Ownership legalities - Long story needs a conclusion

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Sandylou

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My friend has cared for and financed a horse that is not hers, according to the passport, for the past 9 years (approx.)

The pony came to our yard with a man that had 'won' her from a friend. This man didn't have a clue about horses and after a few months stopped visiting the yard full stop but was contactable through the yard owner. The pony was taken on by a couple of teenage girls with the owners permission but they grew and lost interest in looking after someone else's horse and wanted their own ponies. That's when my friend took her on (again with the owners permission) and this pony is her absolute everything.

As said before, she has had the mare for over 9 years now - paid for her keep, fed her, insured her, kept her warm and healthy and paid for vets bills whenever needed.
Understandably she would like to become the legal owner mostly because she doesn't want there to be the slightest chance of anyone taking her beloved mare away. She doesn't have the passport though, the 'owner' does. She is going to ask the owner if he has the passport on the grounds of restarting the mares vaccinations and if he has it then she can start talking about taking over ownership.


My friend was a teenage girl at the time with no clue of legal issues and so there is no contract in place.

What is required for my fiend to become the legal owner?
If the owner doesn't want the owner details changed in the passport and insists on staying as the legal owner, does my friend have any legal rights considering the length of time she's cared for the horse?

Any help and advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks x
 
Sandylou said:
If the owner doesn't want the owner details changed in the passport and insists on staying as the legal owner, does my friend have any legal rights considering the length of time she's cared for the horse?

Any help and advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks x
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Morally, yes he does belong to her, but legally no.

Worth calling the BHS legal line for a view on it, is the short answer x
 
sounds to me as if she has the horse on full loan so in the absense of any other information she would have no legal rights to the horse. if she wants to be the legal owner she would need to buy the horse from the owner for anythng from a pound to full market price depending on what the owner wants for it and obviously the owner may not want to sell at all
 
Yes I've told her that I think she needs to buy the horse or get a letter from the owner to say that he has 'gifted' the horse to her. I just didn't know whether, in the absence of a contract, there were any rights to the 'carer' considering she has kept the horse as her own for so long.
 
Worth finding out the type of person the owner is before she goes any further.

Hopefully they will be a reasonable person and just give her the horse for £1 since they obviously don't want it but I'm just thinking of the can of worms that this could open.

How old is the horse now, presumably not a youngster given the back story.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Worth finding out the type of person the owner is before she goes any further.

Hopefully they will be a reasonable person and just give her the horse for £1 since they obviously don't want it but I'm just thinking of the can of worms that this could open.

How old is the horse now, presumably not a youngster given the back story.
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Yes my friend is really stressed about opening a can of worms with this.

The horse is now around 20 years old so definitely not a youngster and doesn't have a great market value as she's a quirky little beast.
 
Sandylou said:
Yes my friend is really stressed about opening a can of worms with this.

The horse is now around 20 years old so definitely not a youngster and doesn't have a great market value as she's a quirky little beast.
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At some point she will have to broach the subject with the owner. He may just accept a small amount of money for the horse, especially since he hasn't had much insterest in her for the guts of 10 years.

She can put it to him that she wants to secure the horses future as she will start incurring vets bills and her health will need more management as she is older etc. Really play on the financial and time management aspect, I suspect that the owner may be happy to part with the mare knowing he will never have to fork out if your friend decides to hand the horse back.

If she puts it to him that its a win win situation for both of them, he may well just comply.

I mean if it goes belly up, what is he going to do with a quirky 20 year old realistically?
 
Personally I would tell your friend not to bother. If horse is as you say, then its of no value to the owner so I would think after 9 years if they were going to take away and sell then they would have done so already. If they start bringing it up now then who knows what the owner will do, they may be wonderful and let the purchase for a pound but alternatively they may want thousands, once brought up this cannot be unsaid so what then stops an owner who had no intention of selling horse either trying to get lots from your friend or if she stands her ground, then sell to someone else. Either way your friend could lose horse or lots of money where currently she has the best of both. If you think owner may be nice enough to do the right thing then go ahead but having said that the horse was won I highly doubt this will be the case.

What she essentially has at the moment is a long term loan which can be changed at any moment, due to lack of contract, but I wouldn't go mentioning this either.



I once knew a pony that went from the owner on loan to another family and was then loaned out again until such a point no one knew who he was owned by but each loaner treated him as their own until his final days, each person was happy he was going on to teach young children how to ride and it was so nice that no one was bothered by money and his worth. If only it worked this way much more.
 
If the horse is now in its twenties it might be prudent to discuss with the owner arrangements for permission to pts and disposal. It sounds like he may be difficult to contact in an emergency and be unaware of the costs involved. It would be useful to have discussed the matter before it becomes an urgent issue.

The discussion might also help him decide on desirability of a £1 signing over.
 
Has the owner been around or had any input in the past 9 years ? If not I would be inclined to stay quiet and leave the worms in the tin.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Has the owner been around or had any input in the past 9 years ? If not I would be inclined to stay quiet and leave the worms in the tin.
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This. Apply for a new passport, say the old one is lost. It probably is! It does not indicate ownership but the horse legally has to have a passport with the keeper.
 
As far as I am aware the passport is not proof of ownership and should be with the keeper of the horse in. On DIY livery that would be your friend. Strictly speaking a vet should always see the passport before treating the horse.

I agree with the others who suggest that maintaining the status quo is the best solution.
 
ycbm said:
This. Apply for a new passport, say the old one is lost. It probably is! It does not indicate ownership but the horse legally has to have a passport with the keeper.
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Is she MCd do you know if she is can your friend remember who she was passported with if notYou will need to get her chipped as well and as has been said apply for a new passport .

PS If already chipped go through the procedure I pmd you and then apply for the replacement.
 
I sourced a nice little mare on loan for a friend back in 2005. Jumped through lots of hoops whilst the owner decided if we were suitable and the mare came with lots of rules, included a caveat that the mare returns to the owner to be PTS. The mare was unsound but I patched her up for my friend and she has gone on to be a lovely hack for a nervous rider. The owner told us to expect unannounced visits etc etc, I assured the owner they could arrive at the loanee's property whenever and they would never find anything amiss in the level of care and condition.

Eleven years on, and just a couple of visits have been made and earlier in the winter the mare who is 25 ish had a health issue. I went and had a look with the practical side of things running through my mind, then I realised that neither I or the loanee has permission to PTS, we are not the legal owner. Thankfully the blip was sortable but I decided to contact the legal owner and discuss the end of life requirements. "Your problem" was the answer.
 
popsdosh said:
PM me! there is a way under new act but its a little devious totally legal though .I am not going to put it on here though!
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I appreciate the posistion this girl is in, I have been in very similar circumstances myself in the past myself but at the end of the day this is a loan and if she want to be owner she needs to buy legally, maybe if the owner knew the full cost of owning a horse and cost of PTS etc he may well just sign the horse over.

I have two of mine out on loan so please can you PM what this is your speaking of popdosh as I need to make sure whatever it is can't happen to my horses! or is it something that can't be stopped in which case none of us should ever loan out horses we ever hope to retain ownership of/get back!??? i am very worried now
 
I had a similar situation, pony came at 4 to be broken and never went home - 14 this year. The owner never paid me to break him, on one occasion gave me 2 bales of straw and a bale of hay. About 5 years in I changed his passport into my name, told the guy and said he was mine now (by this time the guy was my boss). He never argued about it. Told him if could pay me livery, shoes, lessons etc for all that time he could have him back.

He's retired now, so no longer my boss, but if I do speak to him he always askes 'hows my pony, oh, sorry your pony' lol
 
I presume that the "loophole" that Popsdosh is talking about is through the abondonment bit of the act, this should not be useable if there is a proper loan contract in place, as the owner can produce this to show that the horse is not abandoned, but on a legitimate loan. I don't think that was the intention of the act, but people will always find ways to use legistlation in ways it wasn't originally intended! I should think that for normal loans this won't be a problem, as a contract will exist, anyone with a "gentleman's agreement" needs to get a contract sorted asap.
 
This is quite interesting really.
I have an old horse who probably isn't a mile of PTS.

I originally took him on loan from the pro trainer/producer.
The 1 year contract ran out and wasn't renewed.

Over the years I'd sent the owner the odd email and would bump into them out eventing now and again - but to all intents and purposes he was/is mine.

This lady owner passed away a couple of years ago. I didn't now she was ill and nothing has come about from will or any communication, I found out from her obituary in H&H.

I know she would have no hesitation in me taking whatever decision I needed to in relation to the horse, but should I seek something in writing from her husband (and presumably he technically owns the horse now!)

I had just been planning to put the horse down and not contacting him
 
Downton Dame said:
I was thinking that too YorksG. using the Abandonment Act to gain ownership
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The obvious best way is to sound out the owner as I guess after all this time they may even have forgotten they own her. They obviously are most likely to agree to your request. I say this as I think an owner who was weary of losing their property would most likely have checked on it in the previous 9 yrs.

Indeed any horses on loan need to have an agreement in place for the owners protection however in truth that has always been the case. I am afraid from an owners point of view the new act has some serious consequences as very short time frames are involved and we have used it but not in these same circumstances ,It has certainly helped us a lot.
 
ihatework said:
This is quite interesting really.
I have an old horse who probably isn't a mile of PTS.

I originally took him on loan from the pro trainer/producer.
The 1 year contract ran out and wasn't renewed.

Over the years I'd sent the owner the odd email and would bump into them out eventing now and again - but to all intents and purposes he was/is mine.

This lady owner passed away a couple of years ago. I didn't now she was ill and nothing has come about from will or any communication, I found out from her obituary in H&H.

I know she would have no hesitation in me taking whatever decision I needed to in relation to the horse, but should I seek something in writing from her husband (and presumably he technically owns the horse now!)

I had just been planning to put the horse down and not contacting him
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Personally I always would get in touch in this situation , I think its the nice thing to do and I dont think anybody would ever say anything to disagree with your decision. There is every chance he may not even be aware of the horse as you have heard nothing but he may be aware and your call will just draw a line under things he may wonder about.
 
Downton Dame said:
I was thinking that too YorksG. using the Abandonment Act to gain ownership
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YorksG said:
I presume that the "loophole" that Popsdosh is talking about is through the abondonment bit of the act, this should not be useable if there is a proper loan contract in place, as the owner can produce this to show that the horse is not abandoned, but on a legitimate loan. I don't think that was the intention of the act, but people will always find ways to use legistlation in ways it wasn't originally intended! I should think that for normal loans this won't be a problem, as a contract will exist, anyone with a "gentleman's agreement" needs to get a contract sorted asap.
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How utterly and morally despicable that anybody would twist a law ment to protect animals to steal a horse!! I'm just speechless that this is being encouraged, if you want to OWN a horse then BUY one, do not steal from someone who trusted you enough to LOAN you THEIR horse!!
 
If the yard can contact the owner then you do not have abandonment rights under the act. Given the age of the horse there is a good chance it had never had a passport, but she should check with owner. At this age the horse has basically no value and there is no reason the owner should want to sell elsewhere. Important your friend gets the passport in her name though so she can demonstrate to vets that she is authorised to make decisions should the need arise.
 
gnubee said:
If the yard can contact the owner then you do not have abandonment rights under the act. Given the age of the horse there is a good chance it had never had a passport, but she should check with owner. At this age the horse has basically no value and there is no reason the owner should want to sell elsewhere. Important your friend gets the passport in her name though so she can demonstrate to vets that she is authorised to make decisions should the need arise.
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Not strictly correct as long as the proper notices are placed the fact you know whos horses they are has no bearing on being able to use the act.
That comment is a general one and does not suggest in any way whats morally correct.
I have used this act and was shocked by how easy it was, dealing with the owners was a different tail but im still here.
 
So the can of worms is open and it turns out the owner isn't a reasonable person at all. He is claiming that they are "sharing" the horse despite the fact he has made no effort to see her or made any financial contribution at all in 9 years. He has said that he feels left out and is considering moving the horse elsewhere as he feels he isn't "allowed" to ride his own horse. He claims he has tried to make contact but he obviously hasn't because he has the carers contact number and there is no record of calls or texts.
So if the owner wants to take her back where does that leave the caret? This horse means the world to her! Could she claim the cost of keep from the owner? Maybe that would put him off enough to sign the horse over to the carer.
Also, with the fly grazing law, do the police trace the owner? This horse is freeze marked and I guess that should be registered to the owner so it wouldn't be difficult for the authorities to find him.
Such a sad situation for this pair, they are the best of friends and love each other more than I've seen in any other equine/human partnership 😒
 
Sandylou said:
So the can of worms is open and it turns out the owner isn't a reasonable person at all. He is claiming that they are "sharing" the horse despite the fact he has made no effort to see her or made any financial contribution at all in 9 years. He has said that he feels left out and is considering moving the horse elsewhere as he feels he isn't "allowed" to ride his own horse. He claims he has tried to make contact but he obviously hasn't because he has the carers contact number and there is no record of calls or texts.
So if the owner wants to take her back where does that leave the caret? This horse means the world to her! Could she claim the cost of keep from the owner? Maybe that would put him off enough to sign the horse over to the carer.
Also, with the fly grazing law, do the police trace the owner? This horse is freeze marked and I guess that should be registered to the owner so it wouldn't be difficult for the authorities to find him.
Such a sad situation for this pair, they are the best of friends and love each other more than I've seen in any other equine/human partnership ��
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No, she cannot claim anything. Unfortunately this is a can of worms that should have remained firmly closed...

Sorry for your friend, but the horse is not hers.
 
Sandylou said:
So the can of worms is open and it turns out the owner isn't a reasonable person at all. He is claiming that they are "sharing" the horse despite the fact he has made no effort to see her or made any financial contribution at all in 9 years. He has said that he feels left out and is considering moving the horse elsewhere as he feels he isn't "allowed" to ride his own horse. He claims he has tried to make contact but he obviously hasn't because he has the carers contact number and there is no record of calls or texts.
So if the owner wants to take her back where does that leave the caret? This horse means the world to her! Could she claim the cost of keep from the owner? Maybe that would put him off enough to sign the horse over to the carer.
Also, with the fly grazing law, do the police trace the owner? This horse is freeze marked and I guess that should be registered to the owner so it wouldn't be difficult for the authorities to find him.
Such a sad situation for this pair, they are the best of friends and love each other more than I've seen in any other equine/human partnership ��
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Under that law the police do not do any checks as they are not obliged to . You are legally obliged to inform them of the abandonment and that you are using the new law . The police will only get involved if anybody comes forward to say their horses are missing and they then put them in touch with you.
The beauty of the new law is that from when the horses were first abandoned up to their retrieval the owner has to pay all cost incurred before the horses are released. Whats more you do not need to release them without proof of ownership from the party claiming to own them.
Under any circumstances five days after you post the notices the horse then becomes your legal property to do whatever you want with.
 
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