Owner now says she won't sell the horse I have on loan with view to buy!?

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chotty

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Okay, so I've had a very up and down past few months with my lwvtb horse. I thought he was too much for my non existent confidence and had basically made up my mind that I wanted something simpler. However, I didn't want to return him the owner as she has a seriously bad reputation for her basic lack of care for her horses (when I first got mine he was very underweight, had rainscald and mud fever up to his hocks, so I spent the first 3 months or so fattening him up and treated his legs/back).

I've known this woman for a few years, and first starting speaking to her again last summer. Horses looked okay in the summer, and the ones that didn't she told me were 'rescues that's she's working with'. Later found out these 'rescues' had been with her a number of years, so no excuse for their state. However, in winter, the vast majority of the horses (there are around 30 of them) went drastically down hill. They all lost weight, had rainscald, really bad mud fever, horrific rug rubs, infected eyes etc. sspca were called and she was told she had to get rid of most of them and was only allowed to keep 12. Council also closed down her 'riding school'.

By this point I was sort of 'sharing/loaning' one of her horses, so she asked me if I could buy him from her as she was also being kicked off the livery she was at for not being able to pay her livery/for the haylege being put into the fields. I told her that I couldn't afford to buy him at the moment as was still at uni, but agreed to take him on loan with view to buy.

Fast forward 5 months and he's now looking amazing, and i now feel like I've got a firm bond with him. Have even started riding him again! She has messaged me a number of times, even up til a month ago saying 'remember if you want to buy him the answer's yes as I know you love him' blah blah blah. I told her I didn't have the money yet as was just finishing uni and sorting out work.

Now however, my circumstances have changed and I can now buy him outright. Messaged her yesterday saying I would like to buy him and she turned round and said 'he's not for sale hun'. Eh WHAT!? She's messaged me saying stuff like 'hope you understand as he's my baby'. She didn't give a crap about him before I took him on and got him looking amazing!

Where do I stand? We didn't have anything in writing as she was a 'friend' but definitely had a verbal agreement, plus have proof within messages of this. She's still got more than 12 horses, and has told the sspca that they're 'on loan' and that they're 'liveries' on her yard. Including going so far as to make a charity group of people with learning difficulties sign a loan agreement so it looked like they were loaning one of her horses, which in reality, they aren't.

Can I somehow bill her for the money I've spent on the horse while I've had him on loan with view to buy seeing as how she pulled out of the agreement? Even though there was nothing in writing?

Really don't want my little pony going back to her! I wouldn't trust her with a hamster never mind him!

Sorry it's long, but needed the rant as well as the advice! Cheese toasties for all ;) x
 
Just text her back and tell her you'll be returning the horse this weekend. She'll soon change her mind.
 
You have been keeping the horse and getting it up to scratch for her, so she has saved a lot of money! However, you cant make her sell I wouldnt think, a verbal agreement isnt like having something in writing. As AM says you could call her bluff
 
Be a bitch and tell her, "fine, I'll send him back tomorrow, once you have the written concent of the SSPCA'".

And if she comes for him, phone them.


Two can play at that game and she sounds as mad a a box of frogs tbh.
 
Tell her that, in light of the fact that she has so many times told you that you can buy him and has now abruptly changed her mind, you have sadly come to the conclusion that she merely wanted a good home for him over the expensive winter season ... so you will be sending her a livery bill for the last five months to include everything you've spent on him, including your time.

And when she pays you, she can have her horse back. :mad:
 
Mrs B said:
Tell her that, in light of the fact that she has so many times told you that you can buy him and has now abruptly changed her mind, you have sadly come to the conclusion that she merely wanted a good home for him over the expensive winter season ... so you will be sending her a livery bill for the last five months to include everything you've spent on him, including your time.

And when she pays you, she can have her horse back. :mad:
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^^^ Here here. Big long itemised bill including absolutely everything. :p
 
Just keep him on loan - forever if needs be. She can't really come and take him can she? Treat him as your own and she will change her mind - I would think it is possibly a ploy to up the price? And for anyone else - you really must get an agreement at the outset agreeing the sale price if and when, so you get the benefit of the investment (time and money and emotion) you put in. OP did you agree a price? If so, you have a verbal contract? Any reliable (ideally independant) witnesses? If so, you have the evidence
 
Mrs B said:
Tell her that, in light of the fact that she has so many times told you that you can buy him and has now abruptly changed her mind, you have sadly come to the conclusion that she merely wanted a good home for him over the expensive winter season ... so you will be sending her a livery bill for the last five months to include everything you've spent on him, including your time.

And when she pays you, she can have her horse back. :mad:
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It's a good idea in theory, but if she calls your bluff and has him back you have no contract with her to enforce the debt. And she has got him back. Your hand is very much stronger if you keep him - assuming you want to.
 
I've met someone just like this. Your in Scotland so I doubt if it's the same person. But good luck.
 
JillA said:
It's a good idea in theory, but if she calls your bluff and has him back you have no contract with her to enforce the debt. And she has got him back. Your hand is very much stronger if you keep him - assuming you want to.
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Unless she moves him somewhere 'out of reach' until the debt is paid or she reconsiders ...;) Seriously: a difficult one though, OP and I hope you manage to work something out.
 
Mrs B said:
Tell her that, in light of the fact that she has so many times told you that you can buy him and has now abruptly changed her mind, you have sadly come to the conclusion that she merely wanted a good home for him over the expensive winter season ... so you will be sending her a livery bill for the last five months to include everything you've spent on him, including your time.

And when she pays you, she can have her horse back. :mad:
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I'd try this TBH. Although I dont really know if you could legally do this... in your text messages it obviously says she was on loan to you in which case you'd normally be expected to pay for the horses keep. But dont think she HAS to sell to you at the end of it even though she's said so. Such a difficult one!
 
Just keep him on loan for the time being. Wait till the depths of winter and then put in your offer again to purchase him. And if she says no again then just keep him on loan for as long as she allows. There's nothing much you can do apart from that and you can't send bills to her as you have had 5 months of enjoyment out of the horse and unfortunately that is the way loans go. I think she'd laugh you out town and take the horse back and then you'd be snookered! Bide your time.
 
She entered in to a contract to sell. You still have the messages she sent you. All you have to do is to get a receipt of sale and pay her. End of.
 
I would keep him on loan for now and then 1 week before xmas offer to buy him again. If she declines I would then say 'ok thats fine but I will be dropping the horse back today'.

She clearly has never wanted him back before now, so she certainly is going to want to have him dumped back with her a week before xmas!! That is what I would do, play her at her own silly games!
 
Mrs B said:
Tell her that, in light of the fact that she has so many times told you that you can buy him and has now abruptly changed her mind, you have sadly come to the conclusion that she merely wanted a good home for him over the expensive winter season ... so you will be sending her a livery bill for the last five months to include everything you've spent on him, including your time.

And when she pays you, she can have her horse back. :mad:
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Brilliant suggestion !!!!!
 
If you have the text messages she has sent you I would go the MrsB route text her saying we have a verbal contract in place for LWAVTB you have broken that contract my costs are whatever please pick up your horse and bring me the cash.
Call her bluff.
 
Having been in a similar situation once, I think you need to think carefully about this. For me I had the ponies on what turned into a very long loan, and ended up with them being sold to me for a very cheap (although some said they should have been given to me) price in the end.

To cut a long story short, the loan period ended up as being 5 years!!!! in a stalemate situation where I couldn't contact the owners for ages and when I did they made false promises. I love those boyz so much though I couldn't let them go back to the state they were in when I found them after having put so much work in to get them right. It all came to a head when I had to move yards in a hurry owing to severe flooding. The owner got on to me calling me all sorts because I'd not let them know the ponies were moving and raised merry hell. So I just said, right you can let me have them outright or I'll drop them off in your driveway in the morning. Next thing I know her husband is on the phone apologising for her behaviour and fixing up a time to swap cash for ownership!! Big sighs all round because I didn't want to do what I'd threatened to do, but neither was I going to sit around and have my family bad mouthed and abused.

I hope you have a happy ending to your tale as I did - just extending that loan you have until the winter really could work in your favour. Best of luck.
 
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get concrete advice from the CAB so you can be 100% sure of your ground. Ask the CAB if text messages confirming this is a LVWTB would constitute a legal agreement. It will cost you nothing. Alternatively, check yours or your parents house insurance to see if you have legal cover included, in which case, call that and get advice there. If there is a legal contract in place then would suggest a formal letter confirming this, confirming you are paying X amount at x date. I am trying to think about the SCPCA angle as well. If she has them involved in looking at her and keeping an eye on the number of horses, I think I would also be inclined to put a call into them. Appreciate they would not give out information over the phone to Jo Public but a conversation may not go amiss.

Also, and I appreciate I am speaking from an english law perspective, but in seeing how hard it is for owners to PROVE legal ownership I would be inclined to stand my ground. The police (in england) would not wish to be involved as this would then be deemed a civil matter - one persons word against anothers.

But definitely, check the legalities before any more conversations
 
In addition to all the advice above, are you a BHS member? Try phoning them up for legal advice - it's oneof the membership benefits so worth a go.

Also, if the SSPCA were invovled and she was banned from keeping more than a certian number of horses, perhaps its worth calling them and asking for their advice about returning the horse?

Good luck
 
Hi everyone,

Thank you all so so so much for all your very helpful advice! You have all made me feel better that I'm doing the right thing and definitely stronger in fighting my corner!

I have just come off the phone to CAB, they have advised me to send her a recorded delivery letter stating that she has went back on our verbal contract (apparently most contracts are only verbal and as I have witnesses and correspondence with her saying she would sell him to me it would stand legally) and staying her 2 options. She either sell him to me for x amount due to what he was worth when I bought him due to the state he was in and the fact he's never been vaccinated/microchipped/no tack so I still have to pay for that or she reimburses me for the money I have spent on him so far as she has failed to stick to our contract. Woman at CAB also advised I mention the sspca and state that I will be taking it further with them as I know she is not allowed to have him back as she has more horses than she's allowed. I have also to say that if she does not settle this between us then I will be sending her correspondence from my lawyer.

Pretty chuffed with that! I totally understand everyone saying to keep him on loan til winter and corner her into selling him, and trust me if CAB had said I had no legal standing I would have, but I really don't want to have to deal with her any longer than I have to. So sick of her commenting on all the beautiful pictures of him that I put up on Facebook saying sickly stuff like 'aw my baby, give him kisses from mummy' etc as she tries to pretty much take the credit for him looking and acting so much better than he did with her!

Ahh I sound like a child but I love that little horse and will do anything to stop him going back to her!

X
 
Also, if anyone would like to send me a draft letter of what I should say in the letter then that would be very much appreciated! Never had to do something like this before and want it to stick!

X
 
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