Owner terminating Loan Do I have any rights?

Having re-read everything you've said, do you think that maybe you have taken offense at her deciding to move the horse? So much so that you have missed the point of it all maybe?

The owner proposed a plan to move the horse to a riding school thereby relieving you of any cash output for the horse's livery charges. She's asked you to be half owner of the horse. She sounds happy, no, more than that; she values you being a big part of this horses life.

I'm sorry but I don't see this woman as being the nasty sod that some people are trying to make out she is :confused:. You've had her horse for 10 months to do with as you please; presumably you've had a great time with the mare? You and she agreed a nominal price 3 months ago and yet you haven't paid for the mare yet. Nothing wrong with that, if you don't have the money you don't have the money, however try taking this from a different view point; maybe she realises you don't have the money? Maybe that is why she is trying to help you keep contact with the horse for free? To be honest, to me, she sounds like a perfectly reasonable human being, with a kind heart and with only one side of the story here, I feel she is maybe being given the rough end of the stick here.
 
siobhain said:
Thankyou, against the majority here who in my heart of hearts I think I know are right im still going to talk to a solicitor and depending on what they say write her a bill. I feel like I have to at least try.
>
After the owner left today she even sent me a text telling me she doesnt want to lose me and the work Ive done with the horse. Bloody cheek! x
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Keep that text - and anything else you have in writing - and write a detailed chronicle of 'events' and costs.

A friend of mine was in a similar situation - she took on a ratbag mare - owner didn't want it and it was unsaleable. A couple of years on, owner turned around and said she wanted to sell mare. Friend said: 'She's mine, you effectively gave her to me, I've spent a lot of time and money on her - so if you DO want her back, it'll cost you £xx!" She hung onto the mare, obviously! Owner took her to Court (Small Claims) for return of horse - or money and my friend won! The Judge's view was that the time and money spent on the mare effectively constituted the purchase of it! (My friend had nothing in writing!)

Obviously that's one case - and much would rely on the individual judge and the way both sides presented their case - but I wouldn't think your case is hopeless at all!
 
Booboos said:
Sounds like a horrible situation to be in, I am really sorry for you!

I think you are probably better off talking to a lawyer as it's not straight-forward. As far as I know verbal contracts are legally binding in the UK, but proving what was agreed and making the owner stick to it may be both very difficult and very costly.

Hope you find a solution that allows you to keep the mare.
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This. If you had your agreement in writing you would stand a chance but proving a verbal contract will be your word against hers, not helped by the uncertainty over when you were actually going to pay. That said you have put a lot of work in so dont see any harm in seeing if a lawyer's letter etc helps you get what you want.
 
cptrayes said:
A contract is a contract whether written or verbal. If she made a verbal agreement to sell you the horse for £500 then you have a right to buy the horse for £500. The law is on your side.

If you have any witnesses to the contract made, emails etc then you can take a claim against her in the small claims court (cheap and easy) for the reschooling work that you have put into this horse with no reward.

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I shouldn't have thought so - after all, it was a LWVTB - not an actual sale. The OP isn't obliged to buy the horse so I doubt the owner is obliged to sell her.

I also don't think you'd have any chance of getting money for your schooling time. This was never agreed on, and you had the free use of the horse for the time, which is what a loan is. I've helped school a number of horses over the years but I'd never expect payment for it or a cut of the sale money unless that had been discussed and agreed up front.

I'm sorry you've had this happen, OP - its very sad. But ultimately the mare belongs to the owner to do what she wants with - you've had her on loan for a long time with the opportunity to buy - which, when you could see how much better she was getting, you should have taken the opportunity to do many months ago. A hard lesson learned I'm afraid :(
 
As others have said I don't think you can do much. You should have payed for the mare over the months you had her even having to save you had plenty of time.

appeal to the owner, tell her how much you love the horse and how much time and effort you have put in.

I hope you get it sorted.
 
If you have your agreement in writing you may have some legal come back, i'd imagine.

Obviously the simplest thing for you is to just put the £500 in front of her and ask her one last time to sell you the horse. If she says no - walk away.

Clearly if you can afford a solicitor - you can afford the price of the horse.
 
i would stick to your guns and insist you are able to keep the horse and buy it asap a verble contract is a contract get some peopel to back up what you say is the agreed terms of the loan and get the yo to back you up and dont let her take it ,certainley not without paying the livery you have paid and for the work done .if she takes you to court i think she would lose and if she won she would just get the horse back ,by the way who has the passport for the horse .
 
Spring Feather said:
Having re-read everything you've said, do you think that maybe you have taken offense at her deciding to move the horse? So much so that you have missed the point of it all maybe?

The owner proposed a plan to move the horse to a riding school thereby relieving you of any cash output for the horse's livery charges. She's asked you to be half owner of the horse. She sounds happy, no, more than that; she values you being a big part of this horses life.

I'm sorry but I don't see this woman as being the nasty sod that some people are trying to make out she is :confused:. You've had her horse for 10 months to do with as you please; presumably you've had a great time with the mare? You and she agreed a nominal price 3 months ago and yet you haven't paid for the mare yet. Nothing wrong with that, if you don't have the money you don't have the money, however try taking this from a different view point; maybe she realises you don't have the money? Maybe that is why she is trying to help you keep contact with the horse for free? To be honest, to me, she sounds like a perfectly reasonable human being, with a kind heart and with only one side of the story here, I feel she is maybe being given the rough end of the stick here.
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I agree with this.

To the OP, I understand how you feel as my horse is on long term/permanent loan to me but if her owner ever decided to have her back, I would be upset as all the work I put into her with, custom saddles, etc. If her owner gave me the same option that you have been given about the horse being moved somewhere else and about still being involved for free, I would be happy with that too.

Maybe just sit down, have a think about your options and write a pros and cons list before doing anything rash and seeing a solicitor, etc?
 
before seeking the advice from a solicitor you have to be sure of what you really want.

if you get the solicitor to write to the owner stating your fees then that will (obviously) put the owners back up and you will lose all contact with the horse and possibly not get the money from her for keeping the horse all this time.

if you want to keep in contact with the horse and still have a possible opportunity to buy it then go with the share of the horse. don't send a letter out.

like i said you have to be clear in your own mind what you want.
 
I haven't read all the replies, but I would urge you to call the BHS legal helpline for advice. Its free if you are a gold member.

If she is playing dirty, is there anything in the contract to state you can't claim the £££ for re-schooling the horse? If you desperately want to keep her and don't mind falling out with the owner, might be worth a shot at presenting her with a bill for all your hours of work and or expenses.

I personally wonder if your best option is to accept the half ownership, get it in writing, and sit on your hands while things fall apart at the riding school and with her owner. They'll probably be giving her back to you in no time.

xxx
 
If I have read this correctly, your contract, verbal or otherwise, terminated on 31st December. You have already had over a month's extension on this and you STILL haven't found the £500 which you agreed to pay the owner. TBH I'm not really surprised that she has decided to make alternative arrangements and think that you should consider yourself fortunate that she is offering to let you stay in touch.
I often wonder why people think that they should be able to use other people's horses without paying for the privilege.
 
xspiralx said:
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I'm sorry you've had this happen, OP - its very sad. But ultimately the mare belongs to the owner to do what she wants with - you've had her on loan for a long time with the opportunity to buy - which, when you could see how much better she was getting, you should have taken the opportunity to do many months ago. A hard lesson learned I'm afraid :(
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I agree......especially when a couple of hundered was discussed at the begining to get her sold quick, she was worth taking a risk for that amount and i'd have paid there and then.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
If I have read this correctly, your contract, verbal or otherwise, terminated on 31st December. You have already had over a month's extension on this and you STILL haven't found the £500 which you agreed to pay the owner. TBH I'm not really surprised that she has decided to make alternative arrangements and think that you should consider yourself fortunate that she is offering to let you stay in touch.
I often wonder why people think that they should be able to use other people's horses without paying for the privilege.
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Sorry agree with this I'm afraid. You have had plenty off time to pay for the mare and tbh I would have gave the money at the start when she really wanted her gone. Iv seen this happen all to often.

The owner is NOT the bad guy here
 
I would agree that the owner isn't being entirely unreasonable. She wants you to carry on being involved. I think that getting in touch with a solicitor will only sour what sounds like (on her part anyway) a fairly positive relationship. I would either stick it out and wait for it to go wrong (I'm sure from what you say it will) or maybe write her a letter (as a friend, appealing to her better nature, it sounds from her texts like she has one) explaining how you feel, how much work and time you've put into her and that you really don't think the new arrangement would suit the mare or her owner. I think trying to sort it out amicably will be far better than antagonising her.

Could you offer to help her find something more suitable for her?

You could maybe point out that £500 might not be enough for her to buy another horse, but she would be in the same position had she sold her to you a month ago as per your agreement so it kind of makes her argument a bit irrelevant.

Good luck
 
Maesfen said:
Totally agree with this, sorry if it offends you.
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Not at all, I asked for opinions and I wanted to hear what people thought be it in my favour or not. I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond.

I have taken everything on board, I have had some very helpful advice both in replies and PMs for which i am so grateful.

I agree with all of you who have said I should have just bought her. In hindsight this should have been done immediately when her owner had no other option. It would appear I have been massively stupid and in being so trusting and have paid the price for it.

I just have to say and I will probably get hell for it, for those who say she is not the bad guy and even allowing for my bias you couldn’t be more wrong. What I have said on here is a very simplified version of events. The offering me a share (which it wouldent even really be) is not the kind gesture it would appear. Its a guilty person's attempt to make the deceit and massive screwing over seem less bad.

Anyway I tried to reason with her today and was told she would now want £4k to sell the horse to me as she now wants it to ride herself, I asked if she could explain why the horse is worth more now than it was in June and she declined to reply.

It all just makes me so sad. With the risk of sounding like a fluffy bunny my issue here is that Ive been left heart broken and Im losing my best friend and it feels a bit like my whole world just ended. But the lesson has well a truely be learned, whatever the outcome of my case against her ( she has agreed in writing she should pay for the schooling I have done, but I dont think she realises how much it costs) I will never touch another horse that isnt fully owned by me again
 
siobhain said:
Not at all, I asked for opinions and I wanted to hear what people thought be it in my favour or not. I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond.

I have taken everything on board, I have had some very helpful advice both in replies and PMs for which i am so grateful.

I agree with all of you who have said I should have just bought her. In hindsight this should have been done immediately when her owner had no other option. It would appear I have been massively stupid and in being so trusting and have paid the price for it.

I just have to say and I will probably get hell for it, for those who say she is not the bad guy and even allowing for my bias you couldn’t be more wrong. What I have said on here is a very simplified version of events. The offering me a share (which it wouldent even really be) is not the kind gesture it would appear. Its a guilty person's attempt to make the deceit and massive screwing over seem less bad.

Anyway I tried to reason with her today and was told she would now want £4k to sell the horse to me as she now wants it to ride herself, I asked if she could explain why the horse is worth more now than it was in June and she declined to reply.

It all just makes me so sad. With the risk of sounding like a fluffy bunny my issue here is that Ive been left heart broken and Im losing my best friend and it feels a bit like my whole world just ended. But the lesson has well a truely be learned, whatever the outcome of my case against her ( she has agreed in writing she should pay for the schooling I have done, but I dont think she realises how much it costs) I will never touch another horse that isnt fully owned by me again
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I can see both sides of the argument here, and I appreciate why you in particular feel so let down. A steep learning curve for you I suspect, and the reason why I would only ever loan an older established horse that was going to teach me, rather than me giving someone free schooling livery on a youngster.

In your situation, I would smile and grit your teeth. try and keep the relationship with the owner. Give her the horse back, wait for it to go t*ts up and then offer her the £500 if you still wish to own the horse.
 
not alot of horses are worth £4000 with out something to help sell them so think she could be in cloud cuckooland but if she is keeping it to ride herself then that is up to her.
Put it down to experience buy your own then no one is going to take it away from you.
 
you took something that was worth NOTHING and the owner wanted rid, you have spent 7 months schooling and bringing this horse back into condition, the very least you are owed is the weekly rate for the training say 100 pounds per week, plus other costs, so she owes you, you have made vast improvements in this horse and its value is now out all recognition to when you took it on,
don't let people walk all over you.
 
tristar said:
you took something that was worth NOTHING and the owner wanted rid, you have spent 7 months schooling and bringing this horse back into condition, the very least you are owed is the weekly rate for the training say 100 pounds per week, plus other costs, so she owes you, you have made vast improvements in this horse and its value is now out all recognition to when you took it on,
don't let people walk all over you.
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Hang on a minute, I read that the OP loaned the horse on a loan agreement from May last year and it ended in December. A loan agreement is NOT forced upon someone. Both were willing parties. There is NO way the OP should be paid for schooling/training livery. She accepted the way things were and was quite happy to have access to the horse without having to pay out any money to buy it.

OP, no disrespect to you at all but we only have your side of the story to go on and I'm an avid "there are always two sides to the story" person. I feel very sorry for you in all honesty; it is an upsetting thing to have happened BUT as you know, much of it was due to your own making sadly to say.

I am musing about how each of us would react to this situation if we were the owners of a horse that had been out on loan for 10 months with an offer to sell the horse for lower than meatmoney which has been on the table for months now. Would we all just sit back and wait? I don't think so. I know exactly what I would have done, I'd said to the OP does she want to buy now or not, if not then I'd have taken the horse back. Yes the owner got her horse schooled but the OP who loaned the horse obviously reaped the benefits too during this time frame. If she hadn't then she wouldn't be so upset about not being able to buy the horse now.
 
Wow difficult situation for you. I really feel for you.

There is nothing really I can say that someone else hasn't said. It sounds like things are not going in your favour at the moment.

My common sense says to give the horse back (Although I am not sure I would do it if I were in your situation but I can only really say that because I am not in your situation!)...Maybe you could somehow come to a agreement that if the owner decides to sell the horse you have first dibs? Though obviously a contract with her is worth nothing but could still give it a go? You could have a third party value the horse? If it's unlikely to pass the vet test then I doubt she can get £4000 for it. - fortunately I have no experience with this so what am saying may be a load of rubbish.

Something tells me that the owner won't have her for long but it is whether you end up with the horse or someone else...I hope it all works out for you in the end.
 
I would give her the horse back, and see what happens when she's had her for a bit. Im sorry but i dont think there is much else you can do. If your as good as you sound to be in bring horses on etc i would have a look at some of the horses being sold at the minute, you could pick up a horse for under £1000 it'll need work but itll be worth the pay off! Good luck x
 
Spring Feather said:
Hang on a minute, I read that the OP loaned the horse on a loan agreement from May last year and it ended in December. A loan agreement is NOT forced upon someone. Both were willing parties. There is NO way the OP should be paid for schooling/training livery. She accepted the way things were and was quite happy to have access to the horse without having to pay out any money to buy it.

OP, no disrespect to you at all but we only have your side of the story to go on and I'm an avid "there are always two sides to the story" person. I feel very sorry for you in all honesty; it is an upsetting thing to have happened BUT as you know, much of it was due to your own making sadly to say.

I am musing about how each of us would react to this situation if we were the owners of a horse that had been out on loan for 10 months with an offer to sell the horse for lower than meatmoney which has been on the table for months now. Would we all just sit back and wait? I don't think so. I know exactly what I would have done, I'd said to the OP does she want to buy now or not, if not then I'd have taken the horse back. Yes the owner got her horse schooled but the OP who loaned the horse obviously reaped the benefits too during this time frame. If she hadn't then she wouldn't be so upset about not being able to buy the horse now.
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I agree with this entirely, how can the OP charge for schooling when she agreed to take the horse on loan? That's madness.
I do really feel for the OP i've been in a similar situation but managed to sort it in the end (even though i paid over what the horse was worth).
But it's a hard lesson learned i'm afraid.
 
Naturally said:
If she is playing dirty, is there anything in the contract to state you can't claim the £££ for re-schooling the horse? If you desperately want to keep her and don't mind falling out with the owner, might be worth a shot at presenting her with a bill for all your hours of work and or expenses.
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If you're loaning a horse on a normal loan contract I don't think you have the right to suddenly charge for 're-schooling'. After all, you knew what the horse was like when you look it on and accepted that at the time.

Put it this way, if I'd loaned out a horse for an agreed period and the loaner suddenly tried to charge me for things I hadn't agreed to as part of the loan agreement, at the end of the loan, I'd go ballistic. You took the horse on loan. You did not take it on schooling-livery, did you? You cannot suddenly charge for something you think you're owed. Cripes... we'd all be at it if it were that easy. You loaned someone elses horse for an agreed period and agreed to pay for its keep and care during that period. Full stop. If you only kept the horse on, on the basis of definitely buying it for £500 at some point, you needed to have gotten that in writing and also renewed your loan contract before 31st Dec 2010 or at least PURCHASED the horse BEFORE the agreement ended.

And unless the LWVTB was written into your signed loan contract, I think the owner can change her mind. Especially as the loan contract has now expired. LWVTB works both ways. Sometimes the loaner wont want to buy the horse and sometimes the owner wont want to sell the horse with a LWVTB agreement. It's a 'view to' buy agreement: not an absolutely agreement to sell otherwise it would be a 'trial period contract' and not a LWVTB contract.

I think your options are: to offer to buy the horse for an increased amount, let the owner take it and keep in touch, or simply move on and learn from the experience. I.e. Never take anybody at their word without getting it written on stone.
 
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so sorry for you. Its a tough learning curve I know, been there! owner did exactly the same thing. After that I swore never to loan again. Unfortunately it is quite common
 
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