yard.

I am getting so many great comments about how well my competition horse looks, and then when I tell them that he is on minimal food they don't believe it!

My mare, who is Welsh D x TB is on the plumper side, so she is currently out without a rug (and has been for a few months now) despite being clipped to keep the weight off! She now is also looking good, though in my eyes still a tad "soft" in condition haha.

Some people just don't seem to have a clue. I think I may have upset a fellow livery the other day after I told her I didn't want her to put haylage (more like silage!) out in our field for our 3 horses as I certainly didn't want my mare on it, and she shouldn't be giving it to her Laminitis prone pony. Her reply was that he doesn't get laminitis, just fat. I reminded her how he was on box rest for weeks last summer after he was boarderline, so I would class that as laminetic! But the reply that "he just gets fat" was so contradictory anyway it was unreal.
 
TBH I have stopped talking about it at our yard as they don't want to hear about it.

When I put mine on half oat straw, I mentioned it to someone with a fat horse who has back and leg problems and is rarely exercised. I had said that mine weren't that impressed with it but they could eat it or not, that was what they were getting. She said, I would rather mine is fat and happy so he will keep getting as much hay as he wants. OK then! Can't argue with that really.
 
JJS said:
The Welsh groups are the absolute worst for this, and yet most people in the Traditional groups I'm a member of are really waking up to the problem, so hopefully the former will soon follow suit.
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I wouldn't be so sure - the highland groups are terrifying. "The vet said he's fat"... "Oh no he's fabulous, spot on, highlands are meant to be like that"... :rolleyes3:

I have complete sympathy with anyone who recognises an overweight horse and is trying to control it - god knows it's hard, especially if you don't control grazing management, and they can't be worked due to injury.
It's the people who refuse to accept there is an issue, or even consider than the vet (/other professional) may actually have a point who get me.
 
It is interesting because for the most part (obviously the odd exception) the highlands I saw out last year looked pretty good. But for sure there is too much 'vets are used to looking at thoroughbreds'...
 
ester said:
It is interesting because for the most part (obviously the odd exception) the highlands I saw out last year looked pretty good. But for sure there is too much 'vets are used to looking at thoroughbreds'...
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I don't follow showing, so I can't really comment - though I do see photos of some very fat ponies, and others of some very fit ones. But the ones on facebook are terrifying - often happy hacker-types in highland-heavy regions of Scotland where the "they're meant to look like that" mentality reigns.
 
BethanT said:
WOW! How stunning is s/he?! Beautiful coat, and definitely not thin, but fit!
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Thank you! I couldn’t believe it, to me he’s pretty perfect in terms of weight but people’s perception of what a horse should look like is just so off. Apparently because he’s a Connemara he should look like a chunk... news to me!
 
Goldenstar said:
Well you probably would not do well showing him but I think he looks fantastic
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Me too - & I remember your photos when you got him off the lorry. Looks like a different horse!

If anyone wants weight on their skinny horse I'd like to offer up an appaloosa for liposuction. She has plenty to share.
 
I have just moved my warmbloods (16.2hh and 17hh) to mostly living out on a 10 acre field of really good grass on hill, with 5 others. It is horse and pony grass seed, so not too high octane, was used for hay / sheep and not had horses on in 15 years.

I am bringing them in a bit, and working them fairly hard, and hoping they don’t balloon. Generally I work and travel them enough I can manage their weight.

One’s about right, and one’s a bit light. Both need muscle. I have given up feeding them as wont eat feed with salt / magnesium / minerals in it, and clearly don’t really need calories.

Muzzling or bringing in will be there as a fall back, but I am hoping not to need it!
 
Michen said:
Got told my fit, healthy horse was too thin “for a native” the other day ��

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He's so yummy :o
I think that's a problem with a lot of the lighter, sportier connemara and Welsh lines, in that people think native, therefore stocky, when they're just not built like that. And allowing more weight to pile on them will not make it so.
 
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