owner/loaner rights

[EdithSparrow]

Iv had my mare out on loan for about 2 months now havent seen or checked up its an offical loan with all the documents signed i have for the past few days been talking to the loaner about coming up to check shes okay and have a short ride (half an hour or so) she has been all fine with it but unfortunately couldnt do the times i could so said for me to ask the yard owner who would probably meet me so i asked if she was free on a certen day and if she would let me into the tack room she left me on read that i thought was a bit odd but i assumed she might of been busy. tonight i come back with a message saying hes okay with me coming to see if shes okay but not riding? she thinks im just going to come and expect her to drop every thing for example a lesson or hack planned and let me ride that is not the case id of course work around them shes aying becasue its an offcial loan she dosent want me to ride but no where in that loan does it say thats an issue. i get where shes coming from but i live over 150 miles away usually and only in town once every 5 months or so so im really not gonna just expect a ride every week or anything like that iv even offered to pay to use the gallops there and id just walk her around it i just. What are my rights here can i go and see and have a small ride on my mare or can she stop me? iv double checked and no where in the loan does it say i cant or that shes the only one to ride her

 

[JennBags]

If your horse is out on full loan then I wouldn't think you'd have the right to ride, I'm surprised you think you do.

 

[ihatework]

Unless having access to ride was discussed and agreed as part of the loan upfront then it isn’t usually expected in a full loan. Access to check the horse obviously is.

 

[Red-1]

If I had a horse on loan I would not expect the owner to come and ride. However, the owner would have had frequent updates and video etc.

I would have thought visits would also have been pre-agreed.

Of course, if the horse is yours, then you do have the right to ride. However, the loaner also has the right to decide she does not want a part of such an arrangement and return the horse, if she feels you are being too invasive.


It is all about the horse to me. Have you had recent videos? Was the rider well equal to your horse? Do you suspect the horse has become defensive when ridden?


Maybe you could arrange to visit when the loanee was going to ride, so you could see if they are getting on alright? If the horse looks happy with her riding I can't see why you would need to ride.

 

[Theocat]

Unless you agreed that you'd ride in advance, it will be both unexpected and unwelcome.

I certainly don't think that the YO should be expected to hang around and oversee you riding - they are clearly very happy with checks and it isn't their fault you pass through so rarely, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to accommodate you.

If I were a loaner and the owner wanted to appear after two months of no visits and take the horse to the gallops, I wouldn't be happy!

Do the check, and forget riding, or you could damage the relationship with what sounds like a decent loaner.

 

[MissTyc]

The person "responsible" for the horse gets to choose who rides it, imo.

I never rode my mare when she was off on loan & when I have loaned a horse myself I have reacted with extreme aggression at the suggestion that the owner's daughter should be allowed to sit on it. It's either on loan or it isn't.

 

[Tiddlypom]

She's been out on loan for 2 months and you haven't visited her at all in that time?

The riding thing is purely between you and the loaner, it's unusual in a loan but it does happen. I wouldn't mind if it was me, but if the loaner is unhappy about you riding but you insist on it anyway, then she may return the horse, so be prepared for that.

However, whatever you decide, I suggest that you arrange to visit more frequently, as even what appear to be the best loans can go pear shaped.

 

[HashRouge]

She's still your horse, I really don't see why you shouldn't be able to ride her if you want to. I'm also surprised people think it is a problem. I rode my mare in both her loan homes. If the loaners had said I couldn't, I would have assumed there was something wrong (sore back, sudden behavioural issues...I'm paranoid!) and taken her back straight away. It's not like I was knocking on the door every few weeks asking for a ride, we're talking once in four months or so.

 

[Gloi]

To be honest I feel totally different about this. If my horse was on loan and they refused to let me ride it occasionally I would be suspicious about its welfare and be wanting it home. I'd like to know for myself how its behaviour and schooling was towards when it went away.

 

[honetpot]

To be honest I feel totally different about this. If my horse was on loan and they refused to let me ride it occasionally I would be suspicious about its welfare and be wanting it home. I'd like to know for myself how its behaviour and schooling was towards when it went away.

I have loaned out quite a lot, and the animal never belongs to the loaner and the owner retains full rights, and this is stipulated in the contract. If its local I do drive bys and check them in the field, if I was refused admission to a yard at a reasonable time or for a planned visit I would be back with a lorry to take the animal away.
As we have never wanted to ride something we have loaned out, I have never asked to ride, but you should have a good enough relationship with the loaner that you should be able to do it as long as its not interfering with their loan, but if you want to do it regularly it should be in the contract.
If it was mine I would book a time to ride saying you want full access to your horse, tack and equipment and say they must inform the yard owner that you will be visiting. If they do not arrange this terminate the loan and visit with a lorry.
I have only ever had one problem with a loaner and I questioned how the pony was shod, when they got really stroppy with me. I had also told them the pony was too fat, it turned out it had the start of laminitis and I thought I would not notice. It came home and went on a diet.

 

[Goldenstar]

J is on loan and I would not dream of expecting to be able to ride him .

 

[conniegirl]

I currently have a pony on loan and it is specifically stated in the contract that I need to give the owner or her nominated representative full access (including riding) for checks at a mutually convenient time.

however on a normal loan if it were not specified in the contract about riding then I would not expect the owner to ride the horse. I'd normally be open to them coming and doing so anyway but it would need to be at a time convenient to me as my yard owner requires me to be present if anyone else is riding the horse and all visitors to the yard have to be escorted everywhere.

 

[Scarlett]

I've had horses go out on loan, both on my existing yard and moving away to another yard. I didn't ride either when on loan and I wouldn't have expected to just say 'I want to ride'. If I had been visiting and I was offered a sit I would maybe have taken it but I wouldn't have assumed. To me it's respectful to the loaners who I trusted, were taking excellent care of my horses and who were paying all of the costs relating to the horse. In that situation they get a say in who rides, I do think they would have offered though, if it had come up.

 

[SilverFilly]

This shocks me. I bought my horse back in October and even now he is totally my responsibility, i love his old owner coming down for a visit and to ride just because he truly was the love of her life and she was forced to sell so I love showing her how well he's doing and how far hes come under saddle. I'm shocked people are so uptight about the horse being ridden once every few months by someone who still owns the animal...

EDIT: I am totally in support of backing off and putting ground rules in place if the owner is overbearing or interfering with any time that the loaner has to ride in the week. But its really not a major inconvenience and my horses old owner has always been more than understanding when I've said no because we have plans.

 

[9tails]

OP, you could really do with some punctuation in your post.

I think the question is, why do you want to ride?

 

[teddypops]

I think you should just go and check on your horse on this occasion, then arrange your next visit well in advance so you can both be there and you get to ride. The loaner sounds like she is trying to be accommodating and has organised for you to meet the yard owner as she can’t be there when you can. If it’s the yard owner not wanting you to ride rather than the loaner then that’s not really a cause for suspicion.
However, when I loaned my horse out I wouldn’t have expected to ride him and when I had one on loan, the owner didn’t expect to ride her.

 

[zaminda]

My old boy went out on loan regularly and I often rode him while they were on holiday to keep him going for a couple of homes. I wouldn't have expected it, and if you can't tell how a horse is going by watchi8ng, then you don't know it very well.
I had a horse on loan from a woman who couldn't do a thing with the horse. There is no way I would have let her ride it, letting her lead or touch it was bad enough, as she was incompetent, although as is often the case, thought that she wasn't the problem.
How far in advance did you arrange this visit? If it is last minute, then drop in and see the horse, think carefully about what you want from the arrangement, and go from there.
Be aware, if you get funny, they may hand it straight back, especially if riding wasn't discussed in the contract, I would have told the owner of the above horse to bring transport if she had insisted on riding. I wasn't a schooling service, nor am I in the habit of funding horses for someone else to come and ride when they feel like it.

 

[Sophire]

I wouldn't expect to ride a horse I had put on loan, nor do I think I would be happy to allow it if I did have a horse on loan, especially if I wasn't there and it was going to put people out.

 

[honetpot]

I assume that as this post is in competing and training its a relatively high value horse, then in that case I would definitely want to ride it when I went to see it if I was only able to visit every couple of months.
I used to loan out schoolmasters, that came with a full set of instructions, tack and I paid routine vet bills. Out of all the loans only one person followed all the instructions included in the loan agreement, I would see most out with changes of tack and equipment, but as the animal was not likely to come to any harm I would let it slide. When they came home sometimes they would have to have two weeks boot camp.
Even when I have sent animals away for breaking and I am paying and expressed what I would like doing as part of its basic training, which is mainly just hacking out, its not been done.
A horse can be spoiled in just a couple of months, I have seen the most genuine horses spoiled by nagging hands, and repetition, becoming nappy to the point of rearing. There is also the friend or instructor who decides it needs a gadget, a smack or even a good hiding, when really it just doesn't have a way out so has started to misbehave in protest.
When you loan you place a lot of trust in people and unfortunately some however much they say how well they look after their animals, they don't. Then when it goes wrong the owner is landed with the bill and the heartache, probably when they can least do it the additional work.
My advice for loaning is never loan anything out that you can not take back with little notice, take anything anyone tells you with a pinch of salt, and if its high value or a young horse I would want to be checking it on a regular basis. A walk down the horse box lines at events can be most revealing on how people really treat their animals.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I have my boy on permanent loan and can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen his owner in the nearly 2 years I've had him. That said, I send regular updates (often weekly) with pictures and try to keep her informed on what he's up to and how we're getting on as I know she loves seeing how our partnership has grown. She's never asked, but I'd have no issue with her having a sit on him if she wanted as at the end of the day she's still his owner.

 

[HashRouge]

I had a horse on loan from a woman who couldn't do a thing with the horse. There is no way I would have let her ride it, letting her lead or touch it was bad enough, as she was incompetent, although as is often the case, thought that she wasn't the problem.

But since she owned the horse, I don't see why you would think it was your right to refuse to "let" her ride if she had wanted to. Short of threatening to end the loan if she did, what were your options? I mean, the horse belonged to her.

I'm genuinely astonished that so many of you think it's completely unreasonable for the owner of a horse to have a quick ride on it in its loan home. I can understand the YO perhaps saying no if the loaner wasn't around, but can't understand why a loaner would say no.

 

[CJoe]

If my loan horse hadnt of been subsequently bought by me, I still wouldnt have let the owner ride it at the time if it was going to remain with me. I had sorted out a multitude of issues and one ride would have been all it took to send things backwards.....fortunately, the owner at the time was fully aware they were not a good match and sold him to me.

Its a really hard one as now, horse is fully sorted, I would have no issue with old owner coming and hacking or whatever, but at the beginning I was putting in a lot of time, sweat and pain to turn said horse around!

 

[splashgirl45]

i have a horse on loan and keep the owner updated with pics etc and she knows that i am happy for her to come to the yard anytime to check on her whether i am there or not. my YO knows this as well....,,. as far as i am concerned the horse is on loan to me and i would find it odd if the owner wanted to ride. of course i would accomodate her but would think it was strange. however i would not allow anyone else to ride her without permission from the owner as i am fully aware she is not my horse......

 

[paddi22]

But since she owned the horse, I don't see why you would think it was your right to refuse to "let" her ride if she had wanted to. Short of threatening to end the loan if she did, what were your options? I mean, the horse belonged to her.

I'm genuinely astonished that so many of you think it's completely unreasonable for the owner of a horse to have a quick ride on it in its loan home. I can understand the YO perhaps saying no if the loaner wasn't around, but can't understand why a loaner would say no.

If the horse is loaned out, then it's usually loaned out under a certain understanding between the owner and the loaner. I've never seen horses that are loaned out be ridden by the owner, unless its agreed at the start or specifically invited by the loanee.

There could be a ton of reasons the loanee might be wary of it, in her position I would think:
- is she gonna be asking all the time now, why didn't she say it at the start of loan in the contract?
- I have the horse on a training schedule and it doesn't suit to have someone come up to ride. If its on a competition schedule then t might be the horses day off or you might be working on something and not want another rider confusing it with the old way it was ridden.
- What does she even mean by 'ride it'? is it a hack., schooling it, jumping it? Is she gonna judge my schooling and end the loan?
- Im not there and my yard owner doesnt want strangers wantering into the tack room
- my yard owner doesnt want strangers riding without watching them, and shes up to her eyes at the moment
- the yard might be locked during day and reuire a key for entry, so yard owner would need to be there for the whole time the owner is there
- i wouldn't want the owner doing a 'oh she went much better in x bit etc' to me.
- if the loanee is busy they mightnt want to spend their time chatting to the old owner and wasting a day

There are a ton of reasons. If i was a loaner id be a bit pissed. A good loan works because the owner picks a suitable loanee and then trusts them to take care of the horse, maybe checking up everynow and then tactfully.

 

[ihatework]

But since she owned the horse, I don't see why you would think it was your right to refuse to "let" her ride if she had wanted to. Short of threatening to end the loan if she did, what were your options? I mean, the horse belonged to her.

I'm genuinely astonished that so many of you think it's completely unreasonable for the owner of a horse to have a quick ride on it in its loan home. I can understand the YO perhaps saying no if the loaner wasn't around, but can't understand why a loaner would say no.

It’s all very dependant on specific circumstances though.
I’ve loaned horses as an owner and as a borrower - the ones where I was the borrower I would always offer the owner a ride - but under my terms. I wouldn’t have been best pleased with I will be there on X date and expect to take it to the gallops / jump it / whatever especially if I was covering all financial costs.

However, if you were involved in loaning an expensive horse, it might be prudent to agree up front any riding criteria.

There is also the circumstances when the owner is a horrific rider, the loaner might have significantly improved the horse and not want it ruined by the owner getting back on

OP - in your shoes at this stage I’d arrange to visit ASAP (2 months is too long for a new loan IMO), then go back at a mutually convenient time to watch loaner ride if that is your concern. Then try and have a friendly conversation about you riding, but if they are a good home I wouldn’t push too hard or else you might find the horse coming back!

 

[Surbie]

I have a horse on loan and I keep his owner regularly updated with pictures and videos. She knows she is welcome to visit whenever she would like to. While I doubt she would want to ride him, he's her horse and I wouldn't quibble if she wanted to. She is going to see me ride him when she visits.

You say you live 150 miles away, are around 2-3 times a year so it's hardly the case that you will be popping aboard regularly. Even if it's in a competition home, the horse is yours not the loaner's. If they take it badly that you want to ride, are you ready to take it back?

For me, what might make it tricky if I am not there is access to the tack room, which is locked at all times and my horse's owner has no key. If she were in your situation, it might well be that access being an issue, as your loaner won't be there.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I wouldn’t expect to ride a horse I’d loaned out. If I were a loaner and the owner wanted to ride it really would depend on our agreement and relationship. If the owner got funny about it I’d say if you want to ride the horse take it away and pay for it because I’m not paying to keep a horse for the owner to ride.

 

[Theocat]

I think Surbie is right about the access. The loaner was happy for you to ride at first: it is the YO who is absolutely rightly unhappy with an unknown person a) having access to the tack room, b) riding on their land or using their facilities, and c) understandably unwilling to babysit the entire visit.

I think if you want to be requesting a ride, you need to be more flexible - it is not reasonable to have only one date when you happen to be passing through, and expect others to fit around you.

If I were a YO there's no way in hell I'd let a complete stranger have the keys to my tack room and galivant around my facilities, even if it is your own horse! The loaner need to be there for those reasons alone.

 

[ester]

I'm genuinely a bit confused by the OP, you messaged the yard owner and she left you on read and then the loaner said no to riding? Or the yard owner sadin no?

 

[MagicMelon]

I think Surbie is right about the access. The loaner was happy for you to ride at first: it is the YO who is absolutely rightly unhappy with an unknown person a) having access to the tack room, b) riding on their land or using their facilities, and c) understandably unwilling to babysit the entire visit.

I think if you want to be requesting a ride, you need to be more flexible - it is not reasonable to have only one date when you happen to be passing through, and expect others to fit around you.

If I were a YO there's no way in hell I'd let a complete stranger have the keys to my tack room and galivant around my facilities, even if it is your own horse! The loaner need to be there for those reasons alone.

This.