owner refusing flexion test ??

[Patterdale]

I'm afraid that every post you make shows that you are neither an experienced rider, (confident on a RS horse suitable for someone with 8 months riding experience does not make a good, nor anywhere near good rider), nor ready to own your own horse. You obviously don't want to hear that, so I shall say no more. Neither will I say 'I told you so', when it all goes wrong.

Who made you the Horse Owning Police!?

MrsJenks, you'll soon realise that there's a lot of this self-righteous preaching on HHO :rolleyes3:
If you are going to a livery yard where you'll have support, you're getting experienced help to find the horse, doing your homework and planning to continue lessons after you get a horse, there's no reason why you won't be absolutely fine.

Some people can ride brilliantly after 8 weeks, some are still hopeless after 8 years. No one on a forum who has never met you can possibly judge your skill level (they'll still try though).
Get as much help as you can, never stop asking for advice and get yourself on a nice supportive yard, and you'll be doing better than a lot of first time owners.

 

[maccachic]

Why do you need to be an experienced rider to own a horse? Provide you have a good support network and a safe horse and some common sense.

Not sure what trotters are like over your guys side of the world but they are more than suitable over here for a learner MOST have good laid back unflappable temperments.

 

[Leo Walker]

thanks for that Frankie, its good to know what the prices are in our area and a heads up on the livery, part of the appeal is the fact its 2 miles from home and we have the Cleveland hills to use.

im looking for that sort of price range, 15.3 to 16.3 horse suitable for a 'novice', to be used for hacking and schoolwork. no tb's but wouldn't mind tb x. preferably 10 to 15yo. does this horse exist ??

You absolutely cant hack out in the hills sadly. My sister was there for a long time and the only time she hacked out properly was when I rolled up and insisted it wasn't that bad and we went hacking. We made it to the hills, but only after going down that road. After nearly 5yrs I can still remember thinking I was going to die! Cars flying up behind me at 60mph who couldn't have seen me and suddenly understanding why NO ONE else ever did it Its not a bad yard, but most of the people there hack round the gallops and use the school in the winter. I have friends who are happily still there.

The yard you want to go to can be pretty judgmental about people even if your not a novice! I'm an instructor and they were fairly rude to me, until someone else pointed out I made my living teaching, at which point they were much nicer I wouldnt recommend it to anyone as a first time owner who wants access to the hills!

I can recommend no amount of people who have smart sane cobs for sale, mainly as since I fractured my spine, thats what I want to ride, but I dont actually know anyone selling the sort of horse your looking for in a dealer sense. Are you on Facebook? The local horsey groups have horses coming up daily that sound like they would suit

 

[siennamum]

at that age & with some mileage, many horses would fail and it wouldn't necessarily be a cause for concern. The key is to know what you are dealing with. Horse could fail the vetting and you might still want to buy it. You'd be affected should you decide to insure, but it does sound like owner knows the horse has an issue and that might explain why she has no shoes etc.
You could tell the owner that you will accept the horse might fail and just see how lame vet thinks it is & what the implications are.
TBH though someone who would knowingly sell a lame older horse cheaply in a slightly underhand way is unlikely to be some one you would trust.

 

[xloopylozzax]

What happened to Archie?

 

[EstherYoung]

I think there's a difference between an owner who says 'I don't agree with flexions but you're welcome to do anything else you like to check soundness' and an owner who says 'I don't agree with flexions because there's no point as the horse is only cheap'.

Nb If you're wanting the Cleveland Hills to ride over there are loads of yards if you head a bit further into the hills. No point in having the hills tantalisingly close if you can't get to them. I think in your position I'd be tempted to approach one of the trekking centres to see if they've got a horse for loan over the winter. It would get you some more experience of both horsecare and hill riding, and some more connections in the horse world, and then you can look properly for one of your own in the spring.

 

[hnmisty]

I think in your position I'd be tempted to approach one of the trekking centres to see if they've got a horse for loan over the winter. It would get you some more experience of both horsecare and hill riding, and some more connections in the horse world, and then you can look properly for one of your own in the spring.

This is a wise suggestion. Loans are an excellent way of building up to the rigours of owning and all the work that entails. Plus you don't have the commitment of having bought. I think that maybe at 8 months, you will buy something you are happy on now...and you might well find that by February, a consistent amount of lessons will have brought your riding on loads and you will have advanced beyond its ability.

I for one can't blame you for being eager to get your own horse, but there's no point rushing in guns blazing (I know you are not rushing as much as some I know). Plus winter is not going to be fun! I'd see if you can find a loan and then look again in spring. There isn't much fun to horse owning in the winter!

 

[Mrsjenks]

I'm afraid that every post you make shows that you are neither an experienced rider, (confident on a RS horse suitable for someone with 8 months riding experience does not make a good, nor anywhere near good rider), nor ready to own your own horse. You obviously don't want to hear that, so I shall say no more. Neither will I say 'I told you so', when it all goes wrong.

oh, im sorry, I thought I was on the 'new riders and owners' section. maybe you never read the sticky at the head of this section, here have another read " If you are an existing forum member who is kind enough to offer advice to any newcomer, please remember that everyone had to start somewhere and the individuals posting on this board are keen to expand their knowledge". this thread is about an owner refusing a flexion test, and thank you to everyone who commented regarding the actual question its much appreciated ! however I am appauled and angered that you feel through some powers of what I can only assume is telepathy that you know who I am,or what my riding capabilities are ! what is most annoying is the fact that you have come to the conclusion that I am not ready to own my own horse, how dare you ! please do not take me for a silly little girl, I am an educated 30 year old married woman with two children. every day I drive past horses that are tied up at the side of the road, who said the people who own that could have a horse ?! my horse will be kept in a livery yard for a start, you do not know me, do not assume I would not be able to look after a horse just because I have come on here to ask peoples opinions and for advice, how stupid of me to assume I wouldn't bump into some self opinionated elitist know it all. please if you cannot give helpful advice instead of railroading and insulting me, then please refrain from adding your two pennies worth on any of my future threads. p.s I wont be listening for your 'I told you so' as there will be no need for one.

 

[Coldfeet!]

Why do you need to be an experienced rider to own a horse? Provide you have a good support network and a safe horse and some common sense.

Not sure what trotters are like over your guys side of the world but they are more than suitable over here for a learner MOST have good laid back unflappable temperments.

I bought my first horse 25 years ago, never ridden a horse other than on "pony rides" but volunteered at a local charity and gained vaulable care experience. I was in my teens I bought a tb with a tendon problem off the track for peanuts after I self taught on a part loan for a couple of months and had her til her dying day 13 years later. Never been to a riding school. Follow your vets advice if in doubt Mrs Jenks. I was so desperate to own my own horse and a little young and crazy!

 

[Mrsjenks]

thanks, we called and told her no thanks to the horse we saw yesterday. total shame about archie, the vetting turned up some things that would have not made him suitable to buy. back to the drawing board it is ! draft horses - ish, and tb x seem to be the ones that are catching my eye all the time. I know somewhere out there is a lovely horse just waiting for me, and ill find it im sure

 

[Goldenstar]

The right horse is out there waiting ,you just need to find him.

 

[xloopylozzax]

what is your budget, and how far are you willing to travel?

We all love a bit of fantasy horse shopping

 

[Echo Bravo]

And I think you MrsJenks have been very rude back to Pearlsinger, so climb off your high horse.

 

[maccachic]

And I think you MrsJenks have been very rude back to Pearlsinger, so climb off your high horse.

Are you suggesting she gets something smaller a pony perhaps? ;P

 

[Mrsjenks]

And I think you MrsJenks have been very rude back to Pearlsinger, so climb off your high horse.

I havnt got one yet pmsl

 

[Orangehorse]

There have been cases where horses have been damaged by poor Flexion tests, but I think vets are more aware of this now and take more care! Some vets seem to hold the leg up for ages, others for not very long, it is interesting to see the difference, but nerve wracking for the owner. I think it is quite a severe test.

As everything, the results are open to interpretation. Nearly all older horses would take a couple of poor strides afterwards, but you wouldn't something that was obviously hopping lame.

However, my 15 year old passed flexion tests last year, although as I pointed out to my vet, he has hardly had a hard day's work in his life!

 

[katastrophykat]

Hi- I'm up near Durham, is that too far for you to travel? If not, I can pop a post up on my local sites if you like? Pm me if you want

 

[JLD]

also just a quick aside - my horse passed flexion tests for insurance purposes a year before he was put down due to severe arthritis of both hocks that didnt respond to any treatment, and in restrospect was exhibiting behaviours at the time he passed to suggest he was already experiencing some pain. but more with the thread - I looked at 20 horses before I found mine, keep looking your perfect horse is out there and I would agree that with the right horse, support of a livery yard and a good instructor you will likely be fine, we all need to start somewhere and everyone has a first horse sometime - I didnt get mine till i was 32 and was just a 'riding school rider' till then albeit for many years.

 

[keepitugly]

Can you PM me who it was? I think I might know.

Drop me a message and I can help you look, I know where definitely not to go, there's a few unscrupulous types selling things in your budget I'm worried you'll be drawn in by. Would you consider something younger or a smaller cob type?

Message me I'm happy to help you and even come view with you if you like.

 

[Pale Rider]

I don't let vets do flexion tests, full stop. If it's an issue go elsewhere.

 

[cptrayes]

There have been cases where horses have been damaged by poor Flexion tests

I put up a thread a couple of weeks back asking for examples of this and no one could give me one. I think it's apocryphal, and the horses that have been permanently or long term lamed by them had an undiagnosed issue just waiting to be found.

 

[cptrayes]

Pale Rider,

Why don't you let vets do them? I'd not only allow a vet to do them, I do them myself. They can be very useful to confirm those 'gut feeling that the horse is not quite right' moments or to reassure that all is well with a resolved issue. For example, before I put him back into hard work after his spine operation, I will be flexing my horses hind leg that was kicked and left with a lump on the hock last year, to make sure that it is not going arthritic. That will help me not to confuse hock pain with back pain if his rehab does not continue as smoothly as it has started.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't let vets do flexion tests, full stop. If it's an issue go elsewhere.

Got a lot of lame horses PR ?

 

[Goldenstar]

I put up a thread a couple of weeks back asking for examples of this and no one could give me one. I think it's apocryphal, and the horses that have been permanently or long term lamed by them had an undiagnosed issue just waiting to be found.

I agree with you on this if you watch want a horses joints do in hard work it would be I think it about impossible for a human to permanently lame a SOUND horse by doing a flexion test .
I flex test my own too it's a valuable way to watch for changes and I lunge on a Tarmac slope in trot on a ten metre circle .

 

[AdorableAlice]

Got a lot of lame horses PR ?

Fictional horses more like.

 

[Pale Rider]

Finding someone who can do a consistent flexion test would be an achievement. Unreliable at best, potentially damaging at worse. Originally developed as a dope test. Just because someone is buying a horse doesn't give them a right to dictate what tests they want done, against the sellers wishes, as a buyer if you're not happy, go else where. No-one is forced to buy a horse, or sell it if they are not happy with the seller, buyer or vet.

 

[Booboos]

I've been reading this thread with interest. I have never had a problem with a vet performing a flexion test and diagnostically they have been very useful to pin-point a problem. I have also never had a vet refuse to do one on the grounds that it would cause harm.

Finding someone who can do a consistent flexion test would be an achievement. Unreliable at best, potentially damaging at worse. Originally developed as a dope test. Just because someone is buying a horse doesn't give them a right to dictate what tests they want done, against the sellers wishes, as a buyer if you're not happy, go else where. No-one is forced to buy a horse, or sell it if they are not happy with the seller, buyer or vet.

What do you mean by 'consistent flexion test'? In what respect should two flexion tests be consistent and why does consistency in this respect matter?

Do you have any evidence for the unreliability claim? Do flexion tests create false negatives or false positives? Do they create the same number of false negatives/positives on different parts of the leg and the same for fore and hind limbs?

Ditto with the damaging claim please.

 

[Goldenstar]

The vet canot do a vetting without flexions what they do inlaid down and they must vet within the guidelines .
Yes I agree if you don't want flexions done you have the right to say that up front before the potential buyer sees the horse but to leave it until after viewing would make you the worse type of time wasting seller.
Not allowing flexions may be ok is you are selling cheap low end types but if you require insurance for say competition type with a price tag to match and you want insurance you will need that vet certificate .
I require a horse to stay sound through a flexion before I embark on expending a huge amount of money and time and work on it.
As long as you state in your advertisement no flexions allowed I have no issues with it buyers can then make whatever inference they chose from that and save themselves the cost of the phone call.

 

[siennamum]

I had (unfortunately) one of my geldings flexion tested this week and last week, and my mare had a routine flexion last week. She is 20 and I want my vet to know what is normal for her and be able to spot any changes. I specifically asked him to come out & do a workup including flexion tests, he gave me an informed view about whether she has any issues in her hocks.

He has pinpointed via a flexion where we believe my gelding has an issue (fetlock) medicated it and is treating it based on the outcome of his flexion (& other symptoms)

Maybe having a good vet show you what they are achieving with a flexion test will put your mind at rest Palerider.

 

[Pale Rider]

To be honest, it's never been an issue with anyone. My attitude is that people can do what they want with their own horses, but not with mine. That's it.